# Turkey vs. turkey **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 8, 2001, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-vs-turkey/92175 "2001-11-08T13:25:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-vs-turkey/92175/1 "2001-11-08T13:25:53Z")
Two-Part Question: a) This might sound odd, but is the proper name “Turkey” just a Western-world transliteration of some hard-to-pronounce Islamic name? Do the Turkish call it “Turkey”? b) Is there any relation in between “Turkey” and why we call a certain bird a turkey? I had to ask… - Jinx ---
**Author:** ![Popup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@Popup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Popup)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-vs-turkey/92175/2 "2001-11-08T13:31:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jinx \* > \*\*a) This might sound odd, but is the proper name “Turkey” just a Western-world transliteration of some hard-to-pronounce Islamic name? Do the Turkish call it “Turkey”? > \*\* The [CIA world factbook](http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/tu.html) is your friend. > [@](#): > > local long form: Turkiye Cumhuriyeti > local short form: Turkiye Looks pretty close to ‘Turkey’ to me. > [@](#): > > \*\*b) Is there any relation in between “Turkey” and why we call a certain bird a turkey? > \*\* Covered by [WorldWideWords](http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/turkey.htm) > [@](#): > > About 1530, a new dish began to be put on English tables, a fowl a little larger than the traditional goose, but with a lot more meat and a refreshingly new taste. This bird had been brought to England by merchants trading out of that area of the eastern Mediterranean called the Levant but whom the English called “Turkey merchants” because that whole area was then part of the Turkish empire. The new bird was therefore called a “Turkey bird”, or “Turkey cock”. > … > The interesting thing about the mistake over the turkey’s origins is that the English were the only people to believe they came from Turkey; nearly everyone else, including the Turks, thought they originated in India, or at least in the place they then thought was India. Turkeys actually came from Mexico and were first brought back from there about 1520, at a time when that area was called The Spanish Indies or the New Indies, illustrating the confusion in people’s minds about the true location of this new land that Columbus had found. As a result, a lot of European languages, as well as others like Arabic and Hebrew, called it something like the “bird of India”. > > But in a few languages, including Danish, Dutch, German, Finnish and Norwegian, the bird was named instead as coming from Calicut (German Calecutishe Hahn, Dutch kalkoense hahn, Danish kalkun), which is a seaport on the Malabar coast of India, the same place after which calico is named. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-vs-turkey/92175/3 "2001-11-08T13:47:18Z")
A couple of years ago there werer commercials running on the Sunday morning news shows, sponsored by the government of Turkey, in which they made a very definite point of spelling and pronouncing the name of their country as **Turkiye** (“turk-ee-yeh” or “toork-ee-yeh”). I suspect that “Turkey” is an imposition of English mapmakers and gazetteers. The English have a long tradition of not going out of their way to pronounce or spell place names so that they agree with the way the inhabitants did so. I think they regarded it as “condescending”. Americans inherited the habit, and to some degree kept it up themselves, although in more recent history everyone has been getting more “sensitive” to this issue. But “Turkey” has a lot of historical momentum behind it, and I don’t see it changing anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-vs-turkey/92175/4 "2001-11-08T14:22:58Z")
Stay tuned for a Staff Report on this very subject that should be coming out in the next few weeks. ---
**Author:** ![Wumpus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8c91f0/32.png) [@Wumpus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wumpus)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-vs-turkey/92175/5 "2001-11-08T15:20:36Z")
English is hardly unique in mangling or ignoring the natives’ words/pronounciations for their native locations. The French call Germany “Allemagne,” not Deutchland. The Germans call France “Frankreich.” The Japanese call England “Igirisu.” Etc., Etc. Makes you wonder how we communicate at all, really. ---
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-vs-turkey/92175/6 "2001-11-08T15:33:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bibliophage \* > \*\*Stay tuned for a Staff Report on this very subject that should be coming out in the next few weeks. \*\* I’m no world history buff, but one Doper points to a reference mentioning “the Turkish Empire” about 1530? I thought it was the Ottoman empire back then… Maybe my facts are skewed? Hope Uncle Cecil will set us straight for good mealtime discussion this Thanksgiving! As Cliffy of Cheers would say “It’s a little known fact…” - Jinx ---
