# Turkey's ruling Islamist party wins elections, keeps power **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 22, 2007, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkeys-ruling-islamist-party-wins-elections-keeps-power/412781 "2007-07-22T22:31:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkeys-ruling-islamist-party-wins-elections-keeps-power/412781/1 "2007-07-22T22:31:07Z")
Stories [here](http://ca.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2007-07-22T170543Z_01_L21280970_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-TURKEY-ELECTION-COL.XML) and [here.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/22/AR2007072200231.html?hpid=topnews) At least, the stories **describe** the [Justice and Development Party](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_and_Development_Party_%28Turkey%29) as “Islamic-based” and its main rivals, the [Republican People’s Party](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_People%27s_Party_%28Turkey%29) and the [Party](]Nationalist Movement [or "Action) as “secularist.” OTOH, the [WaPo account](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/22/AR2007072200231.html?hpid=topnews) states: > [@](#): > > The country has an emboldened class of devout Muslims led by the ruling party, which is willing to pursue Western-style reforms in order to strengthen the economy and join the European Union. Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has presided over strong economic results, including reduced inflation, more foreign investment and average annual growth of 7 percent. > > “Things are going well, there’s stability in the economy,” said Kadem Diner, a catering company owner. “I think it would be insane to ruin stability by voting for someone else.” > > The success of the ruling Justice and Development Party has often been touted as proof that Islam and democracy can coexist, although its detractors accuse Erdogan and his allies of plotting to scrap Turkey’s secular traditions despite their openness to the West. > > Many of these government opponents constitute a traditional elite and have roots in state institutions such as the courts and the military, guardians of the secular legacy of national founder Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. > > They argue that personal freedoms \_ such as the right to drink alcohol or a woman’s choice of clothing \_ are in peril, but they have more of an authoritarian background and less of a reformist record than the government. > > “I want our government to protect secularism,” said banker Burcin Atalay, who voted for the Republican People’s Party. So, while Islamism vs. secularism is a factor here, it’s not the only aspect, and the JDP clearly is not “Islamist” in the way the rulers of Iran are Islamist. Anyway, what does this mean for Turkey’s future? And for its relations with other countries? And for the Kurds? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkeys-ruling-islamist-party-wins-elections-keeps-power/412781/2 "2007-07-22T22:42:00Z")
I’ve seen the whole situation framed more as “democracy vs. secularism”, though of course Islam and conservative viewpoints are an important factor. I don’t really know enough to say how fair a view that is though. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkeys-ruling-islamist-party-wins-elections-keeps-power/412781/3 "2007-07-22T23:35:23Z")
I can’t find any Kurdish separatist parties listed [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Turkey#Political_parties_and_elections) – presumably they’re all banned. Which makes me wonder: Among the range of choices allowed them, how do the Turkish Kurds vote? (They **can** vote, I’m sure.) ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2007, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkeys-ruling-islamist-party-wins-elections-keeps-power/412781/4 "2007-07-23T06:41:41Z")
What I’ve heard is that parties with less than 10% of the vote aren’t allowed to send deputies to Parliament. Therefore, Kurdish nationalists were running as independents in this election. I guess some of them were elected. ETA: [Here](http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=1295) is the Fruits and Votes article on the election results. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkeys-ruling-islamist-party-wins-elections-keeps-power/412781/5 "2007-07-25T21:43:58Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] I can’t find any Kurdish separatist parties listed [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Turkey#Political_parties_and_elections) – presumably they’re all banned. Which makes me wonder: Among the range of choices allowed them, how do the Turkish Kurds vote? (They **can** vote, I’m sure.) [/QUOTE] The big Kurdish party is the Democratic Society Party (formerly the Democratic People’s Party), but like **severus** said, they ran as independents this time to get around the 10% threshhold. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2007, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkeys-ruling-islamist-party-wins-elections-keeps-power/412781/6 "2007-07-25T21:55:46Z")
[QUOTE=severus] What I’ve heard is that parties with less than 10% of the vote aren’t allowed to send deputies to Parliament. Therefore, Kurdish nationalists were running as independents in this election. I guess some of them were elected. [/QUOTE] The official view is that only about 7-8% of Turkey’s population is Kurdish, but other sources place the figure as high as 20%. See [here.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Turkey#Kurds) ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkeys-ruling-islamist-party-wins-elections-keeps-power/412781/7 "2007-07-29T18:44:10Z")
