# Turkey downs Russian jet **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 24, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432 "2015-11-24T15:52:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/161 "2015-11-25T22:07:45Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > The point I was trying to make was the point that I made: > > I.e. no “point” other than to set the record straight. :smack: Sorry, see you weren’t the one who originally brought this up. My bad. :o ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/162 "2015-11-25T22:23:22Z")
> [@XT](#): > > International law only matters if countries think it matters, because in the end it’s like pirate rules. So, if the UN thinks it can impose a now fly zone over the US then they certainly can try to do so. It’s not something that happens by fiat. On the other hand, if international law DID matter then we’d still be in Syria…in fact, the international community would have come together to invade the country since Assad et al violated said law when he used chemical weapons on his own civilians (let alone the violations for the use of things like barrel bombs). So, you can’t have it both ways here…either it matters in which case we should be doing more in Syria, or it doesn’t matter, in which case the US and France, not having been invited in by Assad to help in slaughtering his people should not be allowed (allowed by whom?) to do stuff. A stark assessment of the law of the jungle that rules the world. Of course, if America had been dealt with for all it’s other numerous violations then it maybe wouldn’t be in Syria helping to push it into civil war in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/163 "2015-11-25T22:25:35Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > A stark assessment of the law of the jungle that rules the world. Of course, if America had been dealt with for all it’s other numerous violations then it maybe wouldn’t be in Syria helping to push it into civil war in the first place. And Assad’s foot would firmly be on the necks of the Syria people as the gods intend, right? Yeah, totally America’s fault there that he’s not large and in charge as he should be. Good think Russia is out there to set things right! ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/164 "2015-11-25T22:34:03Z")
> [@XT](#): > > :smack: Sorry, see you weren’t the one who originally brought this up. My bad. :o No problem, buddy. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/165 "2015-11-25T22:34:48Z")
Once he’s gone they’ll put someone just as bad in charge. They always do. It’s not like the prospects of real improvement are stunningly good. Even if they could find a nice guy to govern, the population is traumatised, like a whole country with PTSD, thousand yard stares and outbreaks of irrational violence. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/166 "2015-11-25T22:51:17Z")
…which nobody but NGOs ever seem to consider. The PTSD of NATO troops gets increasing coverage, which is good - it should do, but there’s virtually nothing in our media about the countries where our forces are active, which has to be whole orders of magnitude greater - whether caused by us or their own rulers. If there is a danger of US troops going kill crazy one day from PTSD, imagine how many there are in the Arab world just living on a knife edge and without the same level of support or recognition that Westerners get - probably only prayers to try and keep them stable. Good luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/167 "2015-11-25T23:06:54Z")
…or maybe be like post war Europe and find it’s conscience ? Makes you wonder how bad things have to get before real change happens. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/168 "2015-11-25T23:09:17Z")
😕 So, your point is that the US, France and the rest should just leave it to Assad and Putin because the PTSD will be less if we just let them get on with the killing and get it over with and because whoever comes next will be bad too?? I totally don’t see what you are getting at here, to be honest. Turkey should let the Russians violate their air space because of this as well, or is this separate and just about the US, France and the other coalition members needing to pack it in and leave it to the Syrians and Russians??? ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/169 "2015-11-25T23:33:04Z")
[The surviving Russian pilot has been rescued, and he claims they were never in contact with the Turks on the ground.](http://atimes.com/2015/11/1-of-russian-pilots-of-downed-jet-saved-by-syrian-army-envoy/) Of course, that’s what Putin would want you to believe. [Russia also says it will be deploying anti-aircraft emplacements in Syria and the Foreign Minister says he thinks the Turkish action was premeditated.](http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/25/middleeast/syria-turkey-russia-warplane-shot-down/) ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/170 "2015-11-25T23:53:21Z")
> [@XT](#): > > 😕 So, your point is that the US, France and the rest should just leave it to Assad and Putin because the PTSD will be less if we just let them get on with the killing and get it over with and because whoever comes next will be bad too?? I totally don’t see what you are getting at here, to be honest. Turkey should let the Russians violate their air space because of this as well, or is this separate and just about the US, France and the other coalition members needing to pack it in and leave it to the Syrians and Russians??? No I’m just saying whatever happens, the outcome will be bad. Can you construct a lovely democracy from a traumatised population ? Just following the convo. Never mind, short diversion, back to planes. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/171 "2015-11-25T23:54:08Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > …which nobody but NGOs ever seem to consider. The PTSD of NATO troops gets increasing coverage, which is good - it should do, but there’s virtually nothing in our media about the countries where our forces are active, which has to be whole orders of magnitude greater - whether caused by us or their own rulers. > If there is a danger of US troops going kill crazy one day from PTSD, imagine how many there are in the Arab world just living on a knife edge and without the same level of support or recognition that Westerners get - probably only prayers to try and keep them stable. Good luck with that. Actually, it is increasingly prominent in NGOs working in conflict and post-conflict zones. In refugees areas you’ll see it as “psycho-social services”, and among former fighters it’s a part of rehabilitation. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/172 "2015-11-26T00:00:42Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > > > [The surviving Russian pilot has been rescued, and he claims they were never in contact with the Turks on the ground.](http://atimes.com/2015/11/1-of-russian-pilots-of-downed-jet-saved-by-syrian-army-envoy/) > > > > Of course, that’s what Putin would want you to believe. > > > > [Russia also says it will be deploying anti-aircraft emplacements in Syria and the Foreign Minister says he thinks the Turkish action was premeditated.](http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/25/middleeast/syria-turkey-russia-warplane-shot-down/) Yeah, and those Russians in the Ukraine were almost surely just tourists…and that build up of troops along the border were just made up by NATO most likely. 😛 According to [this](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34925229) BBC report it doesn’t look like war is imminent…just a lot of finger pointing and accusations, with some additional posturing on the part of the Russians. > [@](#): > > Analysis: Sarah Rainsford, BBC News, Moscow > > Clearly furious, President Putin has threatened “serious consequences” after Turkey hit the Russian jet. But so far concrete measures have been limited. > > Russia’s foreign minister spent a fraught hour on the phone to his Turkish counterpart today, but his conclusion was critical: “We do not intend to go to war with Turkey,” Sergei Lavrov assured the world. > > Instead, ministries have been ordered to report back to the Kremlin on any projects involving Turkey, for a decision on possible sanctions. The future of a pipeline project could be in doubt and there have been calls for flights to Turkey to be suspended. > > Meanwhile, tourists have been warned against travelling there for “security reasons”. Last year, Turkey was the destination of choice for over three million Russian holidaymakers. > > On the ground inside Syria the changes have been more immediate. A cruiser has been despatched to help bolster air defences around the Russian base. The sophisticated S400 anti-aircraft system is also being deployed and Russian planes will now be protected on bombing raids by fighter jets. > > The message to Turkey and its allies is clear: Don’t dare try it again. > [@](#): > > Turkey’s President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has defended the action, saying “everyone must respect the right of Turkey to protect its borders”. He has said he does not want to escalate tensions further. > > Turkey is a member of Nato. The alliance has backed Turkey’s version of events, although it, too, is calling for “diplomacy and de-escalation” to resolve the situation. > > Russian defence officials say the plane never entered Turkish territory, and that Turkish pilots made no attempt to communicate with the Russians before they fired. > > The Turkish military has released an audio recording of what it says is a series of warnings to the Russian jet to change its course. > > The Turkish General Staff put out a statement saying it had been in touch with Russian military attaches to explain the rules of engagement that led to the downing of the jet and that it had tried to rescue the pilots. > [@](#): > > Russia has announced fighter jets will now escort its bombers during air strikes over Syria, and Moscow is sending out its most advanced anti-aircraft missile system, the S-400. > > Russia and Turkey have found themselves on opposing sides in Syria’s conflict, with Russia supporting President Bashar al-Assad, while Turkey is a staunch critic. > > Turkey is part of the US-led coalition against the so-called Islamic State (IS) group. US President Barack Obama says the coalition has carried out 8,000 strikes against IS since it began. There is a picture in here of the difference in opinion over the flight paths. While I’m predisposed to distrust the Russians version (the whole ‘are their lips moving? Must be lying then’ thingy), looking at the two versions the Russians flight path LOOKS wonky to me while the Turkish one looks more logical. However, until and unless we get some sort of 3rd party data it’s going to be a he said she said kind of thing. The fact remains that Russia HAS pushed other countries in the past, including Turkey, with their attempts at dominance through sending their air craft to penetrate other nations airspace, so to me this is basically the result of such posturing…they got bit on the ass for it. Probably what Putin wants, actually, though gods know why he thinks this will be a good idea in the long run. Eventually, trying to distract the Russian people with this sort of loopy bullshit is going to turn on him and then I’m not sure where he thinks he’ll be then. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/173 "2015-11-26T00:02:42Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Actually, it is increasingly prominent in NGOs working in conflict and post-conflict zones. In refugees areas you’ll see it as “psycho-social services”, and among former fighters it’s a part of rehabilitation. Is it effective ? ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/174 "2015-11-26T00:30:10Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Actually, it is increasingly prominent in NGOs working in conflict and post-conflict zones. In refugees areas you’ll see it as “psycho-social services”, and among former fighters it’s a part of rehabilitation. > **[Can a Psychopath Learn to Feel Your Pain?](https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/can_a_psychopath_learn_feel_pain)** > > Neuroscientist James Fallon discusses the psychopathic brain, prospects for detection and treatment, and his own struggles to feel empathy and compassion for others. > [@](#): > > **JS: You’re doing some research looking at violence in neighborhoods and countries around the world. Can you describe it for me?