# Turkey downs Russian jet **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 24, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432 "2015-11-24T15:52:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/121 "2015-11-25T06:23:28Z")
> [@user\_hostile](#): > > And should they launch and hit a Turkish plane over Turkish airspace, or worse, accidently down a US plane, one has to ask how does that improve Putin’s chances for success in Syria? If the Turkish planes are in Turkish airspace but firing missiles at Russian planes inside Syria they can expect to get targeted. Even according to the radar track the Turkish army released the SU-24 was in Turkish air space for less than 20 seconds, the missile hit the SU-24 inside Syrian airspace and the plane crashed in Syria, not in Turkey. “Russia deploys missile cruiser off Syria coast, ordered to destroy any target posing danger” [https://www.rt.com/news/323329-russia-suspend-military-turkey/](https://www.rt.com/news/323329-russia-suspend-military-turkey/) ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/122 "2015-11-25T09:57:31Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Not really. Keivan Rus was at its height in the 11th century with a pretty decent Empire. The Ottomans didn’t get started until 1299. (Counting the Ottomans as a continuation of the Byzantine empire is cheating in my opinion…) But counting the Turks as a continuation of the Hun and Mongol empires is quite realistic. The Huns (100bc-500ad) spoke a language related to both Mongolian and later Ottoman Turkish. All of those people came from the general area of Western China & Central Asia and swept west toward Europe. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/123 "2015-11-25T10:34:38Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Getting shot down is a predicable result of flying warplanes over some else’s air space. Poeple do it all the time anyway, and now and then someone gets shot down and everyone has to play “international incident” for a while. Oh? Such as? This is not a few potshot between a couple of angry tribes. This is a military engagement between two of the world’s most powerful military blocs. Who have thosands of nukes tageted at each other. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/124 "2015-11-25T11:09:51Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > The Huns (100bc-500ad) spoke a language related to both Mongolian and later Ottoman Turkish. Cite? Just out of interest ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/125 "2015-11-25T11:47:42Z")
“US blames Turkey for over-reaction to minor violation of airspace” > **[Report: US officials blame Turkey for overreacting to minor violation of...](https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Report-US-officials-blame-Turkey-for-overreacting-to-minor-violation-of-airspace-435293)** > > CBS News reports that US officials think downing of Russian plane that made brief incursion into Syrian airspace was unnecessary. A not so subtle signal that Turkey is on its own on this one. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/126 "2015-11-25T12:27:15Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Cite? > Just out of interest Of course, I don’t speak Hunnic or Mongolian or Ottoman Turk, so I can only pass along what I’ve read following a recent trip down the Attila-related pages of wikihole. I’m not qualified to defend this, personally. So from the sources listed on this page: > **[Hunnic language](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunnic_language)** > > The Hunnic language, or Hunnish, was the language spoken by Huns in the Hunnic Empire, a heterogeneous, multi-ethnic tribal confederation which invaded Eastern and Central Europe, and ruled most of Pannonian Eastern Europe, during the 4th and 5th centuries CE. A variety of languages were spoken within the Hun Empire. A contemporary report by Priscus has that Hunnish was spoken alongside Gothic and the languages of other tribes subjugated by the Huns. > As no inscriptions or whole sentences in the ... Pritsak, Omeljan (1982). The Hunnic Language of the Attila Clan (PDF) IV (4). Cambridge, Massachusetts: Harvard Ukrainian Research Institute. ISSN 0363-5570. [http://projects.iq.harvard.edu/files/huri/files/vvi\_n4\_dec1982.pdf](http://projects.iq.harvard.edu/files/huri/files/vvi_n4_dec1982.pdf) There isn’t a lot of written Hunnic still extant. The vast majority of it is personal names, which is more useful than it sounds because apparently the Huns used common nouns as personal names. You know - names like Goodluck Jonathon and Pearl Bailey. They sound a little silly in English, where we tend not to think about name meanings, but those sorts of names are common in other cultures. Anyway, Pritsak, who was the Harvard profeesor of Ukranian Studies at the time, runs though the names and connects them and their grammatical changes to other linguistic information of the era. He also talks a little about the people who bore the names. It includes info from a wide range of contemporary writings about the Huns, including Muslim and Roman sources. Pritsak concludes that the Hunnic language had strong ties to both Mongolian and Turkish langugage features, and grammatically, it seems to be closer to later Turkish languages such as the Ottoman. It’s an interesting article, I thought, about a subject that was new to me. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/127 "2015-11-25T12:47:55Z")
Irregardless of the language similarities, the origin of the Golden Horde is the steppes of Mongolia, not Turkey so its a bit of a stretch to say the Ottoman Empire is a continuation of them. ---
