# Turkey in the EU **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2005, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-in-the-eu/324565 "2005-10-03T13:11:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2005, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-in-the-eu/324565/21 "2005-10-03T22:08:10Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > -Some argue that the EU has to stop expanding somewhere. Why? If you play this right, the EU could grow into a world government someday! šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2005, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-in-the-eu/324565/22 "2005-10-03T22:21:44Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Not true: the Islamic Party is in power. The christian party (CDU) might be in power soon in Germany. Beware! Seriouslyā€¦It depends on what kind of ā€œislamic partyā€ you have in mind. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2005, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-in-the-eu/324565/23 "2005-10-03T22:32:48Z")
By the way, I suppose it wouldnā€™t be possible to convince a mod to change the thread title to a paraphrased version that doesnā€™t make me constantly hear fiddle music with a twangy voice singing ā€œTurkey in the E.U., turkey in the hayā€ā€¦? Thought not. Oh well. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-in-the-eu/324565/24 "2005-10-04T08:23:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Gee, then I guess the U.S. and Mexico gotta join too! šŸ˜‰ When both meet the basic democratic and cultural standards the EU expect Iā€™m sure weā€™ll be only too happy to consider their applications. šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-in-the-eu/324565/25 "2005-10-04T08:31:18Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Itā€™s a lot of things : > > -Turkey is muslim, many people donā€™t like that > > -More generally, Turkey is culturally different. Could it cause problems. > > -Some argue that the EU has to stop expanding somewhere. Is Turkey beyond that limit? Whoā€™s next? (Morocco has stated that it will be candidate if Turkey join the Union, for instance). > > -Turkey is poor. Structural aid will have to be augmented and/or diverted from other countries currently benefitng from it. > > -For the same reason, many are affraid that Turks will emigrate ā€œen masseā€ and ā€œstealā€ the european jobs. > > -Turkey has a large population. It would be the second most populated country in the EU after Germany. Some are worried about its future influence (representation in the Parliament, EU commission, etcā€¦) > > -Some people arenā€™t convinced that Turkeyā€™s political stability is guaranteed. Itā€™s not that long ago that the mlitary were in the habit of ousting governments they didnā€™t like. > > -Some are opposed to Turkey joining as long as the Armenian genocide hassnā€™t been recognized. > > -Some are very unwilling to inherit the Kurd probem. > > -Some donā€™t like much the idea of the EU having borders with countries like Syria, Irak and Iran > I probably forgot someā€¦ With the UK having an ageing population profile and therefore a looming pensions crisis due to a low tax base unless we all work til we drop dead I want hard working immigrants paying my pension. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-in-the-eu/324565/26 "2005-10-04T09:41:38Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Itā€™s a lot of things : > ā€¦ > -Some are opposed to Turkey joining as long as the Armenian genocide hasnā€™t been recognized. > ā€¦ Thatā€™s my main beef with Turkey joining the EU. Then again, a good friend of mine lost family in the Armenian genocide, so I freely admit to being biased. CJ ---
**Author:** ![gouda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c77e96/32.png) [@gouda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gouda)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-in-the-eu/324565/27 "2005-10-04T10:50:42Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > With the UK having an ageing population profile and therefore a looming pensions crisis due to a low tax base unless we all work til we drop dead I want hard working immigrants paying my pension. Doesnā€™t this apply to much of western Europe as well? ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-in-the-eu/324565/28 "2005-10-04T14:01:37Z")
The issues to consider are: 1. Why has the EU expanded in the past?; and 2. Does the same rationales apply to Turkey? There have been two types of expansion. The first, which we can largely put aside, has been the accession of fellow rich Western European countries to the Union (or Community, as it was in the past). Such countries included the UK, Denmark, Sweden, etc. The benefit for both sides was lowered trade barriers between significant trading partners, and increased trade bargaining, etc., clout for the Union as a whole. The second, which is more germane, was with poorer nations on the fringes of Europe. This type of expansion began with Greece, Portugal and Spain in the Eighties, and exploded this decade with the inclusion of much of Central and Eastern Europe. The old rationales of increasing trade with significant partners and increased clout didnā€™t really apply - few, if