# Tupperware inc files for bankruptcy 70s and 80s kids sob

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tupperware-inc-files-for-bankruptcy-70s-and-80s-kids-sob/1007457>\
**Category:** Cafe Society\
**Created:** [September 19, 2024, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tupperware-inc-files-for-bankruptcy-70s-and-80s-kids-sob/1007457 "2024-09-19T04:25:09Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 3

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**Author:** ![fedman1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e495f1/32.png) [@fedman1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman1)\
**Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tupperware-inc-files-for-bankruptcy-70s-and-80s-kids-sob/1007457/41 "2024-09-20T01:47:55Z")

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don’t forget Amway?

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**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\
**Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tupperware-inc-files-for-bankruptcy-70s-and-80s-kids-sob/1007457/42 "2024-09-20T01:52:43Z")

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> [@Sylvanz](#):
>
> A not complete list: tupperware, lb price, make-up, crystal and glassware, home decorating, adult toys edible underwear etc. I’ve been resentfully, invited and, “entertained,” at all of them, and probably missed some.

What is or was “lb price”?

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**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\
**Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tupperware-inc-files-for-bankruptcy-70s-and-80s-kids-sob/1007457/43 "2024-09-20T02:05:49Z")

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> [@Musicat](#):
>
> At the end, I wonder if Tupperware still made the human-sized containers like the ones the twins slept in to stay ever-fresh & young in _Eerie, Indiana._
> 
> I forget – did the twins need to be “burped” for the effect to happen?

Looks like yes.  
(Skip to about 17:10 if doesn’t start there.)

https://www.youtube.com/embed/nYaMzKHn-ww?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque&start=1030

Long live Forever Wear™.

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**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\
**Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tupperware-inc-files-for-bankruptcy-70s-and-80s-kids-sob/1007457/44 "2024-09-20T02:12:20Z")

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Yeeaah, I live about35 min. from Ada, often referred to as the Amway District of America. I got sucked into one “unique buisness opportunity” by a “friend.” My only excuse was I was young and I had heard of Amway, and what a scam it was/is, but had never heard how it worked. Never again.

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**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\
**Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tupperware-inc-files-for-bankruptcy-70s-and-80s-kids-sob/1007457/45 "2024-09-20T02:19:17Z")

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> [@Dewey\_Finn](#):
>
> What is or was “lb price”?

LB Price was a mlm that sold all sorts of crap. I remember degreaser and spices. I actually had the, “joy” of being a distributor between jobs. My Mother in law loved the stuff and got me the gig. I mercifully got a job after a month.

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**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\
**Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tupperware-inc-files-for-bankruptcy-70s-and-80s-kids-sob/1007457/46 "2024-09-21T08:24:25Z")

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My first wife’s mother was a Tupperware distributor with lots of people below her. After we got married and moved to Japan, we lived with them for a while or so as we were getting set up.

Every damn conversation got sucked into into talking about Tupperware. It was a black hole that could never be escaped from. My ex-FIL was really quiet and never said much, so he just let his wife talk all the time.

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**Author:** ![xanthous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/53a042/32.png) [@xanthous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xanthous)\
**Post date:** [September 25, 2024, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tupperware-inc-files-for-bankruptcy-70s-and-80s-kids-sob/1007457/47 "2024-09-25T12:22:58Z")

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Funny 70s Tupperware story: we practically lived at the public pool during our childhood summers, and every day my mom would bring a giant batch of popcorn in our giant square Tupperware container. I mean, this thing must’ve been 20” square by 10” deep. At LEAST. It was like winning the snack lottery when she took off the lid—there was an ocean of popcorn in there—we were the envy of the whole pool! Fast forward to a few years ago when I was reminiscing with my siblings and we started looking for that giant tub online. Turns out the actual container is 12” x 5”—we couldn’t stop laughing. Every one of us remembered it being an embarrassment of riches size.

