# TSO: real music, fake performances? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 8, 2017, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tso-real-music-fake-performances/784056 "2017-04-08T16:01:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tso-real-music-fake-performances/784056/21 "2017-04-10T16:52:54Z")
> [@BubbaDog](#): > > It’s only worthless if you don’t realize that it’s a fabrication made to prove a point. Got any real world examples to compare to what is actually going on? BTW, everyone would NOT be happy if only two of the four Beatles showed up at a “Beatles” concert, no matter _who_ the back-up musicians are. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tso-real-music-fake-performances/784056/22 "2017-04-10T16:56:00Z")
So the problem is that TSO doesn’t work according to exactly the same model that rock bands use, that it’s closer to a Broadway show than the Rolling Stones? And because of this difference, they suck? I have no real opinion on their music, but this is a dumbshit reason to hate it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tso-real-music-fake-performances/784056/23 "2017-04-10T16:58:19Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > So the problem is that TSO doesn’t work according to exactly the same model that rock bands use, that it’s closer to a Broadway show than the Rolling Stones? And because of this difference, they suck? > > I have no real opinion on their music, but this is a dumbshit reason to hate it. I like to know what I am getting when I pay for a concert ticket. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tso-real-music-fake-performances/784056/24 "2017-04-10T17:02:38Z")
“Tonight, the lead role normally played by Robert DeNiro will be played by Troy McClure” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tso-real-music-fake-performances/784056/25 "2017-04-10T17:13:29Z")
This has nothing at all to do with core members of the group changing out background musicians: **2015 West Touring Group** Al Pitrelli - Guitar, music director Angus Clark - Guitar Vitalij Kuprij - Keyboards Jane Mangini - Keyboards Johnny Lee Middleton - Bass John O. Reilly - Drums Asha Mevlana - Violin Phillip Brandon - Narrator Jeff Scott Soto - Vocals April Berry - Vocals John Brink - Vocals Ava Davis - Vocals Gabriela Gunčíková - Vocals Joe Retta - Vocals Jodi Katz - Vocals Chloe Lowery - Vocals Andrew Ross - Vocals Bart Shatto - Vocals **2015 East Touring Group** Chris Caffery - Guitar Bill Hudson - Guitar Derek Wieland - Keyboards, music director Mee Eun Kim - Keyboards David Z - Bass Jeff Plate - Drums Roddy Chong - Violin Bryan Hicks - Narrator Zachary “Zak” Stevens - Vocals Russell Allen - Vocals Robin Borneman - Vocals Dustin Brayley - Vocals Rob Evan - Vocals Autumn Guzzardi - Vocals Lisa Lavie - Vocals Georgia Napolitano - Vocals Natalya Rose - Vocals Kayla Reeves - Vocals Everything is totally different, from the music director on down. If the musicians matter, then you should be hearing two different performances. If you cannot hear any differences in the shows, then it is so tightly staged that who is playing what instrument doesn’t matter too much-they are background. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tso-real-music-fake-performances/784056/26 "2017-04-10T17:21:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Got any real world examples to compare to what is actually going on? > BTW, everyone would NOT be happy if only two of the four Beatles showed up at a “Beatles” concert, no matter _who_ the back-up musicians are. I believe he was using irony to mock or convey contempt. If only there was a word to describe that… ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tso-real-music-fake-performances/784056/27 "2017-04-10T17:30:34Z")
To bring it all back to my point, it’s that more than one of us has said their concerts, for all the millions in stagecraft and lighting and thunder and roar and hoopla… lack a little something in the end. I contend that even the best “ensemble” musicians playing music as good as TSO’s (on the albums) are going to have a little bit of phoning it in, of not really being invested in the music since they’re just replaceable elements in the mix. Nothing more or less. As I said, I like TSO’s music for what it is. They pack concerts, so they bring something to the stage. But in my brief era of fandom, it was amusing to find how many fellow fans couldn’t name a single performer, and I did not go to the Xmas concert to be disappointed… but went home feeling like I’d eaten five pounds of cotton candy. No further criticism or bashing intended. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tso-real-music-fake-performances/784056/28 "2017-04-10T17:32:49Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > To bring it all back to my point, it’s that more than one of us has said their concerts, for all the millions in stagecraft and lighting and thunder and roar and hoopla… lack a little something in the end. I contend that even the best “ensemble” musicians playing music as good as TSO’s (on the albums) are going to have a little bit of phoning it in, of not really being invested in the music since they’re just replaceable elements in the mix. > > Nothing more or less. As I said, I like TSO’s music for what it is. They pack concerts, so they bring something to the stage. But in my brief era of fandom, it was amusing to find how many fellow fans couldn’t name a single performer, and I did not go to the Xmas concert to be disappointed… but went home feeling like I’d eaten five pounds of cotton candy. > > No further criticism or bashing intended. So, why the Pit? ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tso-real-music-fake-performances/784056/29 "2017-04-10T18:14:59Z")
Okay, I’ll criticize and bash. I once worked as a concert PA. Worst show I ever worked was TSO. The band, the crew, the tour staff, all had this bizarre air of superiority like they thought they were the greatest band in the history of music; they seemed to have no clue they are just a bunch of has-beens and nobodies pandering to stupid holiday audiences. Every single person associated with that show was a gigantic, arrogant asshole. They talked down to me and my people like it was everyone’s very first day, they tried to dictate to us where to get things from (they had zero clue where to find _anything_ in the area and were just looking at a map online), they made ludicrous demands (note _demands_, not requests) for things that just were not possible, and then they tried to stiff us at closing. Their music is the worst type of soulless, substance-less pandering I’ve ever heard; I’ve heard Muzak with more soul than that bullshit. Fuck TSO. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tso-real-music-fake-performances/784056/30 "2017-04-10T18:22:44Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > So, why the Pit? Because saying this in the original thread was call inappropriate (and may have been) and I didn’t want any further limitations on the topic even though my comments were fairly mild. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tso-real-music-fake-performances/784056/31 "2017-04-10T22:08:28Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > Okay, I’ll criticize and bash. > > I once worked as a concert PA. Worst show I ever worked was TSO. The band, the crew, the tour staff, all had this bizarre air of superiority like they thought they were the greatest band in the history of music; they seemed to have no clue they are just a bunch of has-beens and nobodies pandering to stupid holiday audiences. > > Every single person associated with that show was a gigantic, arrogant asshole. They talked down to me and my people like it was everyone’s very first day, they tried to dictate to us where to get things from (they had zero clue where to find _anything_ in the area and were just looking at a map online), they made ludicrous demands (note _demands_, not requests) for things that just were not possible, and then they tried to stiff us at closing. Their music is the worst type of soulless, substance-less pandering I’ve ever heard; I’ve heard Muzak with more soul than that bullshit. > > Fuck TSO. I’ve kept quiet while reading this thread, but I’ll just say I never understood what the hell was supposed to be good about TSO. I’ll be honest: I haven’t dug deep into their catalog, but all I’ve heard sounds like the heavy metal version of Yanni music to me. ---
**Author:** ![Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/channing_idaho_banks/32/250_2.png) [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2017, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tso-real-music-fake-performances/784056/32 "2017-04-10T22:19:04Z")
I worked a Trans-Siberian Orchestra show once, but I don’t work those Christmas shows anymore. It’s just not worth it. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tso-real-music-fake-performances/784056/33 "2017-04-11T13:17:01Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > I believe he was using irony to mock or convey contempt. If only there was a word to describe that… It’s not often when you can whoosh an 18 year veteran of the boards. And the name play made it that much sweeter. I’m basking in the glory now but fearfully waiting MY turn. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tso-real-music-fake-performances/784056/34 "2017-04-11T13:54:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I like to know what I am getting when I pay for a concert ticket. It sounds like you know exactly what you’re getting if you buy a ticket to one of their shows, even more so than buying a ticket to another show. Complaints about members being assholes? Sure, I can see that. Complaints that you don’t like the music? Make total sense. Even complaints that when you see bands, you prefer to see specific musicians? Fine (although that is not generally how orchestras work in my experience). But claiming that an orchestral/pyrotechnic performance is “fake”? Nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tso-real-music-fake-performances/784056/35 "2017-04-11T14:37:30Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > Worst show I ever worked was TSO. The band, the crew, the tour staff, all had this bizarre air of superiority like they thought they were the greatest band in the history of music; they seemed to have no clue they are just a bunch of has-beens and nobodies pandering to stupid holiday audiences. Dunno why the hate, **Barbie**. Sounds like your kind of crowd. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tso-real-music-fake-performances/784056/36 "2017-04-11T15:04:58Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It sounds like you know exactly what you’re getting if you buy a ticket to one of their shows, even more so than buying a ticket to another show. > > Complaints about members being assholes? Sure, I can see that. Complaints that you don’t like the music? Make total sense. Even complaints that when you see bands, you prefer to see specific musicians? Fine (although that is not generally how orchestras work in my experience). > > But claiming that an orchestral/pyrotechnic performance is “fake”? Nonsense. I never said the orchestral/pyrotechnic performance was “fake”. I said that when you have two _entirely different_ groups play the same sets, you will get two entirely different performances _unless individual talents are tamped down enough to make sure that everyone gets pretty much the same performance_. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tso-real-music-fake-performances/784056/37 "2017-04-11T15:10:08Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It sounds like you know exactly what you’re getting if you buy a ticket to one of their shows, even more so than buying a ticket to another show. How so? The advertisements don’t label the shows as “TSO East” or “TSO West” and neither do the tickets, and most people don’t get their program books until after they enter the auditorium. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tso-real-music-fake-performances/784056/38 "2017-04-11T15:36:16Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > But claiming that an orchestral/pyrotechnic performance is “fake”? Nonsense. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > I never said the orchestral/pyrotechnic performance was “fake”. I said that when you have two _entirely different_ groups play the same sets, you will get two entirely different performances _unless individual talents are tamped down enough to make sure that everyone gets pretty much the same performance_. As OP, I used the word fake to apply to the music. CZ had pretty much nailed what I meant by the word. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tso-real-music-fake-performances/784056/39 "2017-04-11T15:49:08Z")
I’ve never been to a TSO performance, for precisely the reasons outlined in this thread. Christmas music is performed because it has to be. It’s not a challenge to the performers any more, so they have no true passion. No matter how much flash and glitz is infused into it, it’s still the same song heard over and over. It’s the type of show you take elderly relatives to because it fulfills your holiday fellowship duty and they get excited by all the pretty lights. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2017, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tso-real-music-fake-performances/784056/40 "2017-04-11T21:30:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Got any real world examples to compare to what is actually going on? Manheim Steamroller uses local musicians when they travel. Lots of them. I’ve see Christmas shows by both bands and enjoyed them. Then again, I go t a concert to see a performance and hear the music, not so much to see the performers. This, to me, rates a big “meh”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tso-real-music-fake-performances/784056.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tso-real-music-fake-performances/784056.md?page=3)