any, of these members had much in the way of an economy, at least when accession talks began. Instead, the purpose was to ensure stable, friendly, and democratic neighbors. Greece, Portugal, and Spain all had been dictatorships for at least part of the 70s, and there was little assurance that they wouldnā€™t revert. The former Soviet bloc countries were at great risk of dictatorship or even anarchy after the Wall fell - witness Romania, Slovakia, and Bulgaria, to name some. The offer of membership made democracy and the rule of law much more attractive to the successor governments in Eastern Europe, thereby providing the EU with borders that did not provide a risk of (or a lesser risk of) civil war, smuggling, environmental degradation, etc. So, what of Turkey? It is a poor, democratically fragile country on the borders of the EU, with a recent history of dictatorship. It is strategically important, and instability and chaos in Turkey will definitely affect the EU. Expansion to include Turkey would make the same sense that expansion to include Eastern Europe did. So, the EU should do it. Iā€™m not arguing that without EU membership, Turkey is doomed to dictatorship and chaos. But EU membership is an insurance policy against such a future. Sua ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-in-the-eu/324565/29 "2005-10-04T16:07:16Z")
It is kind of funny how people are worried about separation of church and state in Turkey. Many European countries have official state religions. I can think of one European country where the head of state is required by law to belong to a particular religion and is prohibited from marrying outside their religion. If thatā€™s not a violation of separation of church and state I donā€™t know what is. Interestingly enough, this theocratic country is highly irreligious, amost no one attends church, and nobody cares. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2005, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-in-the-eu/324565/30 "2005-10-04T16:18:01Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > It is kind of funny how people are worried about separation of church and state in Turkey. Many European countries have official state religions. I can think of one European country where the head of state is required by law to belong to a particular religion and is prohibited from marrying outside their religion. If thatā€™s not a violation of separation of church and state I donā€™t know what is. Interestingly enough, this theocratic country is highly irreligious, amost no one attends church, and nobody cares. The difference is in the UK we donā€™t take religion seriously so the actual influence of the Church of England on Govt policy is negligible and its ability to influence private behaviour zero. Not that I see the current Turkish balance as any sort of problem. so long as they sign up to and stick to relevant European legislation Iā€™m fine with it. Iā€™m less fine with our own govt trying to wriggle out of inconvenient parts of the Human Rights Act. ---
**Author:** ![Jojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecd19e/32.png) [@Jojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jojo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-in-the-eu/324565/31 "2005-10-05T03:47:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, and the AKP won power in 2002 in large margin because it campaigned on a platform of shelving its Islamist roots in favor of EU integration. With the exception of the proposal to allow religious school graduates into college, I strain to think of a single policy initiative the government has made that would substantively indicate an interest in reversing the secularist policies. > . > . > . > If you want to make the case that the AKP is hiding their religious agenda, then explain your case. There are certainly points to be made here. But simply calling the AKP an Islamist party is a very poor argument. Youā€™ll have to do better than that. Well, a year ago they tried to introduce a law punishing adultery by imprisonment. They were only forced to withdraw this proposed law when the EU said that they would be denied membership if they passed it. It could be said that the EU has enough problems as it is harmonising the economies of many vastly different states without having to watch out for member countries trying to pass adultery laws on the quiet. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3676430.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3676430.stm) ---
**Author:** ![bannerrefugee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c68b51/32.png) [@bannerrefugee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bannerrefugee)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-in-the-eu/324565/32 "2005-10-05T04:08:13Z")
I think Turkey may become a bit of a puppet to the US in Euro affairs should they grant it membership. The Euro already has a lap dog with Britain. That said if Turkish human rights practices, and changed I might feel differently. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-in-the-eu/324565/33 "2005-10-05T05:18:29Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > It is kind of funny how people are worried about separation of church and state in Turkey. Many European countries have official state religions. I can think of one European country where the head of state is required by law to belong to a particular religion and is prohibited from marrying outside their religion. If thatā€™s not a violation of separation of church and state I donā€™t know what is. Interestingly enough, this theocratic country is highly irreligious, amost no one attends church, and nobody cares. Vatican City, right? šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-in-the-eu/324565/34 "2005-10-05T05:24:32Z")