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-vs-turkey/92175/7 "2001-11-08T15:38:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tc \* > \*\*…as well as others like Arabic and Hebrew, called it something like the “bird of India”…but in a few languages, including Danish, Dutch, German, Finnish and Norwegian, the bird was named instead as coming from Calicut (German Calecutishe Hahn, Dutch kalkoense hahn, Danish kalkun), which is a seaport on the Malabar coast of India, the same place after which calico is named. \*\* [/QUOTE] a) Hebrew word, I am told, sounds like “turkey”…could well have entered the language (back then) just as many modern English words infiltrate other languages, for example. b) Calicut? Is that an old name for Calcutta, perhaps? - Jinx ---
**Author:** ![Popup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@Popup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Popup)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-vs-turkey/92175/8 "2001-11-08T16:20:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jinx \* > **I’m no world history buff, but one Doper points to a reference mentioning “the Turkish Empire” about 1530? I thought it was the Ottoman empire back then…** Not quite, but even the Ottoman Empire was a turkish empire. Turkish can mean so much more than just ‘of or relating to Turkey’. There have been several turk peoples in the world, and only a fraction of them have lived in present-day Turkey. The most famous example is probably the Huns, (of Attila fame). The Ottomans didn’t grow to force until well into the 14th century, so the ‘turkish’ merchants referred to were more likelly remnants of the Great Seljuk Empire, (which was at its strongest in the 13th century). > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jinx \* > **b) Calicut? Is that an old name for Calcutta, perhaps?** Nope! Calcutta is in north-east, whereas Calicut is in south-west. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-vs-turkey/92175/9 "2001-11-08T20:34:58Z")
According to OED, the origin of the word “Turk” is unknown, although they do speculate that is might be related to Chinese _tu-kin_, which was the name given to “a people living south of the Altai Mountains circa 177 BC.” ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-vs-turkey/92175/10 "2001-11-08T20:58:15Z")
I thought that the turkey was native to the new world. Is the turkey cock that tc post talks about the same a turkey that is sold for eating in the states? ---
**Author:** ![Popup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@Popup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Popup)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-vs-turkey/92175/11 "2001-11-09T07:27:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gazpacho \* > \*\*I thought that the turkey was native to the new world. Is the turkey cock that tc post talks about the same a turkey that is sold for eating in the states? \*\* Quoting from my own post above: > [@](#): > > Turkeys actually came from Mexico I believe that is about as New-World as it gets. On re-reading I see that I had somehow lost track of time. The turkish empire mentioned of the 1540s was of course the Ottoman Empire. Please forget all my references to the Seljuks. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-vs-turkey/92175/12 "2001-11-09T09:25:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tc \* > **There have been several turk peoples in the world, and only a fraction of them have lived in present-day Turkey. The most famous example is probably the Huns, (of Attila fame).** I don’t believe there is a consensus on who the Huns were, or even whether they were of a homogenous ethnicity. They may, as you say, have been Turkic, but this is primarily a linguistic grouping, and we don’t know what language they spoke. For what it’s worth, the Hungarians consider Atila/Atli/Etzel/the scourge of God one of their own. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-vs-turkey/92175/13 "2001-11-09T12:59:33Z")
In Turkey, the turkey is called _hindi_. This comes from the name the Ottoman Turks used for the New World, _Hind-i Garb_ (‘India of the West’). The Turkish name of Turkey itself is T **ü** rkiye. Its use goes back only to the establishment of the republic in 1923. The Ottoman state before that was named Devlet-i Aliye-i Osmaniye (The Sublime Ottoman State). The Ottomans themselves did not call their country an empire, that was a European usage. I think they came up with the name Türkiye to correspond with the English or French form of the name. Or maybe the Arabic form of it, which is _Turkiyah_. At any rate, it had been called “Turkey” or “La Turquie” for centuries before they started using the name Türkiye. I’d noticed they had this big campaign to get English speakers to say “Türkiye,” but that got nowhere. They did, however, succeed in getting us to say Istanbul, Izmir, and Ankara instead of Constantinople, Smyrna, and Angora. But back in the 1930s Winston Churchill absolutely refused to say “Istanbul.” His generation died out and that was that. ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-vs-turkey/92175/14 "2001-11-09T14:39:31Z")