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**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\
**Post date:** [September 25, 2024, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tupperware-inc-files-for-bankruptcy-70s-and-80s-kids-sob/1007457/48 "2024-09-25T13:43:40Z")

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> [@xanthous](#):
>
> our giant square Tupperware container

We have a huge orange Tupperware bowl with a white lid. When we go to picnics/parties/family events it is my go-to for holding Cowboy Caviar.

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**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\
**Post date:** [September 25, 2024, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tupperware-inc-files-for-bankruptcy-70s-and-80s-kids-sob/1007457/49 "2024-09-25T13:52:28Z")

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Am i alone on being a child of the 70s who grew up with Tupperware and disliked it? Odors clung to it. The lids were fiddly. My childhood tupperware memories are why i mostly store stuff in glass and metal now.

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**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\
**Post date:** [September 25, 2024, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tupperware-inc-files-for-bankruptcy-70s-and-80s-kids-sob/1007457/50 "2024-09-25T14:01:45Z")

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Nope- for the most part I didn’t like it either. There were a few items I did like ( the shaker cup and the mixing bowl/pitcher) but I hated the storage containers and drink pitchers - I always thought the drink pitchers made the lemonade taste like the Kool Aid that had been in it before.

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**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\
**Post date:** [September 25, 2024, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tupperware-inc-files-for-bankruptcy-70s-and-80s-kids-sob/1007457/51 "2024-09-25T14:18:38Z")

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> [@puzzlegal](#):
>
> grew up with Tupperware and disliked it?

Heh, I don’t think we had a choice. My mom went to parties and always felt like she had to but something. Tupperware parties and Mahjong were her only “fun” things.

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**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\
**Post date:** [September 25, 2024, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tupperware-inc-files-for-bankruptcy-70s-and-80s-kids-sob/1007457/52 "2024-09-25T14:26:04Z")

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Taupe

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**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\
**Post date:** [September 25, 2024, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tupperware-inc-files-for-bankruptcy-70s-and-80s-kids-sob/1007457/53 "2024-09-25T14:59:59Z")

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How did you get hold of my dad’s orange juice pitcher?

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**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\
**Post date:** [September 25, 2024, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tupperware-inc-files-for-bankruptcy-70s-and-80s-kids-sob/1007457/54 "2024-09-25T15:24:00Z")

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For popcorn, Tupperware was a no-go; at least not in the humid Midwest. For that we relied on the old tin [Krispy Kan](https://www.2000toys.jp/phone/product/9412) with the glass knob filled with desiccant that could be unscrewed and dried in the oven

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**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\
**Post date:** [September 25, 2024, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tupperware-inc-files-for-bankruptcy-70s-and-80s-kids-sob/1007457/55 "2024-09-25T15:28:10Z")

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> [@Jophiel](#):
>
> I don’t doubt that they make/made a quality product but I also assume most people’s quality ceiling on storage containers is pretty low.

That’s one thing I recall from my younger years: the _quality_ of Tupperware. The plastic was thick, there were no sharp edges, and the lids seemed to make a really good seal. The stuff I find at Walmart just feels… cheap & flimsy by comparison.

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**Author:** ![Ponch8](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponch8/32/9883_2.png) [@Ponch8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponch8)\
**Post date:** [September 25, 2024, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tupperware-inc-files-for-bankruptcy-70s-and-80s-kids-sob/1007457/56 "2024-09-25T15:41:30Z")

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The Malombo tribe loves them. They keep hot dog buns fresh for days.

> **[Airplane!: The Malombo tribe.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=uSQ_lWEtMb4%2F)**

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**Author:** ![WildaBeast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wildabeast/32/6_2.png) [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)\
**Post date:** [September 25, 2024, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tupperware-inc-files-for-bankruptcy-70s-and-80s-kids-sob/1007457/57 "2024-09-25T16:11:27Z")

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> [@Crafter\_Man](#):
>
> That’s one thing I recall from my younger years: the _quality_ of Tupperware. The plastic was thick, there were no sharp edges, and the lids seemed to make a really good seal. The stuff I find at Walmart just feels… cheap & flimsy by comparison.