Many radical Islamists dream of a new Caliphate encompassing all the Muslim world. I doubt such a project could ever take hold because I canā€™t see any possible or even imaginable candidate for a new Caliph upon whom most Muslims would agree. But, if it were a possibility, Turkeyā€™s membership in the EU would forestall the possibility of its being included, and might diminish its perceived legitimacy. In short, perhaps we should continue to encourage the Turks to look west, not east. ---
**Author:** ![hildea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ebca7d/32.png) [@hildea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hildea)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-in-the-eu/324565/35 "2005-10-05T07:25:09Z")
\ > [@Lemur866](#): > > I can think of one European country where the head of state is required by law to belong to a particular religion and is prohibited from marrying outside their religion. If thatā€™s not a violation of separation of church and state I donā€™t know what is. Interestingly enough, this theocratic country is highly irreligious, amost no one attends church, and nobody cares. Which oneā€™s that? I donā€™t doubt you, Iā€™m just curious to know. (Incidentally, apart from the ā€œhead of state ā€¦ prohibited from marrying outside their religionā€ your description closely matches Norway.) \ The concept ā€œseparation of church and stateā€ isnā€™t such a ā€“ pardon the expression ā€“ sacred concept in many European countries as itā€™s in US. As you said yourself, and as **tagos** mentioned, thereā€™s not neccessarily a strong correlation between religious trappings left in old laws and religious influence in modern politics. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-in-the-eu/324565/36 "2005-10-05T11:37:54Z")
> [@hildea](#): > > \ > Which oneā€™s that? I donā€™t doubt you, Iā€™m just curious to know. (Incidentally, apart from the ā€œhead of state ā€¦ prohibited from marrying outside their religionā€ your description closely matches Norway.) The monarch of England has to be a member of the Anglican Church. The monarch of Denmark has to be a member of the Danish National Protestant Church. But those are only titular rulers. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-in-the-eu/324565/37 "2005-10-05T14:19:53Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Itā€™s bigotry, pure and simple. As far as iā€™m concerned, not being religious, the EU isnā€™t Christian, itā€™s European. Nonsense. Not saying I agree but there are many legitimate reasons to oppose Turkish membership of EU that have nothing to do with bigotry; economic, size, culture, religion, price tag, limits, etc. Writing it all off beforehand as simple bigotry is little helpful and a great deal arrogant. Also youā€™d be calling some 70% of EUs population bigoted, as only about 30% apparently favour a Turkish membership. Thatā€™s what, 320 million bigoted Europeans we have here? Personally I do think Turkey should be taken in. But only if a majority of Europeans think so too. Going across the wish of a clear majority is undemocratic. > [@Ravenman](#): > > But the separation between mosque and state is probably stricter in Turkey than the separation b/t church and state is in the US. Government workers are not allowed to display any relgious symbols at work, to the point that women are prohibited from wearing veils in public buildings. Prayer is prohibited in government institutions (compare that to the US Congress!) According to many Turks Iā€™ve spoken to, the idea of putting In God We Trust (or a similar phrase) on Turkeyā€™s lira is generally considered to be bizarre and offensive. Hereā€™s the Turkish embassy in Denmark: [http://www.turkembassy.dk](http://www.turkembassy.dk) And hereā€™s their link: Social Affairs-Religion: [http://www.turkembassy.dk/social.htm](http://www.turkembassy.dk/social.htm) And under that the link: **THE PATHWAY TO HAPPINESS: Islam** : [http://www.turkembassy.dk/mkt142.htm](http://www.turkembassy.dk/mkt142.htm) And it has amongs other thing, this passage: > [@](#): > > Islam is the latest and the most perfect religion. Muhammed (peace to be upon him) who conveyed it to the humanity, is the last of the prophets. The Holy Koran, the fundamental book of Islam, is the last message sent to the humanity by Allah Almighty through Muhammed (peace to be upon him). Donā€™t sound terrible secular to me. Do you have such descriptions of Christianity on American embassy sites? I didnā€™t find one on the US embassy in Denmark. The Turkish ministry of religion defines secularism thus: > [@](#): > > ā€œSecularism [ā€¦] means providing freedom to individuals and to public institutions in the interpretation