[hijack] How much do frozen turkeys cost in the US? I have never bought one here in Australia, and yesterday was looking at them. I was quite shocked to see they were nearly $AU70 (that’s about $US35). I figure there’s not so big a market here for them, but was curious to know what American turkey prices are like. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-vs-turkey/92175/15 "2001-11-09T15:15:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jinx \* > a) Hebrew word, I am told, sounds like “turkey”…could well have entered the language (back then) just as many modern English words infiltrate other languages, for example. Hebrew word for turkey is “of hodoo” which loosely translates to “chicken of India.” I wouldn’t put it past some clever Israelis to call turkey “turkey” because using English, especially on restaurant menus, seems to be quite fashionable in Israel. Many dishes have English/imported names – salat, hotdog, hamburger, cheesetoast, chipsim (french fries). At least as far as I remember. ---
**Author:** ![Andy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aeb1de/32.png) [@Andy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-vs-turkey/92175/16 "2001-11-09T15:56:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wumpus \* > English is hardly unique in mangling or ignoring the natives’ words/pronounciations for their native locations. The French call Germany “Allemagne,” not Deutchland. The Germans call France “Frankreich.” The Japanese call England “Igirisu.” Etc., Etc. Makes you wonder how we communicate at all, really. Isn’t this a subtley different point though, relating to what ‘we’ call a country and what the rest of the world calls it? [Cecil says…](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_162.html) > [@](#): > > There is no necessary correspondence between a nation’s name for itself and the name outsiders bestow upon it ---
**Author:** ![Necros](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/necros/32/11086_2.png) [@Necros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necros)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-vs-turkey/92175/17 "2001-11-09T16:46:55Z")
**cazzle** asked: > [@](#): > > How much do frozen turkeys cost in the US? I have never bought one here in Australia, and yesterday was looking at them. I was quite shocked to see they were nearly $AU70 (that’s about $US35). Turkeys are one of those things that can vary widely in price. You can get a turkey for free sometimes, and you can pay over US $100 for one, depending on the quality and size. Prices somewhere in the range of US$2-US$5 a pound would not be unreasonable, so your US$35 bird seems OK in price. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-vs-turkey/92175/18 "2001-11-09T17:11:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tc \* > The Ottomans didn’t grow to force until well into the 14th century, so the ‘turkish’ merchants referred to were more likelly remnants of the Great Seljuk Empire, (which was at its strongest in the 13th century). Very slight correction - the Seljuqs were waning badly by the 13th century ( by and large ). They reached their height in the late 11th/early 12th. Central and eastern Anatolia was still under the declining Seljuq successor state, the Sultanate of Iconium ( Rum ) in the early part of the century. But they were conquered by the Mongols and mostly incoporated into the Il-Khanate ( roughly 1260-1335 ). - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-vs-turkey/92175/19 "2001-11-09T17:14:32Z")
The Mexicans call the turkey _pavo_, which originally meant ‘peacock’. (The turkey may have a somewhat showy tail, but it’s not quite peacock quality in my view.) Now that this analogy is in place… The Biblical Hebrew word for ‘peacock’ is _tukki_. King Solomon’s ships traveled to exotic lands and famously brought back “ivory, apes, and peacocks” (3 Kings 10:22). In the Hebrew text, the word used for ‘peacock’ is _tukki_, which apparently comes from the Tamil word for peacock: _tôkai_. It’s the similarity of Hebrew _tukki_ and English _turkey_, alongside the Mexican Spanish use of _pavo_ to mean ‘turkey’, that has inspired some people to derive English _turkey_ from Hebrew. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2001, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkey-vs-turkey/92175/20 "2001-11-13T05:55:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by edwino \* > \*\* > > Hebrew word for turkey is “of hodoo” which loosely translates to “chicken of India.” I wouldn’t put it past some clever Israelis to call turkey “turkey” because using English, especially on restaurant menus, seems to be quite fashionable in Israel. Many dishes have English/imported names – salat, hotdog, hamburger, cheesetoast, chipsim (french fries). At least as far as I remember. \*\* A more correct translation would be _tarnegol hodu_, but I’ve heard _of_ used instead (most Israelis just call it _hodu_ - “India”). I’ve never seen it referred to as “turkey”, though. Did you know that Israelis are the largest consumers of turkey in the world? More than twice as much as Americans, per capita. OTOH, it’s rarely eaten whole, Thanksgiving-style, but rather largely processed and used where other nations would use beef (hotdogs, pastrame, schnitzels). Israeli beef tends to be generally crappy. > [@](#): > > \*\* > The Biblical Hebrew word for ‘peacock’ is tukki. King Solomon’s ships traveled to exotic lands and famously brought back “ivory, apes, and peacocks” (3 Kings 10:22). In the Hebrew text, the word used for ‘peacock’ is tukki, which apparently comes from the Tamil word for peacock: tôkai. It’s the similarity of Hebrew tukki and English turkey, alongside the Mexican Spanish use of pavo to mean ‘turkey’, that has inspired some people to derive English turkey from Hebrew.\*\* _Tuki_ is in fact Hebrew for “parrot”; the word for “peacock” is _tavas_.