# TSA's Groin check? Going too far? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 16, 2010, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853 "2010-11-16T14:08:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/101 "2010-11-17T03:08:15Z")
Can the puritanism of the US finally do me a favor and start objecting to people being seen naked by people they aren’t married to or something? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/102 "2010-11-17T03:25:11Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I’m all for opt out day. > > When I go through the airport I will happily breeze through the scanner and enjoy a less crowded waiting area while everyone insists on getting a pat-down. I agree with you that Opt-Out day would be awesome, but what will really happen is you’ll show up at a security line which stretches back about 5,000 people, and at that point you may as well go home. > [@](#): > > I object to all this “borderline sexual assault” stuff. Is your doctor sexually assaulting you if they grab your balls for a hernia check or touch your breasts for a breast exam? Of course not. I partially agree with you. The difference is that a doctor is a physician, a professional licensed by the State who also shares a confidentiality privilege with you, recognized by law, and who does any examination in private. No, I’m not challenging you, I’m saying I think you’re more right than wrong. > [@](#): > > These people are doing a job. You know the deal before going in. If you do not like it don’t fly. Flying is not a “right”. When flying is a condition of your employment, and the rules change after you take your job, some would argue that while you may not have a fundamental Human Right to fly, it’s nonetheless a “right” in its own way to some. Me, for example - I’ve cut back my work travel as much a humanly possible, but nonetheless there are still trips where “if you don’t go on this flight, don’t bother to come into work.” Thankfully I’m not worried about the machines; the research I helped **Cecil** with for this recent and timely column ([Is radiation from the new airport security scanners endangering my health? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2966/is-radiation-from-the-new-airport-security-scanners-endangering-my-health)) has convinced me that the risks are much lower than many other things I do. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/103 "2010-11-17T03:40:53Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Further, the TSA has women frisk women. Not to mention everyone stays clothed and it is in public (e.g. the woman is not alone and cornered). You have the option for the enhanced pat-down to be done in private. Purportedly, there exists a problem-resolution physical search which is NOT clothed. Screeners neither confirm nor fully deny this. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/104 "2010-11-17T03:52:29Z")
The safety is predicated on properly running machines ,isn’t it? Is there any calibration required? When 911 hit, the perps walked right through the xray machines. Many were not operational. The people who manned them were not well trained and made very little money. But the airlines were never chastised for their greed. They got a bundle of tax money instead. The system now is a dog and pony show. It is designed to make the flyer feel safe. It also makes a pile of money for the manufacturers of the machines who are well connected. If they are needed, where are the bombs they have found? If manhandling flyers is needed, where are the results? ---
**Author:** ![Waffle\_Decider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/77aa72/32.png) [@Waffle\_Decider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waffle_Decider)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/105 "2010-11-17T04:12:37Z")
If the claim that the enhanced pat down includes groping inside the waistband is true, do they change their gloves after molesting each passenger? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/106 "2010-11-17T04:13:09Z")
[QUOTE=OpalCat] “I wonder what would happen if you were moaning for the entire length of the pat down” [/quote] > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > 1. You’d piss someone off and they’d send you into the back for a full cavity search. Probably while saying, “Still feel like moaning, asshole?” Well, then ya gotta suck it up and moan even louder. Anything for a joke. ---
**Author:** ![bubba\_jr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@bubba\_jr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bubba_jr)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/107 "2010-11-17T04:26:32Z")
> [@](#): > > o what extent can your doctor force you to comply? Can he threaten you with fines and prosecution? Can he jeopardise your job if you refuse? My doc never told me I couldn’t make it to Omaha by 2pm, unless I could afford a private jet. The new groping procedures in place, I haven’t experienced, I can only imagine its worse. I’ve been through the Rape-a-Scan twice, the first time, I got groped, I didn’t take out my wallet, they didn’t go for my buttocks, which is where my wallet was, they went straight for my junk. They don’t care where the offending object was found, they are going straight for your junk. The wallet was in my pocket, Chester the Molester did not have to pay so much attention to my balls. The second time through, I gave the guy the “I gotta fart” smile and got passed through, but the girl friend, she had part of an underwire bra show up on the Rape-a-Scan. And once again they went straight for her junk. Hand down her pants, then they asked if she wanted to go in private, FUCK NO!!!. They wanted her to unzip her pants and pull them down a bit(quite a bit), and they felt around, then while her pants where down they wanted her to pull up her shirt so they could feel her titties. There is some 12 year old out there still spanking it over that scene. The catholic church must be thanking god, they don’t need to pay their priests so much, they are all moonlighting as TSA agents, they get their jollies and get paid. I will say that 99% of the TSA agents I’ve interacted with are very professional to your face, but a much smaller percentage have a professional attitude about the job. When I’m standing there, you shouldn’t be talking to a co-worker about how many shots you did last night, you should be trying to get my ass through security as fast as possible, that’s your job, the ones with “supervisor” badges seem to be the most useless of all. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/108 "2010-11-17T06:10:13Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > 1. You’d be arrested and charged with sexual harassment against the TSA agent doing the pat-down. Since when was sexual harassment a criminal offense? Aren’t those charges typically handled in civil courts? ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/109 "2010-11-17T09:39:45Z")
Okay, doctor vs. TSA agent: For me it’s like this. There are things an optometrist has to do that I find uncomfortable. That cataract test, for instance, where they fire an air gun into your eyes. I submit to that because it’s for my benefit; if I have cataracts, I want to know. But when the optometrist tells me “Open your eyes wide,” if I instinctively flinch, as I sometimes do, he’s not going to rise up and bark “HeyheyheyHEY! What are you so nervous about?!” and call for backup to take me to a windowless room. I haven’t seen anyone else bring this up yet, so perhaps it’s just me. But that is my fear, that submitting to a search, patdown, scan, whatever, means you really have to be **submissive**. And that non-compliance, or what even appears to be non-compliance (suppose I’m on my period when I get a groin search, and that affects my reaction?), brings extra scrutiny, fines, arrest, and Og knows what else. It’s not the touching that’s a problem for me; it’s the uncertainty that it will end there. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/110 "2010-11-17T10:11:06Z")
