# Turkey downs Russian jet **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 24, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432 "2015-11-24T15:52:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/101 "2015-11-25T01:42:30Z")
Eh, everyone got what they needed here (except for the poor pilots, of course.) Russia got to show that hey don’t give a f-ck. Turkey got to show that they don’t really care if Russia gives a f-ck or not. Now everyone will make heavy handed statements until the next news cycle, after which everyone can settle back into the same pattern confident that they’ve shown each other where they stand and have gone through the motions appropriately. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/102 "2015-11-25T01:44:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Will Britain then be sending a light brigade? Oh, Crimea River! ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/103 "2015-11-25T01:50:04Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Eh, everyone got what they needed here (except for the poor pilots, of course.) Russia got to show that hey don’t give a f-ck. Turkey got to show that they don’t really care if Russia gives a f-ck or not. Now everyone will make heavy handed statements until the next news cycle, after which everyone can settle back into the same pattern confident that they’ve shown each other where they stand and have gone through the motions appropriately. What the heck is with the attitude that this is some meaningless blip? You realize that there are still people Russia wants to bomb at the Turkish-Syria border? Turkey still wants these people to depose Russia’s buddy? Putin is going to lose some serious shine off his bare-chested chessmaster image? I’m not saying armeggedon is nigh but being blasé about this is pretty weird. It’s not like there’s some proven track record that NATO shooting down Russian planes has been fine in the past. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/104 "2015-11-25T01:55:50Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Now everyone will make heavy handed statements until the next news cycle, after which everyone can settle back into the same pattern confident that they’ve shown each other where they stand and have gone through the motions appropriately. On the contrary, I suspect that Russia will double down on attacking Syrian Turkmen villages near the Syria / Turkish border, and also potentially move some SAM batteries near by and make sure they have Su-35’s in the area when doing bombing runs. Its a very dangerous game of chicken, but I don’t think Putin is going to back down because of the loss of one plane. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/105 "2015-11-25T02:18:41Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > What the heck is with the attitude that this is some meaningless blip? You realize that there are still people Russia wants to bomb at the Turkish-Syria border? Turkey still wants these people to depose Russia’s buddy? Putin is going to lose some serious shine off his bare-chested chessmaster image? I’m not saying armeggedon is nigh but being blasé about this is pretty weird. It’s not like there’s some proven track record that NATO shooting down Russian planes has been fine in the past. Getting shot down is a predicable result of flying warplanes over some else’s air space. Poeple do it all the time anyway, and now and then someone gets shot down and everyone has to play “international incident” for a while. The larger conflict is still a huge problem, of course. And now that these two parties have made a show of pushing their boundaries (and defending them), they can get back to concentrating on the proxy warfare. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/106 "2015-11-25T02:22:28Z")
An incident like this was bound to happen. I expect there will be another. Not necessarily an aircraft downing, but some Russian element firing on some Turkish element, or vice-versa. It’s a smallish war, they’re on different sides, people are going to get shot. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/107 "2015-11-25T02:26:34Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > meh. Do you think not shooting down a plane straying into your territory for a whole 10 seconds is bending over? Are you of the opinion that all aircrafts straying into foreign territory should be shot down? Turkish helicopters over Armenia for instance ([Armenian Airspace ‘Violated By Turkish Helicopters’](http://www.azatutyun.mobi/a/27299112.html)). Would you have supported Russia (which have a large military base in Armenia) shooting down those, or doing it next time? At least the Turks didnt shoot down a civilian airplane. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/108 "2015-11-25T02:30:25Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > they can get back to concentrating on the proxy warfare. Oh, yes. That dreary thing. Ho hum. Isn’t there an Olympics soon to take that off the news cycle too? ---
**Author:** ![fire\_hazard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/6de8d8/32.png) [@fire\_hazard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fire_hazard)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/109 "2015-11-25T02:43:14Z")
The Turks have been playing the Empire Game for a lot longer than the Russians. I wouldn’t be buying concert tickets for Moscow or St.Petersburg anytime soon. Proxy warfare is sadly a messy enterprise. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/110 "2015-11-25T03:02:40Z")
> [@fire\_hazard](#): > > The Turks have been playing the Empire Game for a lot longer than the Russians. Not really. Keivan Rus was at its height in the 11th century with a pretty decent Empire. The Ottomans didn’t get started until 1299. (Counting the Ottomans as a continuation of the Byzantine empire is cheating in my opinion…) ---
**Author:** ![Nema98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d2c977/32.png) [@Nema98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nema98)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/111 "2015-11-25T04:13:23Z")
I would be very surprised if war were to break out over this. From now Russia will be extra careful in going close to Turkish border. Russia is playing a dangerous game, getting involved in a war, backing and propping one side and getting close to another nation that backs the opposite of the war. Russia does not belong there in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Nema98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d2c977/32.png) [@Nema98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nema98)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/112 "2015-11-25T04:14:37Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Oh, yes. That dreary thing. Ho hum. Isn’t there an Olympics soon to take that off the news cycle too? Not until the Summer. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/113 "2015-11-25T04:18:39Z")
> [@Nema98](#): > > Russia does not belong there in the first place. Russian forces were invited into Syria by Assad who for the moment is still the UN recognised government of Syria. > **[Syrian government invites Russia to send in ground troops to protect Assad...](https://www.nydailynews.com/2015/10/02/syrian-government-invites-russia-to-send-in-ground-troops-to-protect-assad-regime-from-isis/)** > > The Syrian government formally invited the Russians on Friday to send in troops to save their tottering dictator from the murderous Islamic State militants. Foreign Minister Walid al-Moallem said d… Out of all the foreign powers striking Syria for their own purposes, according to International Law Russia has the most justification to be there. ---