of religion and in the production and transmission of religious knowledgeā€ I.e. not an absence of religion (Islam) in public institutions, but a freedom for public institutions on how to interprent and transmit Islam. Moreover not merely teaching of, but proselyting of, Islam is, as per the Turkish constitution, a required part of the Turkish curricular in public as well as private school ā€“ unless you belong to one of the few acknowledged minorities (Jews, Greek-orthodox, Armenian Orthodox) and specifically ot out. Members of other religious groups (Syrian-Christians, Catholics, Protestants, etc.), (Sunni) Muslim or not, cannot get such dispensations, and are forced to sit through hours of proselyting and to go through the steps of practising Islam; praying, ritual cleansing, etc. There are many other problems re. the state and religion. Religious minorities are not allowed to buy new properties or even restore or repair existing churches and other holy sites, without first getting a state permission - which is seldom given. Foreign preaches from religious minorities may not preach in Turkish churches. In 1971 the Greek-Orthodox church had its school expropriated, and has since then not been able to train new priests. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-in-the-eu/324565/38 "2005-10-05T14:55:51Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Nonsense. Not saying I agree but there are many legitimate reasons to oppose Turkish membership of EU that have nothing to do with bigotry; economic, size, culture, religion, price tag, limits, etc. Writing it all off beforehand as simple bigotry is little helpful and a great deal arrogant. Also youā€™d be calling some 70% of EUs population bigoted, as only about 30% apparently favour a Turkish membership. Oh good. Weā€™re hurling insults now without reading. I was clearly referring to Austriaā€™s current actions and yes, I reckon thatā€™s largely down to bigotry. > [@](#): > > Professor Anton Pelinka of Innsbruck University told the BBC News website that both the Austrian government and Austrian public opinion had been hardening against the idea of Turkish membership in recent months. > > ā€œItā€™s a lot to do with xenophobia,ā€ he said. > > ā€œAs in other EU states, discussion of EU matters has been very much confined to the political elite. Now this has suddenly become a broader debate and people who are not interested in European affairs fear that it will mean foreigners coming to Austria, and not even Christians - of course there is a bit of Islamophobia in it.ā€ [Why Austria was a sticking point](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4304396.stm) > [@](#): > > Europeans do not like to admit they are xenophobic, but much of the resistance to starting EU membership talks with Turkey has less to do with geopolitics and more to do with good, old fashioned mistrust of foreigners ā€“ especially dark-skinned, Muslim ones. > ā€œWe will be overrun,ā€ Gottfried Piswanger, a 49-year old Viennese butcher told the International Herald Tribune newspaper, referring to the possible opening of EU membership negotiations with the large, predominantly Muslim country on Europeā€™s eastern fringes. ā€œWe are already too full. And when they come, they do not adjust.ā€ Another middle-aged retailer said: ā€œIt would be terrible. Only the bad ones come, while the decent people stay in Turkey.ā€ > Fears of hordes of Turks streaming into Austria in search of work ā€“ if Ankara ever joins the EU ā€“ run deep in this wealthy Alpine state. In a recent opinion poll carried out by the European Commission, 80 percent of Austrians said they opposed Turkish membership of the Union ā€“ the highest percentage in the 25-state bloc. > The government appears happy to echo public hostility towards Turkish membership in the EUā€™s corridors of power. [International Times](http://www.washingtontimes.com/upi/20051003-122524-5273r.htm) > [@](#): > > Since the publication of ECRIā€™s second report on Austria, progress has been achieved in a number of areas covered in that report. Austria has ratified the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages and made the declaration under article 14 of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, enabling individuals to file petitions before the Committee for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination. Some steps have been taken to improve the conduct of law enforcement officials vis-Ć -vis non-citizens and members of other minority groups, including measures to prevent the use of excessive violence during deportations and provision of human rights training and training in policing a multicultural society. The Human Rights Advisory Board has provided useful guidance in effecting changes in these fields. Progress has been made in the provision of human rights education in schools. Non-EU citizens have been granted eligibility and voting rights in municipal elections in Vienna. Furthermore, anti-discrimination legislation is currently pending before the Parliament and is planned to be adopted in 2004. > > However, several recommendations made in ECRIā€™s second report have not been implemented, or only partly so. Measures adopted in the asylum field since ECRIā€™s second