Tunguska black hole reconsidered

The possibility of anti-matter has been raised at least three times that I know of. (“contraterrene matter”, Lincoln La Paz called it, in the first such case I know of. La Paz had been translating Kulik’s expedition reports into English for Popular Astronomy, and got bit by the antimatter bug)

I’ve never heard anything about evidence of antimatter due to elevated levels of metal in sediment. I know of no reason why antimatter explosion would lead top elevated levels of metal. This sounds like you’re misremembering the evidence for a comet strike causing the mass extinction at the K-T boundary (elevated levels of iridium, which was in the meteorite).
My argument against the anti-matter theory is that 1.) It’s not a necessary possibility – more prosaic explanations can cover the observed facts (a falling comet is prosaic, next to antimatter), and 2.) The amount of antimatter was jussssst right – it didn’t explode so high in the atmosphere that there were no ground effects, yet it didn’t explode so far down that it left a crater on the ground. (The Tunguska event was undeniably an “air burst” – there was no crater, and trees underneath had their branches stripped away, leaving upright trunks that resembled “telegraph poles”, in Kulik’s words.) Of course, you have the same issue with any mechanism, but I think it’s easier to accept a cometary fragment making it most of the way down and exploding (all those unstable radicals, released by frictional heating) than it is to accept a chunk of antimatter making it most of the way down without catastrophically exploding.

Sorry, DDG, but I’m pretty sure you’re badly misusing the term “theory,” at least from a scientist’s perspective.

If he had evidence or proof for his assertion, then he’d have a theory. Until then, all he has is conjecture.

Hence the main-banner title of the website …

  • Kh

Just a note about this now obsolete term.

Contraterrene (or CT) matter was the standard term for antimatter until about the 1950s. I found a reference for a La Paz article on Tunguska that appeared in 1948.

Jack Williamson wrote a series of stories for Astounding Science Fiction in the 1940s about “the struggle to control minus-matter.” The series was eventually published in two books, Seetee Shock and Seetee Ship, where Seetee is a transliteration of the letters “C” and “T”.

The notion of control was central, because he understood both the enormous power that would come from the meeting and annihilation of regular matter and CT matter, and that this power, if harnessable, would be the ultimate for anyone wanting a spaceship: a seetee ship.

But he also had beliefs that we no longer hold, as judged from this excerpt he put into a “spaceman’s handbook”:

If this belief was common in the 1940s, then the association between a falling piece of CT matter and the Tunguska explosion would be a fascinating extrapolation. I’m surprised that it wasn’t suggested even before La Paz.

As webmaster for the three-ring circus known as www.vurdalak.com, I wanted to thank everybody for taking the time to review, and comment on, that site in its pre-launch state. “Jack Adler” told me the acid test would be to offer it up to the tender mercies of a posse of confirmed skeptics, and, lo, he was right.

So far I’ve got the following fixes noted:

  • A much more detailed disclaimer for the “seminar sign up” sheet including the fact that (a) signup is free, (b) it’s used only to advise folks when the next seminar is posted, and © you don’t need to sign up to view the new seminars, as long as you don’t mind checking back all the time.

  • Substitution of “churn” for “crank,” as in "Doctor Jack churns out a new soapbox seminar

  • Try to deal with the “what is truth” issue better than Pontius Pilate did.

…anything else?

Thanks again,
-Kh

Jack did get back to me with an answer. It’s kind of lengthy, though, and I’m not sure what rules of etiquette govern this message board. Would anyone object to a post of 800 or 900 words?

Jenkoul

Dispel our ignorance. Let it rip!

Thanks, samclem – and, hey, it’s my ignorance too. Anyway, here goes:

Bill –

Chuck Sheffield [that’s Dr. Charles Sheffield, former president of the American Astronautical Society – Jk] did all the hard work a long time ago. Using the assumptions of the people who wrote the “nuclear winter” papers, 1 megaton = 4.2e22 erg. 1 nuclear war = 25,000 megatons = 1e27 ergs. So you’re talking a thousand times that. Sort of like World War III fought every day for 3 years. (Sheffield “joked” in passing that this assumes all missiles are fired and they all work. As a Defense Department insider, he had reason to doubt that.)

But anyway it makes for a good metric here. Some comparatives:

  • Available tidal energy (mainly the Moon braking the Earth) is a quarter of a Nuclear War per day. Course, we tap into hardly any of that. It goes into heat. Still, that adds up to your 10,000 gigaton bogey every 12 years.

  • The blow-up of Thira, which wiped out Minoan civilization in 1470 BC, equaled 1 Nuclear War. (“fought” in this really small area.)