Ironically, according to some NPR show I heard a while back, that might be partially what hurt them. Because that quality also comes with a higher price than the stuff at WalMart. And apparently younger people have a perception that plastic = a cheap, basically semi-disposable product. So they see the price of Tupperware, and think “Why would I pay that much for a container made of _plastic_?”

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**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\
**Post date:** [September 25, 2024, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tupperware-inc-files-for-bankruptcy-70s-and-80s-kids-sob/1007457/58 "2024-09-25T16:23:15Z")

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> [@Dewey\_Finn](#):
>
> The other thing is they used to have weird, highly specialized products. I think we had the kit that could make frozen ice pops out of juice or Kool-Aid.

I loved making orange juice pops

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**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\
**Post date:** [September 25, 2024, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tupperware-inc-files-for-bankruptcy-70s-and-80s-kids-sob/1007457/59 "2024-09-25T16:38:55Z")

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> [@WildaBeast](#):
>
> Ironically, according to some NPR show I heard a while back, that might be partially what hurt them. Because that quality also comes with a higher price than the stuff at WalMart.

I don’t use sealable containers but if I did, the evanescent nature of them would put me off but not because It think of them as disposable. They physically last a very long time, but not only would the aforementioned lids get lost well before the tupperware would bite the dust, they could also be lost in general, or dinged or stained.

It’s sort of like buying an IBM PC in the 80s. They lasted longer than cheaper-priced clones, but by the time they die, they’ll have been obsolescent for years. Similarly, Tupperware would be less usable well before it actually cracks.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Lancia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lancia/32/17174_2.png) [@Lancia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lancia)\
**Post date:** [September 25, 2024, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tupperware-inc-files-for-bankruptcy-70s-and-80s-kids-sob/1007457/60 "2024-09-25T17:20:25Z")

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For leftover food storage, Tupperware doesn’t do much for me. I prefer glass. I do have a big, maybe 12”x8”x12” container that I used to use to store whole bean coffee in when I had a voracious coffee appetite, then when I stopped making coffee at home it got repurposed for powdered laundry soap, now that I use liquid soap it sits in my garage doing bupkis. I think I’m eventually going to use it store extra home electrical stuff like switches and wall plugs and cover plates and the like. I also have an ancient Tupperware pitcher that my mom used to water her houseplants. It sits under the kitchen sink collecting dust; I keep it for no other reason than it was my mom’s.