**Author:** ![fire\_hazard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/6de8d8/32.png) [@fire\_hazard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fire_hazard)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/128 "2015-11-25T12:56:03Z")
(Counting the Ottomans as a continuation of the Byzantine empire is cheating in my opinion…) [/QUOTE] I had no intention to cheat. It seems a complicated history can be read in several ways… ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/129 "2015-11-25T13:47:11Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > But counting the Turks as a continuation of the Hun and Mongol empires is quite realistic. The Huns (100bc-500ad) spoke a language related to both Mongolian and later Ottoman Turkish. All of those people came from the general area of Western China & Central Asia and swept west toward Europe. Even if the languages are related, it still doesn’t make sense to say that Ottoman empire is a continuation of the Mongol (let alone Hunnic) empire. English and Russian are related, but the British had no involvement in the conquest of Siberia. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/130 "2015-11-25T13:52:51Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Even if the languages are related, it still doesn’t make sense to say that Ottoman empire is a continuation of the Mongol (let alone Hunnic) empire. English and Russian are related, but the British had no involvement in the conquest of Siberia. And conversely, Russia is in no way a continuation of the Kievan Rus, which is the claim that started this hijack (if anyone is, it’s the country whose current capital is actually Kiev, right?) ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/131 "2015-11-25T13:57:36Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > And conversely, Russia is in no way a continuation of the Kievan Rus, which is the claim that started this hijack (if anyone is, it’s the country whose current capital is actually Kiev, right?) Thats dubious, moving the capital is a lot different to changing languages / culture. Kievan Rus is pretty widely acknowledged as the precursor of modern Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/132 "2015-11-25T14:09:13Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > …which is the claim that started this hijack Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/133 "2015-11-25T14:17:02Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > How would Russia move SAMs to the area? I wasn’t aware they had any ground forces in the area to operate a SAM. They don’t have to be in the immediate vicinity. A S-300 battery in for instance Latakia, where they do have ground forces, could cover the whole area. And much of Turkey. Greek airspace too. I’m sure Turkey will be ok with having shot down some of their planes which entered Greek airspace no less than 2244 times in 2014 alone ([Turkey buzzes weakened Greece](http://www.politico.eu/article/turkey-buzzes-weakened-greece-military-airspace/)) In fact they decided to transfer a S-400 system in Hmeymim ([S-400 Will be Deployed at Syrian Airbase Hmeymim - Russian Defense Minister](http://sputniknews.com/military/20151125/1030713024/russian-defense-missiles-syria-deployment.html)) > [@Nema98](#): > > Now those rebels being bombed by Russia had the chance to kill those same Russians, can’t blame them. Those “rebels” are actually Turks from the neo-fascist organisation Grey Wolves. The commander which claimed to have killed the two pilots (only one died) is one [Alparslan Çelik](http://www.radikal.com.tr/turkiye/mhpli-eski-baskanin-oglu-savasmak-icin-iraka-gitti-1201042/). ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/134 "2015-11-25T14:22:34Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Those “rebels” are actually Turks from the neo-fascist organisation Grey Wolves. The commander which claimed to have killed the two pilots (only one died) is one [Alparslan Çelik](http://www.radikal.com.tr/turkiye/mhpli-eski-baskanin-oglu-savasmak-icin-iraka-gitti-1201042/). So I guess everyone can agree that Russia wasn’t bombing ISIL in Latakia, then. I’m glad that the Russians managed to rescue one of the pilots. The death of the other one certainly appears to be cold blooded murder, and there’s no excuse for that. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/135 "2015-11-25T14:25:27Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > “US blames Turkey for over-reaction to minor violation of airspace” > [Report: US officials blame Turkey for overreacting to minor violation of airspace - The Jerusalem Post](http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Report-US-officials-blame-Turkey-for-overreacting-to-minor-violation-of-airspace-435293) > > A not so subtle signal that Turkey is on its own on this one. Turkey is not on it’s own. An anonymous government source saying that it was probably an overreaction does not dissolve NATO. Obviously this is just to smooth Russian feathers. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/136 "2015-11-25T14:31:50Z")
Plus, talk about burying the lede. [Kind of ignoring this little story, huh?](http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/24/politics/obama-francois-hollande-white-house-meeting/) The guy speaking is even on the record. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/137 "2015-11-25T14:36:11Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Thats dubious, moving the capital is a lot different to changing languages / culture. Kievan Rus is pretty widely acknowledged as the precursor of modern Russia. The whole premise is dubious. The Turks/Ottomans are not a continuation of Huns/Mongols/Jedis or the Byzantines whom they crushed in a long series of wars. The Russians have a slightly stronger claim. But both nations are really modern constructs. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/138 "2015-11-25T14:41:37Z")
According to this article [Kievan Rus | historical state, Europe | Britannica](http://www.britannica.com/topic/Kievan-Rus) KR was founded by a Viking. It was a Slavic state. Kinda like saying the USA is a continuation of Great Britain. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/139 "2015-11-25T14:43:38Z")
Maybe start another thread guys? Who has the longest running empire really means nothing to this story. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/140 "2015-11-25T15:23:06Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > I find it surprising the general consensus here is that we should Erdogan. > > He’s a lying, autocratic piece of trash. (Just like Putin). Why should we not think _he_ had ulterior motives in shooting down a Russian plane? Eh, he may be an autocrat but at least he’s not openly murdering his political rivals. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432.md?page=8)