  • Halley’s comet, about 10 km across, would impact with 170 million megatons, or 170,000 gigatons, or 7,000 Nuclear Wars. That’s an order of magnitude bigger than what you’re talking about. Sheffield told us to expect one of those events about once every billion years.

We can let Chuck out now. I’ll drive from here on.

Before the Solar System got cleaned up (mostly by bodies running into other bodies) this presumably happened a lot more often. We’ve probably taken at least half-a-dozen such wallops – including the one that ripped the moon out of the area that became the Pacific Ocean.

What would a ten thousand gigaton explosion feel like? Well, you can rest easy, relatively speaking – it would not bust the planet apart. I figured once (and maybe I sent you the numbers) that it would take total conversion of a cube of rock 11 kilometers on a side to shatter the Earth. (I think it’s pretty safe to say that no one will ever build a portable planetbuster!)

Still and all, a 10 K gigaton blast would for sure wreck the biosphere and maybe sterilize the planet. Maybe. But that assumes the energy is released in an instant. at the surface of the world.

The Earth is 40,000 km around. Surface area is 5,000,000 square km. Dividing, we get 2 megatons/square kilometer. We’d certainly feel that, if it came up all at once and was all expressed as mechanical shock. But I don’t think it would.

The tenth-of-a-second figure [for the final stage of black-hole evaporation – Jk] is irrelevant. Newton solved the differential equations of heat conduction a while back. And what he showed is thermal gradients tend to flatten out. Sharp wavefronts blur. Your backyard gets annual jolts of hot and cold, but there aren’t a steady series of thermal “rings” (like tree rings) sinking towards the center of the planet. Anybody who’s got a hand shovel can dig down to where the forefront is overtaken by the rearguard and the temperature is constant throughout the cycle. That’s why there’s permafrost in Tunguska.

It’s been a good 4 billion years and Earth is still leaking the heat of that 11-kilometer cube of rock-equivalent (the same energy it would take to blow the Earth to smithereens was, of course, released when it condensed from fragments). The Earth weighs six sextillion tons. Have to write that out to count the zeroes. 6,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Six-times-ten-to-the-twenty-first tons. 6e24 kilograms. 6e27 grams.

One calorie heats one gram of water one degree C. Iron has a specific heat of 0.107, so 0.107 calories heat one gram of iron one degree C. … So 6.42e26 calories will heat the entire Earth one degree C.

One erg is 0.2388e-8 calories. 1e30 ergs is 2.388e21 calories.

The planet will warm 2.388e21/6.42e26 = 0.0000038 degrees C. Hold onto your hats, boys! Here it comes!

Well, that’s a pretty crude calculation. There’d be a lot more warming at the center. But even the rough numbers are enough to show that an energy release that’s beyond the imagination of us humans is just peanuts to a world.

The way to tell for sure is to compare it with the rate at which energy is released through radioactive decay. <http://www.public.iastate.edu/~astro.342/ps4.pdf> (Ah, the wonders of the Internet).

4e-8 ergs/gram/second x 6e27 grams =2.4e20 ergs/second = 7.573824e27 erg/year. This compares pretty well with world-wide energy release in earthquakes; 1e28 ergs/year (same source) – so figure 100 years of earthquake energy.

But how long would it take for this to trickle out? I’m no geophysicist, any more than your friend is, so take what follows with a grain or two of NaCl.

If the extra energy doesn’t induce a phase change in the core (it is under a couple gazillion atmospheres of pressure, after all), then all that happens is that the iron heats up a bit. Have to study a phase-diagram of Iron under those conditions (if one exists) to tell for sure. As an analogy, water at supercritical pressure will not flash into steam no matter how much heat you apply.

If the strain can’t be relieved by a radical volume change, the energy remains as heat and comes out real slow. (My old Thermo Prof used to describe adiabatic processes by telling us to think like the apparatus was “wrapped in a mile of rock wool”. Here, you’ve got 4000 miles.)

Scientists might notice the seismic waves. Sloshing in the core might move compass needles. The year might lengthen or shorten by a second or so…

John Q. Public might notice, too. But the headlines – assuming there were any – would more likely read “Insurers pay unexpected number of Earthquake and Volcano claims” than “Opportunities for investing in Arizona Ocean-front Real Estate,” much less “The End is Near!”. And it would pass entirely unnoticed if it took a millennium or two. I’d bet closer to a couple of million years.

Hope that helps,
Jack

It wuz ay-leens. I seen ‘em. Yep, I seen ‘em land out behind the tool shed, an’ they asked me if’n I wanted to take a ride in younder flyin’ saucer and go to Pluto, so I says, shoot, I reckon so.