I do like, and use, the specialty containers they make (or made, rather). [These little shot glass things are quite handy.](https://www.ebay.com/itm/266841563928?_skw=tiny+tupperware&itmmeta=01J8N13EN13JDSNT1HQ6N94E6J&hash=item3e20ff2318:g:eoEAAOSwaIhlq-g3&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA0Mxmj%2BiGvOveHXEBClPb29huqdKUhf0NRfCTYjU4nsj%2FyTAXMUnq3RtZ9Q%2F7ekItlnQOZh87mbEZ6jG%2FWaEOHGp%2FgSErKUjQ4B5A%2Fqo6nhYud5xUJ%2F2A2z0dc32lDKZ7R8NJg1%2BVNlKfXzP6ka5tPHxkDeIF%2F3v26W7aZgW2W5Pi2DEOID7%2B6E%2BEQze6jdZ4DYzuzmvqsm%2B3wvNpgnzlNP3pauxQVbrt6mFEjqqJRakFmZG3Bv%2Bpt1GXmUpxhm3WdB0HJDoCUwS7vfDGIFFDDPc%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR8zqjaHFZA) [These quarter-shot glass sized things](https://www.ebay.com/itm/165417823615?_skw=tupperware+smidge&itmmeta=01J8N16XJR22AA987P706FSEAZ&hash=item2683abad7f:g:GsEAAOSwa3FcFpwb&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKms2XzF3tG90ck628CTl52wd%2F%2BiChMe3J9F7w5U1j5IjNr53DPhnAcgjN8gyZtvVYLq5iw0dq0CpBPe1TLIJjLU%2B7fznYuqSEYAKB1zxWdTWewtj4354Yoy9pWnQalVTbpFW6s0vmJkz9jniBVTGa8ERUjYdS3x8jqNf%2Fpp6ZOmJnIlkj31%2B3aQxpoh3pWScqVdZk8iNq47Uo1w1oGrqXUzKIjpyH2gouvbfatfU0rTqzXKbANZXcaytnj2fQgYE%2FBIY9PNfCGVup5WddBqD%2FKzYUh1400OsbaDi0AmTR4mJQ%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR8TZm6HFZA) are even handier: handy for taking a day’s worth of meds on you when you’re out and about for the day, handy for taking some spices with you when you go camping, handy for storing tiny screws, nuts, or washers, and handy for pretty much whatever you need a small container for. [They even have shaker lids](https://www.ebay.com/itm/156412633794?_skw=tupperware+smidge+shaker+lids&itmmeta=01J8N1CZX0PHB7SHFZ77SBFA64&hash=item246aeb62c2:g:M7EAAOSw6lFm6OOX&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA4HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKnuOZOLgbtel3r0hYBA7%2BRZ5%2FtFZWrmz5%2Fkntstbvzfcq%2FsmW%2FdPKZOnN8sHjDe1wfWeKJjmy4%2Br6ve9w2WN4zrxayZKIGLTce7tS8myWLvO1lGuOPnaV4ZzJeC1QN6YSCc10cZOyL1Jc1cLdPOT1qjqivfiBYzQ9813FMdFiaPRiqi8IwVmLH9VWZY4%2Fzj6AH%2BMyGiCXyQZ%2BHQOPvNA9F25AjElXybOUK%2BKFHHfMzsGElTeoBiNZ7C1y32kKFrEr2BdTS%2BH9wP0AX%2BPOBWC0Si%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR8z-s6HFZA) for both of the above (they’re the same lids) to turn them into salt/pepper/whatever shakers. Speaking of which, for your basic salt and pepper shakers, [these are hard to beat.](https://www.ebay.com/itm/266990516181?_skw=tupperware+salt+and+pepper&itmmeta=01J8N1EHDQ7AVNVMSEKMED06HN&hash=item3e29dff7d5:g:p28AAOSwi91m5duS&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKnRMhqO0bJSRRjJMLE7T428w5wAw1M8DSGyrYcaCYEseJC1ISTkD6bNrYVOB83NP33i6Z7sIfDi%2BK5BVo%2Fb9Qpq9fwfbB58%2B0ac6cpGbf6xkXQAVbeIpKxQdxH8gFo2CGfgIU83tfqICdzYC831aGgt9C3NFe0%2Ftvvq4qPVejKPYzQRo33c5f0fh9CPyIF7h2rcs%2FvTJJ1qZAJi1WsysRU35FjCX5e%2B8KzdyAxwKFiH5jfXP%2BzYE41AlHRh%2FNrnSeVcZ2T9F%2B3SB5MI0yfiU76SrnQ09afcfh%2FQwJ6z0I4vYw%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBM-Ja6ocVk) Being able to close the lid is nice as they keep the salt from clumping; they’re the only ones I’ve found that actually succeed in doing that. For a salt and pepper shaker to store in your lunchbox, [this Dr. Seuss-designed thing](https://www.ebay.com/itm/145886429437?_skw=tupperwar+salt+and+pepper+shaker+mini&itmmeta=01J8N1G0Q62MJMR38C48N4S2C5&hash=item21f78240fd:g:pskAAOSw6CtktAcu&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA4HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKl858JOaOQpA2WbsYs6%2B6EyMAjnKostVI%2Bhic0xvXIxjcOYH6p8t9T81pI6eQ0OlYF%2FatwnKmLF6Hb6t1g4R6WmmJatLcwaLq2NC1y2ctGediDo7V2QL2tsXtFVQ8sB3jFc2OcuW644DyVgw8c0zoT3Eqrm%2FJ0GpLyfxeE4os49S1iNLwoex6b2QLBiy6PShtv0W2cqYIlG68G3qHm0To%2BoknPtSz27QmIt5V%2Fy77WVGJxpZFofa9fEfd9R0xgFY4NVDuARYtlmuGsKa25wCSs7%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR9aLwKHFZA) is actually really handy although you may have to drill out the holes a bit as they are _really_ tiny straight from the factory. Take an extra one or two to keep some Mrs. Dash or Slap Yo Mama seasoning with you. Speaking of lunch, [this lunch box is great](https://www.etsy.com/listing/1191722035/vintage-tupperware-pack-n-carry-vintage?gpla=1&gao=1&&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping_us_ps-d-home_and_living-kitchen_and_dining-kitchen_storage-jars_and_containers-other&utm_custom1=_k_CjwKCAjw6c63BhAiEiwAF0EH1L69hNpqtqNSuNpM2zRThyUaKlRfRwaNoTzPZ4nhSlEa7knB89YwYRoCffAQAvD_BwE_k_&utm_content=go_21500568366_166646285193_707450248299_pla-305107673187_c__1191722035_12768591&utm_custom2=21500568366&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw6c63BhAiEiwAF0EH1L69hNpqtqNSuNpM2zRThyUaKlRfRwaNoTzPZ4nhSlEa7knB89YwYRoCffAQAvD_BwE) and I still use mine regularly, although it’s a bit on the small side. You won’t fit a leftover pizza in it but it’s perfect for a sandwich and couple of baggies of snacky stuff. [These containers](https://www.amazon.com/Tupperware-Modular-Mates-Oval-Set/dp/B00ANCEY2U/ref=asc_df_B00ANCEY2U/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=692875362841&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3562616719355440214&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033084&hvtargid=pla-2281435178058&psc=1&mcid=5414029c637330a188bdd79c26116c0e&hvocijid=3562616719355440214-B00ANCEY2U-&hvexpln=73) are great for storing dried pasta, cereal, beans and the like.

