# Tubby Smith leaves Kentucky: state rejoices **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 22, 2007, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tubby-smith-leaves-kentucky-state-rejoices/397092 "2007-03-22T22:30:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![I\_m\_No\_Saint](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/977dab/32.png) [@I\_m\_No\_Saint](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_m_No_Saint)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tubby-smith-leaves-kentucky-state-rejoices/397092/21 "2007-03-23T14:29:24Z")
I expect UK to go after a marquee name like Donovan, Calipari or maybe even Pitino, I’d personally love to see John Pelphrey in the role. He may not be ready for such a big-time spot but I don’t think anyone in that state would complain too loudly. And no way on Travis Ford. I spent enough time around him at Eastern Kentucky University to know what a d-bag he is. ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tubby-smith-leaves-kentucky-state-rejoices/397092/22 "2007-03-23T15:06:12Z")
Count me in the camp which thinks that Tubby’s biggest problem is a fan base that is not possible to satisfy, no matter what the team’s record is. That’s not to say that Tubby has been flawless, either in coaching or recruiting, just to say that I don’t think anyone could sastifsy Kentucky fans over the long run. I don’t see his race as being an issue. I wish him and Minnesota only the best. I don’t envy whoever tries to coach at UK next. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tubby-smith-leaves-kentucky-state-rejoices/397092/23 "2007-03-23T16:15:41Z")
It’s going to take some long green to get _anybody_ to take the Kentucky job. Who would want to deal with those kinds of expectations? And Kentucky fans are delusional if they think Donovan would leave Florida. He’s made Florida into the better job. ---
**Author:** ![Capa84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8edcca/32.png) [@Capa84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capa84)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tubby-smith-leaves-kentucky-state-rejoices/397092/24 "2007-03-23T16:48:24Z")
He’ll also never be the king as long as he is in Gainesville either. He’ll always be the #2 guy. I don’t know what he will do if UK makes a ridiculously high salary offer…I’m not sure how loyal he is to UF. ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tubby-smith-leaves-kentucky-state-rejoices/397092/25 "2007-03-23T18:05:45Z")
[QUOTE=diku] He never recruited enough in state, letting people like Chris Lofton go out of state. You know, he was Mr. Basketball in Kentucky. You may want to have a look at him. [/QUOTE] Eh, the title of Kentucky Mr. Basketball doesn’t mean nearly as much as it used to. Since Dwayne Morton won it in 1990, I would say that only three subsequent winners have turned out to be especially desirable players – Jason Osborne in 1993, J.R. VanHoose in 1998 and, of course, Lofton in 2004. Lotta no-names mixed in with those guys. It got bad enough that the 2006 winner wound up going D-II. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tubby-smith-leaves-kentucky-state-rejoices/397092/26 "2007-03-23T18:12:53Z")
Interesting philosophical question: is a coach better off making, say, $3 million a year at a school like Texas or Florida (where the pressure is less, where fans are ecstatic if you make the Final Four now and then, where another sport will always be #1, and where a 23 win season doesn’t seem like a horrible disappointment) or will a storied program (Kansas, Kentucky, Duke, North Carolina, UCLA) that’s fallen on hard times always be an irresistible attraction? I mean, if Kentucky offered Texas coach Rick Barnes (this is hypothetical- I’m NOT suggesting Kentucky wants him, just asking “what if?”) an outlandish contract, would he be nuts to take it, or would he be nuts to turn it down? I could make a strong argument both ways! I mean, the money is phenomenal at Kentucky, but it’s pretty dang good at Texas, too. Most coaches are such workaholics, they’d never get to spend the extra money, anyway! It’s the mirror image of the decision that faced Mack Brown a few years back. He’d done very, very good job at a basketball oriented school (North Carolina), but felt he HAD to take an elite football job (Texas) when it became available. As good as his position is now, would a Rick Barnes just HAVE to take a job from a school like Kentucky if it were offered? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tubby-smith-leaves-kentucky-state-rejoices/397092/27 "2007-03-23T18:26:49Z")
[QUOTE=Capa84] He’ll also never be the king as long as he is in Gainesville either. He’ll always be the #2 guy. [/QUOTE] King of what? #2 to _whom_? He has one NCAA championship and is working on another. He is out-recruiting _everybody_. He has back-to-back SEC titles. From where I sit, Donovan is not #2 to anybody at this point. Like I said, Kentucky fans are delusional. ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tubby-smith-leaves-kentucky-state-rejoices/397092/28 "2007-03-23T18:33:54Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] King of what? #2 to _whom_? He has one NCAA championship and is working on another. He is out-recruiting _everybody_. He has back-to-back SEC titles. From where I sit, Donovan is not #2 to anybody at this point. Like I said, Kentucky fans are delusional. [/QUOTE] I believe he means #2 to the Florida football program. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tubby-smith-leaves-kentucky-state-rejoices/397092/29 "2007-03-23T18:39:47Z")
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn] I believe he means #2 to the Florida football program. [/QUOTE] :smack: See, football doesn’t even cross my mind this time of year. But to address _that_ point, I know quite a few Florida fans. While it’s true that historically they were focused on football, I’ve seen them get quite fanatical about roundball lately. I don’t think Donovan is lacking adoration among the Gator nation. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Who](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Doctor\_Who](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Who)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tubby-smith-leaves-kentucky-state-rejoices/397092/30 "2007-03-23T18:50:34Z")