So up we went, me an three other guys, an they was little, an’ green, an’ they was bug-eyed an’ didn’ talk. No, they didn’ talk, but they spoke to me by mental telemetry. Yes sir, they spoke to me usin’ nothin’ but their brains, and they tole me we was flyin’ over Russia on our way to Pluto. So I says “Russia? Well, shoot, you best be careful ‘cause them Russians is sly, see, and they got miss-iles an’ all them other things that they got to shoot some poor unsuspectin ay-leen down with.”

Yep, I tole ‘em, but they didn’ pay me no mind. No, so we was flyin’ over Russia without a care, and all sudden CRACK! BANG! Why, I don’t know for certin’ what it was, but it was bad, and it hit us square, and we was losing altimetry an’ carousing towards the ground like we was greased lightnin’ headin’ for Ben Franklin’s kite. Well, the little green fella’s got even more bug-eyed than before, an’ they starts to twistin’ knobs and pullin’ cranks. But it wa’n’t no good. No, I reckoned we were goners. And I was awful down in the mouth 'cause I was all worked up to go see Pluto, and now that looked mighty unlikely.

Then it occurred to me that any ship’s gotta have ballast, so I tole ‘em…not with my voice understand, ‘cause we was using brains to talk like I said, "Well, hey there, I know it’s a long shot, but maybe if you dump some of th’ ballast, we might right her and fly this contraption home…at least back to th’ farm where I got lots o’ tools and other such things you could maybe use to patch 'er up with."

Well, I reckon they thought this was a good idea…I dunno, maybe they was just stumped for a better one, but anyhow, they tole me they had them some o’ them Death Ray Cannons, and they were mighty heavy. Seemed at that point it was sorta late for the Death Ray Cannon, and we would be lucky to save our own hides, never mind puttin’ the hurt on them Russians for what they done, so I says “Why that’s a good idear if you think it’ll work.”

So they cast off the Death Ray Cannons, an’ shoot! We went up like a gol dang balloon, and flew around all this way an’ that ‘cause nobody was expectin’ such a thing. We dang near crashed into th’ Moon afore they regained control. And as we was flyin’ back home, I looked out th’ winder an’ saw away down below them Death Ray Cannons, all full of unfired Death Ray amnishun just flew down an’ blew up like ten thousand 4th o’ Ju-lies, and I said “Hooooo-WEE, I think you folks taught them Russians a thing or two after all!” And we was dancin’ around and cheerin’ (all quiet-like, cause, like I said, they don’t use their mouths to cheer, but their brains) and wonderin’ if th’ President would give us the Gold Star.

Well, we got her back to th’ farm, and I patched her up near as I could reckon would get them little green fellas back home in one piece. They thanked me an’ tole me they’d be back an’ we’d go to Pluto like they said. I said “Well, take yer time, there’s no hurry, but I’m much obliged, and Pluto sounds like a right lovely place, so y’all come back now.” And that’s how it happened, and that’s how there was this big blast over in Russia. Served 'em right, it did. Meteor. Shoot! It was ay-leens, and they knew it, but they knew they was licked and can’t fess up. Yessir, on my granny’s grave!

I knew the late Charles Sheffield. He was a stately and dignified Englishman, and nobody to my knowledge referred to him, or ever even thought of him, as “Chuck.” It is as beyond belief as, well, antimatter asteroids.

I’m sure that’s how you remember him. OTOH, no disrespect, but check out the conclusion to Nick Pollotta’s brief, heartfelt testimonial at <http://www.sfwa.org/News/sheffield.htm> (emphasis added):

I guess Jack just took him up on it while he was still among us.

-Jk

Reading through the most recent entries, I followed them back up to this. I don’t recall the figures Krinov gave, but this seems really high. One of the papers from the forties or fifties on the Tunguska event used various means to estimate the size of the explosion (range of damage, range of light/sound burst, size of microbarometer pulses and seismogram pulses, etc.) All of these suggested an explosion on the orders of tens of kilotons, not megatons – the size of a Hiroshima bomb, rather than Castle Bravo.

Charles was a Really Nice Guy and had a good sense of humor. I can imagine that he teased someone to call him a name that he knew nobody would ever use.

All I can say is, in my presence - and that includes a lot of time in SFWA (the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America, of which Charles was president at one time) where everybody is old buddies with everybody - nobody ever referred to him as anything but Charles. Including his last wife.

Interesting, though, that both Nick and I independently referred to him as “dignified.” He was that. One of the last of the old-time gentlemen in sf, along with, say, James Gunn and Robert Silverberg.

Anyway, to unhijack this just a touch, I want to recommend his book Borderlands of Science. Although it doesn’t specifically mention Tunguska, it looks at dozens of extensions and extrapolations from the known, using an expert’s eye at a layman’s level.