**Author:** ![Nema98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d2c977/32.png) [@Nema98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nema98)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/114 "2015-11-25T04:21:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, Crimea River! Speaking of Crimea there is this. Tatars and Ukrainian nationalists have blocked power but not allowing engineers to fix pylons that take gas and electricity to Crimea. They do allow the ones serving Ukraine to be fixed. As a result of the annexed peninsula is in the dark. Ukraine is also not allowing cargo and supply trucks from going to Crimea. Russia has warned of cutting gas to Ukraine as a result. First it’s the Tatars, now the Turkomans. The Russian genius is can’t catch a break. I wonder how it’s working out for Crimean people, you know that whole become part of Russia situation? > **[Crimea hit by power blackout and Ukraine trade boycott](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34899491)** > > Ukraine suspends deliveries of goods to Crimea, as a power blackout has caused major disruption on the peninsula annexed by Russia in 2014. > **[Explainer: Why Ukraine Supplies Electricity To Crimea, And Why It Stopped](https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-crimea-power-supply-electricity-explainer/27384812.html)** > > Who stands behind the destruction of electricity pylons in southern Ukraine that left almost 2 million residents of Crimea in the dark? And why isn't Russia supplying power to its annexed territory in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Nema98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d2c977/32.png) [@Nema98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nema98)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/115 "2015-11-25T04:23:10Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Russian forces were invited into Syria by Assad who for the moment is still the UN recognised government of Syria. > [Syrian government invites Russia to send in ground troops to protect Assad regime from ISIS – New York Daily News](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/russia-launches-attacks-syria-day-article-1.2382933) > > Out of all the foreign powers striking Syria for their own purposes, according to International Law Russia has the most justification to be there. True but it is a recognized government that is responsible for causing this whole fiasco and bombing it’s own citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Nema98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d2c977/32.png) [@Nema98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nema98)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/116 "2015-11-25T04:25:47Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > It’s not even a given at this time that the Russia planes did in fact fly over Turkish territory (Turkey claims 5 miles into Syrian territory), and if they did they were shot down while leaving it. And the parachuted airmen killed by supposedly pro-Western rebels, since the whole critique of Russia rests on there not being any ISIS or Al Qaeda in the area. > > Turkey has frequently violated the airspace of pretty much all its neighbors. Greece, Cyprus, Armenia, Iran and of course Syria. The world will be a much more dangerous place if we start to shoot down such miniscule transgressions. That was not how it was done even during the Cold War. And I expect Turkey will not like it one bit if their helicopters flying into Armenian or Greek airspace will get downed next time. > > Turkey fucked up big time. The USA knows this, and probably the West will have to give some concessions to Russia on account of this Turkish fuck up. Russia phucked up by going into Syria. Turkey has a track record of downing unwelcome jets in it’s air space and has warned Russia before. There is no ISIS in that part of Syria, why was Russia there? Now those rebels being bombed by Russia had the chance to kill those same Russians, can’t blame them. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/117 "2015-11-25T04:31:10Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > On the contrary, I suspect that Russia will double down on attacking Syrian Turkmen villages near the Syria / Turkish border, and also potentially move some SAM batteries near by and make sure they have Su-35’s in the area when doing bombing runs. > > Its a very dangerous game of chicken, but I don’t think Putin is going to back down because of the loss of one plane. How would Russia move SAMs to the area? I wasn’t aware they had any ground forces in the area to operate a SAM. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/118 "2015-11-25T04:45:11Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > How would Russia move SAMs to the area? I wasn’t aware they had any ground forces in the area to operate a SAM. They don’t. In addition, the region near the border isn’t exactly friendly to Syrian regular forces or Russians, so there isn’t really any way they would be able to do this short of massive victories. But reality is beside the point in these discussions where emotion rules. The Big Russia Bear is pissed, so anything is possible I suppose. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/119 "2015-11-25T04:51:58Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > How would Russia move SAMs to the area? I wasn’t aware they had any ground forces in the area to operate a SAM. This article from September says they were on the way and initial installation had occured > [@](#): > > Moscow is sending an advanced anti-aircraft missile system to Syria, two Western officials and a Russian source said, as part of what the West believes is stepped-up military support for embattled President Bashar al-Assad. > > The Western officials said the SA-22 system would be operated by Russian troops, rather than Syrians. The system was on its way to Syria but had not yet arrived. > > “This system is the advanced version used by Russia and it’s meant to be operated by Russians in Syria,” said one of the sources, a Western diplomat who is regularly briefed on U.S., Israeli and other intelligence assessments. [http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/11/us-mideast-crisis-syria-arms-idUSKCN0RB1Q020150911](http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/11/us-mideast-crisis-syria-arms-idUSKCN0RB1Q020150911) I can’t find specifics on how effective it is, but it looks to be the real deal. Almost certainly a threat to Turkish F-16s and it has a range of 400 miles. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/120 "2015-11-25T05:24:18Z")
> [@treis](#): > > This article from September says they were on the way and initial installation had occured > > [http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/11/us-mideast-crisis-syria-arms-idUSKCN0RB1Q020150911](http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/11/us-mideast-crisis-syria-arms-idUSKCN0RB1Q020150911) > > I can’t find specifics on how effective it is, but it looks to be the real deal. Almost certainly a threat to Turkish F-16s and it has a range of 400 miles. And should they launch and hit a Turkish plane over Turkish airspace, or worse, accidently down a US plane, one has to ask how does that improve Putin’s chances for success in Syria? I think Putin is sending in the ship to intimidate the Turks, but presume he’d be mightly reluctant to fire one for the simple fact that a miscalculation (re: above) could cause things to spin out of control. Guns of August and all that… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432.md?page=7)