My take: I think it’s a good move for both everyone involved. **Kentucky Basketball:** KY is a storied program. It’s one of the few schools where basketball trumps football. That’s pretty rare ESPECIALLY in the SEC. To the athletic department, it doesn’t have a damn thing to do with Tubby’s race. If he had consistently won or challenged for National Championships, then there would be no problem keeping him around. Instead, KY doesn’t make the Final Four in ten straight years. Forget about it. Move on and look for someone who can get it done. \*\*Kentucky Fans: \*\* Certainly there was/is a small group of rabid, racist fans who were never going to accept Tubby (despite his National Championship), and they won’t accept anyone who’s black. But overall, it’s just a fact that KY fans demand more. And it was pretty apparent that most KY fans had given up on Tubby. Look at the vitriol in this thread from diehard Wildcats. And I don’t have any problem with it - he was their coach, they gave him years and years, and he couldn’t get it done. Once a coach loses the respect of his fans, it’s tough as hell to get it back. The fans will be happier seeing someone else take a crack at it. **Tubby Smith:** I like Tubby, and I think he made a good move. He’s a good coach. I think his biggest problem was that he wasn’t a great (or even good) recruiter at KY. At Minnesota, he will have a few advantages. He can lockdown Minnesota, and sneak over into Michigan and steal a few players. Plus, he won’t have Pitino sitting across the state from him. I think he’ll make them a decent program - not a year-in-year-out competitor, but certainly much much better. **Minnesota:** Definite upgrade, despite Tubby’s flaws. The Big 10 is going to get 4-5 teams into the tournament every year. With a little coaching, Minnesota can start competing right away for that bottom spot. So, I’m happy with it for everyone. And truly excited to see who KY picks up. My money is on Calipari, but today on Sportscenter, they were hyping Mark Few from Gonzaga. I’d be seriously interested to see how he would do at a program like KY. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tubby-smith-leaves-kentucky-state-rejoices/397092/31 "2007-03-23T19:13:38Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] It’s going to take some long green to get _anybody_ to take the Kentucky job. Who would want to deal with those kinds of expectations? [/QUOTE] What expectations are those, exactly? Not failing to take the winningest program in NCAA history to zero Final 4s with your own players? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tubby-smith-leaves-kentucky-state-rejoices/397092/32 "2007-03-23T19:34:25Z")
Of course you meant to say, “Commonwealth rejoices,” right, **brianjedi**? 😉 [http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3\_307.html](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_307.html) ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tubby-smith-leaves-kentucky-state-rejoices/397092/33 "2007-03-23T21:13:07Z")
[QUOTE=Jimmy Chitwood] What expectations are those, exactly? Not failing to take the winningest program in NCAA history to zero Final 4s with your own players? [/QUOTE] Mark Bradley (a UK alum) describes the phenomenon nicely in [this column](http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/sportscolumns/entries/2007/03/22/tubbys): > [@](#): > > …There’s a certain strain of Kentucky fan that believes the pecking order should be as it was in the ’40s and ’50s, when Adolph Rupp rarely lost a conference game and often won the national championship. > > That’s the thing about Kentucky: It keeps trying to live in the long-ago past. Rick Pitino rekindled the Wildcats’ sense of entitlement in the ’90s, but it should be noted that Smith won exactly as many NCAA titles as Pitino. And the argument conveniently levied against Smith — that his 1998 championship was achieved only with Pitino’s players — ignores the reality that Smith was (and is) a better bench coach than Pitino has ever been. > > …There’s no coach who’s going to make the Big Blue as dominant as it was under Rupp, or even Pitino. The world has changed. The SEC has changed. And as Bradley also points out, Smith never missed the tournament, never failed to win 20 games, and won 5 SEC titles in his ten-year tenure. Do you really expect to find a coach who will do better? The SEC is a helluva lot more balanced than it was in Rupp’s day, and that’s not about to change. If you think you’re going to find a coach who averages an SEC title at a better clip than every other year, your expectations are unrealistic. ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tubby-smith-leaves-kentucky-state-rejoices/397092/34 "2007-03-23T21:45:16Z")
My concern for Tubby is that if he can’t recruit at a school like UK that practically recruits itself, how is he going to do it at Minnesota, a school with nowhere near the tradition and appeal? ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tubby-smith-leaves-kentucky-state-rejoices/397092/35 "2007-03-23T21:49:15Z")
Whoever the Wildcats pick is going to need to rustle up a center right quick. [ESPN.com](http://ESPN.com) is reporting that Randolph Morris has flown the coop (again) to sign with the Knicks. > **[Knicks sign Kentucky center Morris to 2-year deal](https://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=2809958)** > > The New York Knicks signed Kentucky center Randolph Morris to a two-year, $1.6 million contract Friday, an NBA league source told ESPN Insider Chad Ford. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2007, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tubby-smith-leaves-kentucky-state-rejoices/397092/36 "2007-03-23T22:50:58Z")