** > **JF:** My colleagues and I are putting together large grants to study the impact of living in different neighborhoods and of being in the military on the interaction between genes and brain imaging and all sorts of outcomes. We’ve been putting together proposals to study hot spots around the world—including Palestine, North Africa, Europe and a couple of places in the United States—to see the effect of trauma, abuse, micro-traumas, and bullying over the long haul on individuals and transgenerationally in part of society in these hot spots. We want to answer the question: Does the effect of an early positive environment really overcome genetics? > We look at the positive and negative outcomes—for example, we’re now studying the brains and genetics of people who’ve committed suicide, and we know of generals and colonels for whom combat war actually helped them, a kind of post-traumatic growth instead of depression—and we look at their brains to see how they’re different. There are people undergoing tremendous stressors in hot spots like the West Bank and North Africa, who, for some reason, come out smelling like a rose. And so, the idea that how much of this is genetic and how much is early environment, some of it is taking people who are older and who’ve been through it. > Also, if you have a population in one area or neighborhood with constant violence, and you go a mile away where it hasn’t been that way and you can see that they have the same kind of age, ethnic, educational pattern, etc. without the violence, then you can see how the behaviors are affected or how the genetics are different. You can look for epigenetic markers or tags [associated with changes in gene expression] that have to do with traits that jump generations. > The more new research that comes out, the more it seems that this “epigenetic jumping” may happen in areas of the brain like the orbital cortex that are connected to social behavior. Those are exactly the ones that have to do with psychopathy—with violence and anti-social behavior. So, the social brain is modifiable and, for someone who has been in a war zone or bad neighborhood, these traits can start concentrating, and you can build up a kind of warrior culture. ---
**Author:** ![fire\_hazard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/6de8d8/32.png) [@fire\_hazard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fire_hazard)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/175 "2015-11-26T00:30:44Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > Is it effective ? It seems a lot better than doing nothing. A conflict zone takes generations to resolve. Although it’s an alien concept to “the West” the caliphate idea seems to have a cultural relevance in that part of the world. Maybe the Turks are the bridge to build a caliphate that isn’t actively seeking extermination. “Us or them” seems to cause a lot more trouble than “us and them” A better caliphate than the present version isn’t that hard to imagine? ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/176 "2015-11-26T00:35:12Z")
…more by Fallon on selection of psychopathic traits in conflict areas [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/bs1Re2-NAD4/maxresdefault.jpg "James Fallon - The Mind of a Dictator") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs1Re2-NAD4) But, yeah, what about Germany ? It hit psycho rock bottom, was devastated, but is now one of the more conscientious countries. Could this be just a result of Marshall Plan aid, and without that sort of help it would not be able to develop socially in the way it has done, but would rather be still a very violent aggressive culture ? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/177 "2015-11-26T01:04:03Z")
Nm ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/178 "2015-11-26T01:10:30Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > …more by Fallon on selection of psychopathic traits in conflict areas Personally I think the best possible response to the middle east is to completely disengage from them. Leave them to themselves and spend the money that the US gives to Egypt / Israel on research into renewables and clean nuclear energy. But that will never happen because “politics” ---
**Author:** ![Nema98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d2c977/32.png) [@Nema98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nema98)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2015, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/179 "2015-12-01T23:40:38Z")
An article that illustrates how both Erdogan and Putin are two sides of the same coin. > **[Discord Between Turkey and Russia Is Fueled by Leaders’ Similarities...](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/30/world/europe/2-nations-split-by-the-similarities-of-their-presidents.html?_r=0)** > > Not long ago, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the president of Turkey, earned about the warmest accolade possible from President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia. That was then. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2015, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432/180 "2015-12-02T17:40:48Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Russia has the permission of _a_ Syrian government. True. The gambit of ‘Russians are the only ones invited in by the Syrian govt’ is really stretching form over substance legalisms to the breaking point. It’s fair to say though that ‘the Russians don’t belong there’ is a value judgement based on assessing Russian (Putin that is) motives as less good (more bad) than Western. I’ve perfectly willing to make that judgement, but a lot of people twist themselves into pretzels never to, and a lot of Westerners seem nowadays brought up to question Western, especially US of course, motives first last and always, but give everyone else loads of benefit of the doubt. Strange characteristic of a culture, I wonder how long it can last. Putin’s narrow goal is to prop up Assad, not necessarily bring about an Assad victory and that’s likely beyond his power to do anyway. More broadly Putin wants to foment unrest in the Mideast to prop up oil prices, since prolonged low prices might bring down his own regime. He’s certainly not there to ‘fight terrorism’, except in PR terms. I think it’s reasonable to designate Putin a bad actor in the region just as he clearly is wrt aggression on his own borders. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-downs-russian-jet/738432.md?page=10)