Over on Andrew Sullivan’s site, someone is encouraging men to ask for a pat down while dressed in a kilt. Of course a man wears nothing under the kilt. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/111 "2010-11-17T10:37:35Z")
> [@jasg](#): > > Can’t find the link right now, but saw an interesting tactic proposed yesterday. Summarized in two words: > > [Utilikilt](http://www.utilikilts.com/) and Commando If you’re going to go this route, you may as well have a large bottle of lube in the pocket of the utilikilt for them to confiscate. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/112 "2010-11-17T11:53:50Z")
Having lived in the US for one year of my life (and actually enjoying it), I _have_ been thinking about how nice it would be to return for a vacation. Now, I’d only fly to the US if I were given the choice of either going or losing my job. Or worse. Kudos, you guys are really good at turning the rest of the world against you (and I won’t even mention the great job your previous prez did on that issue). Congratulations. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/113 "2010-11-17T12:10:29Z")
\*\ \* I’d never willingly fly in this sort of environment. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/114 "2010-11-17T13:22:48Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > Better yet, how about we investigate how the Israelis seem to be able to keep their planes safe without shoving their hands up anybody’s hoo has? Yeah, that won’t fly here. They straight-out profile people. It is absolutely discriminatory, but it works. Their airline, their rules. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/115 "2010-11-17T14:40:54Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Yeah, that won’t fly here. They straight-out profile people. I wouldn’t count on that continuing to be off the table, given the level of general public outrage. Also, the [whiff of corruption](http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2010/01/02/group_slams_chertoff_on_scanner_promotion/) is making the status quo even more untenable: > [@](#): > > Since the attempted bombing of a US airliner on Christmas Day, former Homeland Security secretary Michael Chertoff has given dozens of media interviews touting the need for the federal government to buy more full-body scanners for airports. > > What he has made little mention of is that the Chertoff Group, his security consulting agency, includes a client that manufactures the machines… ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/116 "2010-11-17T15:14:32Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Yeah, that won’t fly here. They straight-out profile people. It is absolutely discriminatory, but it works. Their airline, their rules. They certainly do it inside the USA. I’ve flown El Al out of JFK and went through a security screen that both felt more secure and treated me with some respect. Metal Detector Three separate questioners A search of my luggage and carryons in front of me with anything that needed questioning asked right there I know I set off alerts because I was traveling very light for a week and a half in he middle east and my itinerary had me flying into Ben Gurion but out of Cairo. I also feel certain that a background check was done on me prior to my arrival at the airport. Likely on all passengers. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/117 "2010-11-17T16:05:48Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Both are doing their job. Their job demands it. You willingly subject yourself to it. If you do not want someone touching you “there” then don’t put yourself in the situation where that happens. No, not really. The best possible physical will, of course, include examination of the genitals, but if you don’t want it, you can certainly decline it. If the doctor wishes, he can suggest other ways to get the information he needs, from asking you detailed questions to using imaging technology. It may not be the best medical care, but it’s still your choice, and you’ll still get medical care. > [@wmfellows](#): > > What’s particularly queer is that a good portion of you lot over there seem righteously convinced this is good and proper methodology, when experienced international travellers can tell you it’s bloody daft and stupid. Idiot provincialism tied to the reign of the Security-Frightened Bunny Apparatus. I’m not sure about a “good portion”. All I’m hearing now (on the news, at school, at the bus stop, etc.) is howls of outrage, with one or two “get over its”. About the same proportion as in this thread, actually. I agree that even a “thorough” pat-down isn’t as offensive to me as the eroding of our civil liberties over the last decade, but it’s still offensive and stupid and useless. I’m not sure why “this isn’t as bad as what they’ve been doing” is an argument against protesting this latest indignity. If it gets more people to the level of outrage and things actually change to restore some of our privacy, that’s a good thing, even if I think most of them are being a bit uptight personally (although that labia twiddle is pretty horrifying, and I’d be suing over that, as well. My OB/GYN can’t do that without warning me first and getting consent.) ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/118 "2010-11-17T16:07:51Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > I also feel certain that a background check was done on me prior to my arrival at the airport. Likely on all passengers. One suggestion for implementing actual security, as opposed to security theater, was to set up a system where passengers could be pre-cleared by authorizing a background check on themeselves. Once someone has been cleared, security for them could be reduced to the basics (primarily a biometric confirmation that precleared passenger John Doe is indeed John Doe). The main objection, as I recall, is that if such a system were set up the TSA would then find it easier to subject non-participants to unreasonable indignities… ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/119 "2010-11-17T17:13:28Z")
No idea why the need for a groin check or backscatter xray. I used to go into nuclear plants with nothing more than a metal detector and explosiometer on the way in, and a radiation check on the way out, and back in the 80s they were miles more paranoid about saboutage at power plants… Why cant they be happy with a metal detector and an explosiometer? Seems they are looking for explosives more than anything… I can remember one explosiometer set so damned sensitive it would alarm on one of those tester vials of freaking perfume … at that is like 1cc of alcohol. Combine that with a bomb sniffing dog, and you should be good to go. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853/120 "2010-11-17T17:17:39Z")
The answer is simple. We will have to fly nude. Otherwise we just wont feel safe enough. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tsas-groin-check-going-too-far/560853.md?page=7)