Attaturk was a hell of a lot ahead of his time and as a result Turkeys national thinking is a lot more advanced then most middle eastern nations . If the Islamists get out of hand there will be a military coup,not at the behest of the west but for themselves and they will get the backing of most of the population. They are a very tough and honourable people, generous and straightforward in their dealings . A few years ago I was arrested there and spent some time banged up with left wing journalists and editors and then as a complete contrast with right wing terrorists known as “The Grey Wolves”. They are a people who from both ends of the political spectrum I admire greatly and with whom most I would literally trust with my life. I get on very well with the Kurds also its sad that they hold so much enmity for each other. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkeys-ruling-islamist-party-wins-elections-keeps-power/412781/8 "2007-08-01T08:20:08Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Anyway, what does this mean for Turkey’s future? And for its relations with other countries? And for the Kurds? [/QUOTE] It’s good news. The JDP is ‘Islamic’ but has won this election based on sound government policies and fiscal management. They aren’t out for the Shariah law here and are looking more at just allowing women to wear veils again. That the military has allowed the popular candidate to win despite their secular stand is taken as a sign of maturity by the EU…which’ll help come time to decide if Turkey gets in. Turkey has always walked a tightrope, secularize too long and you get an Ayatollah, allow an Islamic party in too early and you get Algeria. The party **will** give up power if voted out of office…the military will see to that. I don’t think the Kurdish question has changed at all with an Islamic party in office. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkeys-ruling-islamist-party-wins-elections-keeps-power/412781/9 "2007-08-01T13:51:33Z")
[QUOTE=Sitnam] I don’t think the Kurdish question has changed at all with an Islamic party in office. [/QUOTE] What would change it, I wonder? Things are never going to be satisfactorily quiet in that part of the world until Kurdistan, including Turkish Kurdistan, is independent. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkeys-ruling-islamist-party-wins-elections-keeps-power/412781/10 "2007-08-02T09:01:59Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] What would change it, I wonder? Things are never going to be satisfactorily quiet in that part of the world until Kurdistan, including Turkish Kurdistan, is independent. [/QUOTE] The Turkish Kurds have a say in Parliament (9 Kurds currently represent their districts and have in the past been relied on a few times for a coalition gov’t), I’m not saying everythings perfect there, but the twin Kurdish governments in northern Iraq can’t stop separatists from launching attacks on Turkey from within their own country. Logic dictates that they want to stop it, it makes no sense for Kurds already managing a sort of fledgling homeland to start shit elsewere, they just can’t. I’m actually optimistic for the Kurds future. I know Turkeys nervous about a northern Iraqi Kurdistan, but they also don’t want Shariah law and strife on their border either. If the Iraqi Kurds can convince the AK government they don’t want Turkish land, a Kurdistan is the perfect buffer. We already know Kurds can handle their shit internally, a few nutcases aside, and they aren’t a part of the civil war in the south which will keep north Iraq quiet. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkeys-ruling-islamist-party-wins-elections-keeps-power/412781/11 "2007-08-02T09:34:37Z")
[QUOTE=Sitnam] The Turkish Kurds have a say in Parliament (9 Kurds currently represent their districts and have in the past been relied on a few times for a coalition gov’t), I’m not saying everythings perfect there, but the twin Kurdish governments in northern Iraq can’t stop separatists from launching attacks on Turkey from within their own country. Logic dictates that they want to stop it, it makes no sense for Kurds already managing a sort of fledgling homeland to start shit elsewere, they just can’t. I’m actually optimistic for the Kurds future. I know Turkeys nervous about a northern Iraqi Kurdistan, but they also don’t want Shariah law and strife on their border either. If the Iraqi Kurds can convince the AK government they don’t want Turkish land, a Kurdistan is the perfect buffer. We already know Kurds can handle their shit internally, a few nutcases aside, and they aren’t a part of the civil war in the south which will keep north Iraq quiet. [/QUOTE] But the Kurds DO want part of Turkey. And part of Iran too. They want what they consider to be their ‘homeland’. And neither the Turks nor the Iranians want a fledgling, oil rich, Kurdish state on their border. They know it will continue to harbour nationalistic ambitions and they know its mere existence will destabilize the loyalty of their own Kurdish population. And the Kurds are Muslims. Sharia Law and all. As per Article 7 of the Constitution of Iraq the state religion is Islam. Sharia Law is one of the basis of the legal system, particularly in the personal area. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkeys-ruling-islamist-party-wins-elections-keeps-power/412781/12 "2007-08-02T09:59:10Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] But the Kurds DO want part of Turkey. And part of Iran too. They want what they consider to be their ‘homeland’. And neither the Turks nor the Iranians want a fledgling, oil rich, Kurdish state on their border. They know it will continue to harbour nationalistic ambitions and they know its mere existence will destabilize the loyalty of their own Kurdish population. And the Kurds are Muslims. Sharia Law and all. As per Article 7 of the Constitution of Iraq the state religion is Islam. Sharia Law is one of the basis of the legal system, particularly in the personal area. [/QUOTE] [But northern Iraq isn’t where most of the oil is.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/02/iraq_key_maps/html/oil_fields.stm) And I know they want a part of Iran and Turkey, but right now they don’t even have an independent state, the Kurdish governments are viewing this as first things first. I do agree with you about the destabilizing nature of Kurdish minorities in Iran especially if a viable Kurdish state is ever established. However, perhaps a Kurdistan has become the lesser of two evils. I read now I wasn’t clear enough about the Shariah law comment. Whether or not Islam is the state religion, the level of implementation and interpretation of Shariah law in the Kurdish zone is more ‘liberal’, no? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkeys-ruling-islamist-party-wins-elections-keeps-power/412781/13 "2007-08-02T10:14:05Z")
[QUOTE=Sitnam] [But northern Iraq isn’t where most of the oil is.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/02/iraq_key_maps/html/oil_fields.stm) [/QUOTE] You are simply uninformed. If you don’t know about Kirkuk as a pivotal issue in Iraq maybe you need to do more research. Your own map shows it even. The key thing to look out for now is the November referendum on its status. The Kurds have been happily ethnic cleansing their way to expected victory there and have made it pretty clear them getting Kirkuk is a deal-breaker or maker. Meanwhile, as previously posted, the USA is planning to ‘secretly’ help the Turks kill the PKK leadership, which will further inflame things. The Kurds will be ‘okay’ as you put it, because they will fight for their independence. And they are helped by all the arms and training they receive while they pretend to be part of the Iraq Army. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkeys-ruling-islamist-party-wins-elections-keeps-power/412781/14 "2007-08-02T10:28:42Z")
[QUOTE=Sitnam] Whether or not Islam is the state religion, the level of implementation and interpretation of Shariah law in the Kurdish zone is more ‘liberal’, no? [/QUOTE] Sharia Law is by definition illiberal and oppressive. At its very least harmful it is the thin end of the wedge, foot in the door for increasing oppression. And the Kurds are very big on honour killing. [And Stoning](http://www.kwrw.org/index.asp?id=87) They might not be complete lunatics yet but the Turks won’t just sit and cross their fingers hoping the Kurds play nice. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkeys-ruling-islamist-party-wins-elections-keeps-power/412781/15 "2007-08-03T05:54:03Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] Sharia Law is by definition illiberal and oppressive. At its very least harmful it is the thin end of the wedge, foot in the door for increasing oppression. [/QUOTE] Now you are the one that is misinformed. Sharia law is an ancient code of conduct for societies, it is still open to interpretation. It is the recent illiberal and oppressive regimes that have shaded this code into poor light. Sharia Law, like the Ten Commandments for Christianity, stands at the heart of Islam…are you saying you believe Islam to be illiberal and oppressive? [QUOTE=tagos] They might not be complete lunatics yet but the Turks won’t just sit and cross their fingers hoping the Kurds play nice. [/QUOTE] No, but like I was saying, a viable Kurdistan my be seen by Iran and Turkey as the lesser of two evils. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkeys-ruling-islamist-party-wins-elections-keeps-power/412781/16 "2007-08-03T09:42:10Z")
[QUOTE=Sitnam] Now you are the one that is misinformed. Sharia law is an ancient code of conduct for societies, it is still open to interpretation. It is the recent illiberal and oppressive regimes that have shaded this code into poor light. Sharia Law, like the Ten Commandments for Christianity, stands at the heart of Islam…are you saying you believe Islam to be illiberal and oppressive? No, but like I was saying, a viable Kurdistan my be seen by Iran and Turkey as the lesser of two evils. [/QUOTE] I am not misinformed. Have you read the Koran? Have you seen what happens in countries with Sharia Law components? And yes - Islam is by its current nature illiberal and oppressive. I make that judgment on Islam in action historically and contemporarily - not on whether you can somehow parse the illiberal words of the Koran and the various hadiths different sects use to interpret the guiding life of Mohammed - into something vaguely acceptable to western liberal society. It doesn’t matter, just like with Christianity, what the mumbo jumbo reads like. It’s what it’s like when put into practice. As of this moment ‘liberal’ Islam is no more than people whistling in the dark. As far as I’m concerned there is an absolute and irreconcilable clash between liberalism and any form of ‘because God said so,’ no matter how much people stretch and reinterpret what God supposedly said. Chapter 34 verse 4 - the ‘it’s cool to beat women under these circumstances’ verse is pretty hard to massage away although it’s nice people are trying. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2007, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkeys-ruling-islamist-party-wins-elections-keeps-power/412781/17 "2007-08-03T09:58:24Z")