This seems to be a muddle of two different theories of the moon’s origin, the “born from the Pacific” hypothesis that was discredited ages ago (A: no credible mechanism; B: continental drift renders the whole thing meaningless) and the modern “accretion from the debris resulting from a collision with a Mars-sized object” hypothesis.

Loopydude, I take it that you are, like my wife and me, a fan of the Analog stories about Bubba’s Fix-it Shop and Alien Spacecraft Repair. :wink:

Well I’ll be a bare-arsed monkey’s uncle! Can’t git away with nuthin’ aroun’ here!

John,

Nice catch! That was my ill-advised addition – mea muddle culpa! I was editing down Jack’s answer late last night (it was longer even than what got posted) and thought I’d spotted a chance to improve upon the original. Always a mistake.

– Jk

The reference to Krinov’s Giant Meteorites (Pergamon 1966) is from Jack O. Burns, George Greenstein, and Kenneth L. Verosub’s “The Tungus Event as a Small Black Hole: Geophysical Considerations” (Mon. Nat R. astr. Soc. 1976, 175, pp. 355-357). The passage in question (p. 356) reads “…the estimated energy released into the atmosphere by the Tungus event, 10^22-10^24 erg (Krinov 1966).” (Regrettably, my copy of Giant Meteorites is at my other site just now, but I can try to run down the exact passage for you over the weekend.)

In the meantime, there’s this, from Nikolai Vasil’ev’s “Paradoxes of the Tunguska Meteorite Problem,” (Tomsk division of the All-Union Astronomical-Geodesic Society, Proceedings of the Higher Educational Institutes, x 3 “Physics“ 1992, pp.111-117), Russian original on line at <ТУНГУСКА::ПРОБЛЕМА::ПАРАДОКСЫ ПРОБЛЕМЫ ТУНГУССКОГО МЕТЕОРИТА>:

Ten to forty megatons seems to be a generally accepted figure for the magnitude of the Tunguska explosion. In another article <http://www.galisteo.com/tunguska/docs/tmpt.html>, Vasil’ev cites no fewer that 13 references for it.

All that said, I should also point out that neither the Vurdalak Conjecture nor the original Jackson-Ryan hypothesis depends on a blast of such magnitude. If anything, it is the Burns-Greenstein-Verosub objection to J-R that depends critically on those 10e22-24 ergs, to justify the putatively enormous thermal and seismic effects which figure so prominently in their attempt to disprove Jackson-Ryan.

-Jk

I hadn’t noticed this before. Even supposing a release of 40 megatons, how do you get a mass of a hundred trillion tons out of that? About the lowest speed an impacter is going to have relative to the Earth is 30 km/s, and at those speeds, an object of a mere few hundred thousand tons mass (that’s a comet less than a hundred meters across, or an even smaller rock) is going to have that much kinetic energy.

A good point. In the interests of turnaround time, let me try answering it without getting Jack in the loop.

I don’t have the figures ready to hand, but everything I’ve read and can recall says you’re order-of-magnitude right about the mass needed to yield a 40 megaton energy release. That’s if the impactor in question is a comet (or asteroid). It’s relatively easy for an infalling comet/asteroid to transform its energy of motion into heat and blast effects, via atmospheric friction. That’s why they tend to burn up.

But we’re not talking anything like a comet or asteroid here. And the question is not how much total kinetic energy an object possesses, it’s how much of that energy it can transfer into its surround. A primordial black hole has at most an atom-sized cross-section, giving it, to all intents and purposes, zero air resistance. At least for the Jackson-Ryan model (subsequently followed by Burns, Greenstein, and Verosub), all such an object has got to work with is its mass. It’s got to accomplish all its effects via its gravitational field alone.

To quote, omitting the formulas, from the original (Albert A. Jackson IV and Michael P. Ryan, Jr., “Was the Tungus Event due to a Black Hole?” Nature, 245, September 14, 1973, pp. 88-89):

Starting from essentially the same assumptions – energy release between 0.2 and 40 megatons, produced solely by gravitational interaction – Burns et al [1976 op. cit.] arrived at the same (actually a couple orders higher) range for the mass. And, at the low end of the range, 10^20 g = 10^17 kg = 10^14 metric tonnes = 100 trillion metric tonnes. QED.

Note, however, that this is at the low end of the range. Working with mass alone, a hundred trillion tonnes only yields something like a couple tenths of a megaton energy release. The high-end forty-megaton estimate for the Tunguska blast would require a primordial black hole massing in the tens of quadrillions of tonnes!

Again, I stress, that was the story as of the mid-seventies, net of all the developments in black hole studies since.

– Jk