# Turkey downs Russian jet **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 24, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432 "2015-11-24T15:52:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/21 "2015-11-24T17:37:53Z")
And to be clear what I meant is that they didn’t sink any. There is also the question of whether those were all Soviet subs. Some were probably NATO. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/22 "2015-11-24T17:39:37Z")
No, they didn’t, but that’s something that can obviously happen when you’re firing depth charges, and the Swedes were prepared to deal with the consequences. It was their territorial waters after all. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/23 "2015-11-24T17:43:50Z")
Thanks **Ravenman**! I was under the impression that the Swedes allowed the sub at Hårsfjärden to escape, in order to avoid a big ol’ brawl with the Soviets. Apparently not. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/24 "2015-11-24T17:45:58Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Some were probably NATO. I don’t think that’s plausible at all. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/25 "2015-11-24T18:25:28Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Turkey has repeatedly warned the Russians about this. In addition, pretty much everyone has told the Russians they need to coordinate their air strikes. Russia, of course, has ignored them (and has deliberately violated multiple countries air space to make their point). Do you have a cite saying Russia is deliberately violating airspace to make a point? Judging by the map in the BBC article it seems like a mistake and an easy mistake to make. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/26 "2015-11-24T18:28:07Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > [Here’s another thread on the same subject.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=776076) Maybe they could be merged, there’s really no difference between them. ---
**Author:** ![fire\_hazard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/6de8d8/32.png) [@fire\_hazard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fire_hazard)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/27 "2015-11-24T18:59:55Z")
It seems the FSA now claim to have shot down one of the rescue helicopters using a TOW. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/28 "2015-11-24T19:01:00Z")
> [@fire\_hazard](#): > > It seems the FSA now claim to have shot down one of the rescue helicopters using a TOW. Now where did they get a TOW, I wonder… ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/29 "2015-11-24T19:12:38Z")
There are plenty of them on the black market. Nowadays the US gives its proxy fighters Stingers instead. Much more range and much more accurate. Good for Turkey, assuming the aircraft did enter their airspace. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/30 "2015-11-24T19:15:16Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You know, it occurs to me once again that so many people wanted to kiss Putin’s ass after he sent his military to Syria. The amount of Putin bots on the internet is pretty weird. I can’t tell how many of them are Russians vs. Western conservatives trolling Obama. They act like Russia has a history of dominating ME countries and Turkey just made a huge mistake because Putin means business! No half measures! No mercy! Roar! Maybe the Kurds will get some Russian toys out of this. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/31 "2015-11-24T19:16:36Z")
I trust Turkey on this one. Russia has a consistent reputation for deception. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/32 "2015-11-24T19:18:30Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Hopefully but a NATO member shooting down a Russian jet looks pretty fucking bad. And this isn’t really “shit happens” like a friendly fire incident. \*\*The best we could assume \*\*is that they thought they were shooting down a Syrian jet but it’s quite likely they knew it was Russian. What’s so hard about believing it was a Russian jet in Turkish airspace? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/33 "2015-11-24T19:34:54Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > What’s so hard about believing it was a Russian jet in Turkish airspace? Nothing. I meant vis a vis smoothing Russian-NATO relations, the best we could think is that Turkey thought they were shooting down a Syrian jet rather than a Russian one. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/34 "2015-11-24T20:01:13Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Do you have a cite saying Russia is deliberately violating airspace to make a point? Judging by the map in the BBC article it seems like a mistake and an easy mistake to make. I wasn’t necessarily talking about this incident. It’s possibly that this time it was an accident (and possible that the Russians simply don’t care enough to worry about it…or didn’t until this happened). Doesn’t negate the fact that Russia has a [history of violating other countries air space](http://globalnews.ca/news/2358786/russia-has-a-long-history-of-violating-nato-airspace/), that they have been specifically warned in the case of Turkey not to do this and have been asked to coordinate their air strikes and haven’t bothered to do so. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/35 "2015-11-24T20:01:34Z")
This seems like a big deal. Is it? The news says this is the first Russian plane downed by a NATO country since the 1950’s. I see that the price of oil is up, gold is up, U.S. bonds are up(!) and (due to oil) the stock market is up slightly! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/36 "2015-11-24T20:10:01Z")
I’m hearing the Russian pilots are dead now after ejecting safely? I hope they weren’t killed by Turkish soldiers, that’s too much of a provocation and probably a war crime. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/37 "2015-11-24T20:14:09Z")
According to [CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/24/middleeast/warplane-crashes-near-syria-turkey-border/index.html): > [@](#): > > Istanbul (CNN)One of the world’s most volatile regions was roiled further Tuesday when Turkey shot down a Russian warplane near the Turkish-Syrian border. Turkey said it hit the plane after it repeatedly violated Turkey’s airspace and ignored 10 warnings. > [@](#): > > The Russian plane was warned numerous times beforehand and was subsequently dealt with because it “did not answer our warning,” Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Tuesday. Probably the worst part of this, from Russia’s perspective, is this: > [@](#): > > One of the two pilots was killed in the air by fire from the ground, according to Russia’s state-run news agency RIA Novosti. The fate of the second pilot wasn’t disclosed. > > Meanwhile, a Russian marine was killed on Tuesday during an operation to rescue the two pilots, who were flying an Su-24 warplane, according to RIA Novosti. Shooting the pilot(s) right out of the air kind of indicates how much fury there is over the Russians being in Syria. Though, I imagine, if a US, French, UK or other coalition fighter was shot down over ISIS territory they might similarly be shot from the air by angry fighters on the ground. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/38 "2015-11-24T20:19:08Z")
It’s not like Assad’s side has been taking prisoners. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/39 "2015-11-24T20:22:21Z")
The early reports I read was that the rebels claimed they were shooting the parachutes so that they could keep gliding into government held territory. Not easy to believe but I can imagine that capturing them alive would have been preferable to rebel leaders- either to kill on video or to use as a bargaining chip. ---
**Author:** ![Bonaventure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c57346/32.png) [@Bonaventure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bonaventure)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/40 "2015-11-24T20:22:30Z")
It seems likely that the Russian pilots were killed by anti-Assad forces on the ground in Syria. In other words, the very people they were trying to drop bombs on. If you look at the map, while the plane was shot down over a spit of Turkish land, the plane itself crashed in Syria. It also seems likely that the Turks shot the plane down not only for violating their airspace but more likely because it was bombing anti-Assad rebels aligned with Turkey. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432.md?page=3)