[QUOTE=Sitnam] No, but like I was saying, a viable Kurdistan my be seen by Iran and Turkey as the lesser of two evils. [/QUOTE] And Santa Claus might exist. I suppose you could spin some implausible scenarios where the Turks might somehow accept a situation the avoidance of which has been central to their foreign and domestic security policies for decades but as things stand anything that smells of a Kurdish homeland is anathema to Turkey. [Turkish policy analysis](http://www.cfr.org/publication/11378/cook.html) > [@](#): > > What are Turkey’s foreign policy interests in Iraq? > > Its primary interest is maintaining the unity of Iraq because they are very concerned about the rise of Kurdish nationalism. If Iraq does slide into civil war, the Kurds will seek their independence. There is reason for the Turks to be concerned because although the Kurdish leadership has essentially to this point played it straight and sought a unified Iraq and sought to work within a federal Iraq, many Kurds want to be independent, and public opinion among the Kurds is certainly in the direction of independence. The practicalities of Kurdish independence for the Kurds are different. I mean, they certainly have oil resources in and around the city of Kirkuk, which is up for a referendum in 2007, but how are they going to get the oil out? They will get it out of the ground, but how do they get it out of there? If the country falls apart, it would be dangerous to send it south. And if they declare their independence, they will have to send it through Turkey. And [Turkey] won’t be too happy about an independent Kurdish state, to put it mildly. > [@](#): > > Are there shared political interests between the Kurds in Turkey and the Kurds in northern Iraq? > > Well, that is the concern of the Turks: that the emergence of an independent Kurdistan in Northern Iraq will both psychologically as well as materially provide support for Kurds inside southeastern Turkey to seek the same. The PKK, although it does not represent all Kurds in Turkey, reports to be a nationalist organization. So you can understand why the Turks are so concerned about the effects of the emergence of an independent Kurdistan in northern Iraq, and what it would mean for their own country. It goes back historically to the post-World War I period when the Allies sought to carve up the remnants of the Ottoman Empire, including the Anatolian Rectangle. They see a Kurdish state in Iraq as a potential prelude to the carving off of portions of the southeast of Turkey where the Kurdish population is concentrated. > [@](#): > > If Iraqi Kurds successfully gain autonomy, how do you think Turkey will respond? > > It depends on what you mean by autonomy—autonomy within a federal, stable Iraq? I think they will look wearily upon it, but there is not probably much at this point they can or would do about it as long as there is no state called Kurdistan or the Independent State of Kurdistan. Those things are anathema to the Turks. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2007, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkeys-ruling-islamist-party-wins-elections-keeps-power/412781/18 "2007-08-04T21:50:11Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] And the Kurds are Muslims. Sharia Law and all. As per Article 7 of the Constitution of Iraq the state religion is Islam. Sharia Law is one of the basis of the legal system, particularly in the personal area. [/QUOTE] The Kurds maybe Muslims but they are not radical Islamists ,when Islamists entered the Kurds homelands before the current trouble to make converts they were booted out or dealt with according to the Kurds Ive spoken to anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2007, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkeys-ruling-islamist-party-wins-elections-keeps-power/412781/19 "2007-08-05T00:06:10Z")
[QUOTE=Lust4Life] The Kurds maybe Muslims but they are not radical Islamists ,when Islamists entered the Kurds homelands before the current trouble to make converts they were booted out or dealt with according to the Kurds Ive spoken to anyway. [/QUOTE] This is not quite accurate. Better to say that Islamism is not a dominant force in most of Kurdistan. The **Islamic Movement of Kurdistan** ( IMK ) got about 5% of the vote in the regional elections in the early nineties ( good enough for a very distant third place ) and is currently a minor participating member of the regional government. And of course the more actively violent offshoot ( in part ) of the IMK is the infamous **Ansar al-Islam** , a vaguely al Qaeda aligned group that sheltered in a couple of Kurdish mountain valleys pre-invasion and was at times put forward as one of the justifications for invading Iraq ( never mind they were well outside SH’s zone of control ). It still appears to be lurking about in shadowy form, either by the original name or as the associated **Ansar al-Sunnah** ( which may be synonomous - these groups subdivide like bacteria and rename themselves just as frequently ). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2007, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkeys-ruling-islamist-party-wins-elections-keeps-power/412781/20 "2007-08-06T00:31:45Z")
[Turkey is giving the Iraqi government one last chance to crush the PKK within its borders before Turkish troops go in.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/05/AR2007080501262.html?hpid=topnews)