report have diminished the protection awarded to this group of persons in Austria and have had a seriously negative impact on public opinionā€™s support for these persons. Public debate in the political arena and in the media on issues relevant to asylum seekers, non-EU citizens and other minority groups has often been characterised by racist and xenophobic overtones. Racism and racial discrimination still affects the daily lives of members of minority groups, and particularly of Black Africans, Muslims and Roma, in many areas of public life. Manifestations of antisemitism also still represent an issue of concern of ECRI in Austria. The continuing marked differentiation in law and practice between, on the one hand, Austrian and other EU citizens and, on the other, non-EU citizens, negatively affects the social and political integration of all segments of Austrian society. Furthermore, a number of international treaties relevant to combating racism and intolerance have not yet been ratified by Austria. > > In this report, ECRI recommends that the Austrian authorities take additional measures in a number of fields. These fields include the need to ratify Protocol No. 12 to the European Convention on Human Rights, which lays down a general prohibition of discrimination, and the need to fine-tune national legislation against racism and racial discrimination and to ensure that it is adequately implemented. In this respect, ECRI recommends in particular the establishment of an independent specialised body to combat racism and racial discrimination. ECRI also recommends measures to ensure that the rights of asylum seekers are thoroughly respected. It recommends measures to counter racist and xenophobic speech in public debate and particularly in the political arena. Further action is also suggested to improve the conduct of law enforcement officials vis-Ć -vis non-citizens and members of minority groups. ECRI also recommends measures aimed at reducing the gaps existing in law and in practice between Austrian nationals and non-EU citizens, particularly in employment, education and in the enjoyment of other social as well as civil and political rights. [Euro Commission on Racial Intolerance re Austria](http://www.coe.int/t/E/human_rights/ecri/1-ECRI/2-Country-by-country_approach/Austria/Austria_CBC_3.asp#P73_3723) This is GD not the Pit. Try doing some research before jerking your knee and parsing posts for something to take offence to. That xenophobia runs deep in Austria isnā€™t exactly new. Any reasonably informed European knows this. Kindly desist from extrapolating my opinions to suit yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-in-the-eu/324565/39 "2005-10-05T21:51:50Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Oh good. Weā€™re hurling insults now without reading. I was clearly referring to Austriaā€™s current actions and yes, I reckon thatā€™s largely down to bigotry. It seems to me itā€™s you doing most of the insulting here. And not that it makes a difference, but you ā€œclearlyā€ said no such thing. ā€œ_Itā€™s bigotry, pure and simple. As far as iā€™m concerned, not being religious, the EU isnā€™t Christian, itā€™s European.ā€_ā€ wherein in this do you clearly find a reference to Austria. This is really Internet debating ABC, but default is addressing the OP. If you are not addressing the OP but commenting some other post in the thread, you should state so specifically or quote the bits you are commenting on. Just happening to be below a post that had one mention of Austria in parentheses is not enough to make it clear that you were only talking about Austria. Alternatively you could have specifically said you were focusing solely on Austria or included some quotes that made it clear. etc. You did none of these things. Not that it makes a difference. 90% of Austrians have some objections to Turkey joining the union. Thatā€™s more than 7 million people you with one sweeping hand arrogantly dismiss to a category of merely bigoted individuals. And saying xenophobia runs deep in Austria makes it little better, thatā€™s about the same as saying something like we clearly should not let Turkey join the union as Turks are a bunch of bigoted korananimals. What we need do if we want to be called democratic, is address the legitimate worries and questions that Austrians and the rest of Europeans have. Not dismiss them with mere insults. I for one want to know whether my children, if I should move to Turkey, if they would then be forced to sit through Muslim proselytization and doing Islamic prayers. We have Muslim Imams from Turkey in Denmark, but they wonā€™t allow Danish priests in Turkey. Thatā€™s not going to work. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2005, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-in-the-eu/324565/40 "2005-10-05T22:19:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Vatican City, right? šŸ™‚ Vatican City isnā€™t a member of the European Union. Theyā€™d never get in with their human rights record, being an absolute monarchy and not allowing minority religions to be practiced. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-in-the-eu/324565.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-in-the-eu/324565.md?page=3)