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn] My concern for Tubby is that if he can’t recruit at a school like UK that practically recruits itself, how is he going to do it at Minnesota, a school with nowhere near the tradition and appeal? [/QUOTE] He recruited and coached just fine at Georgia before going to Kentucky. I think Minnesota will be very happy with Tubby. All-everything-and-still-at-large recruit Patrick Patterson [doesn’t sound too happy about Tubby’s departure](http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070322/SPORTS03/70322047): > [@](#): > > “It has somewhat of an affect for me going to Kentucky,” he told the station. “If I went to Kentucky, Tubby Smith is the guy I would want to mentor me in the game of basketball. He’d be one of the main focuses on me going to Kentucky. ---
**Author:** ![brianjedi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@brianjedi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianjedi)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2007, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tubby-smith-leaves-kentucky-state-rejoices/397092/37 "2007-03-24T03:55:13Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] He recruited and coached just fine at Georgia before going to Kentucky. I think Minnesota will be very happy with Tubby. All-everything-and-still-at-large recruit Patrick Patterson [doesn’t sound too happy about Tubby’s departure](http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070322/SPORTS03/70322047): [/QUOTE] If Patrick Patterson has this to say: “‘It has somewhat of an affect for me going to Kentucky,’ he told the station. ‘If I went to Kentucky, Tubby Smith is the guy I would want to mentor me in the game of basketball. He’d be one of the main focuses on me going to Kentucky.’” Then I have this to say: “If you wanted to play for Tubby Smith at Kentucky so bad, Patrick, maybe you should have committed back on Signing Day instead of jerking a half-dozen schools around. You’d have saved his job.” And God help me, I agree with Gregg Doyel for once. > **[SportsLine](https://www.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/10080776/)** > [@](#): > > At Kentucky, Tubby underachieved. There’s not a lot of debate about that one. In the smaller sense he overachieved with this team, because his 2006-07 squad didn’t have blatant NCAA Tournament talent and yet Tubby got the Wildcats there with ease. But he’s at Kentucky, not Toledo. With so much wind in his sails at Kentucky, he should have had Duke-like talent. UNC-like talent. Not the dreck he was starting at point guard and power forward. > > Tubby was a victim of himself, of his own confidence. He’s so good at X’s and O’s – and he is really, really good with a clipboard – that he thought he could hire whoever he wanted for his staff and be able to get it done. And the evidence is overwhelming that he could not. > > Look at Tubby’s resume. There have been times in his career when he has won big, but those times almost always were with someone else’s players. He was at Tulsa for only four years, which means he was winning for most of that time with someone else’s recruits. He was at Georgia for just two years, which means he won completely with someone else’s players. > > At Kentucky he won his national championship in his first year, with Rick Pitino’s roster. In the last two years, stuck with players that were signed solely by Tubby’s staff, Kentucky lost a total of 25 games. That’s not Kentucky. That’s Kennesaw State. Doyel’s right. Make all the excuses about parity and “it’s not the same game” as you want, but at the end of the day, 25 losses in two years is not the performance the winningest program in college basketball deserves. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2007, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tubby-smith-leaves-kentucky-state-rejoices/397092/38 "2007-04-05T19:40:20Z")
[QUOTE=Capa84] He’ll also never be the king as long as he is in Gainesville either. He’ll always be the #2 guy. I don’t know what he will do if UK makes a ridiculously high salary offer…I’m not sure how loyal he is to UF. [/QUOTE] [Pretty loyal](http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaab/news;_ylt=Ar0SFJ8Qq7MgL4l3vDk.LD3evbYF?slug=ap-florida-donovan&prov=ap&type=lgns), as it turns out. I gotta say … this is the only message board I’ve seen where so many more people thought Donovan was staying rather than going. I guess people are used to Internet rumors panning out these days. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2007, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tubby-smith-leaves-kentucky-state-rejoices/397092/39 "2007-04-05T19:47:16Z")
[QUOTE=bordelond] I gotta say … this is the only message board I’ve seen where so many more people thought Donovan was staying rather than going. [/QUOTE] Speaks for our intelligence, I think. 😉 And good for Donovan for being smart instead of greedy. The guy who took over for him at Florida would have had been walking into a better job than Donovan would have at Kentucky. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2007, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tubby-smith-leaves-kentucky-state-rejoices/397092/40 "2007-04-05T19:59:53Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] Speaks for our intelligence, I think. 😉 And good for Donovan for being smart instead of greedy. The guy who took over for him at Florida would have had been walking into a better job than Donovan would have at Kentucky. [/QUOTE] Agreed. There’s maybe 20 or so sports fans nationwide that agree. UK basketball and its fans shouldn’t take their tradition for granted (cf. Notre Dame football in the 80s, Alabama football today). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tubby-smith-leaves-kentucky-state-rejoices/397092.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tubby-smith-leaves-kentucky-state-rejoices/397092.md?page=3)