[This pitcher](https://www.ebay.com/itm/226368861374?_skw=tupperware+pitcher&itmmeta=01J8N2JEQRP1GBHYDBJG0MDGNC&hash=item34b4a2b4be:g:84kAAOSwvBxm8uNH&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA0HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKljkKt9zYEDFHknnUBgzp6tzgnUG4GOfJ16ywF%2FvVo90IRbAPxjWxx3BldVdhVvR88W%2FvMaC56sGg0vZ7F1%2B3f6Ok33mrvMldN2L0Rg%2BdRY20ahj0oT249ughO5zpKsFJsmxD5%2BwNdBskoeHOyJxg40njWlcA1lrrfWmOz7vP7o%2BG2dOM1P4pOOesqnuzKkgM%2FoKqvKHGhOm972%2BMsVphzRKc1GUdrgPB3u8YHk0pjMmyYy9DVjkoJ36x01ldFFMc4%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR_7ryaLFZA) is ideal for families with kids as the lit fits on tight and is exponentially less likely to pop off when an overzealous or uncoordinated kid is pouring out their Kool-Aid. It also fits better in a crowded fridge than the usual round design.

For leftover food storage, Tupperware containers are no better than Rubbermaid. Well, I suppose they are better made and longer lasting so… ok, yeah they’re better. But not better enough to pay a premium price for them. And neither are as good as glass containers with snap-on lids. But the rest of the specialty stuff Tupperware makes, or did 40 years ago, is pretty hard to beat.

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