# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Camus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ba8739/32.png) [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/341 "2010-06-01T13:55:39Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > I living here knew what was going on and what was likely to happen. > > This just proves my point that outside of the middle east you are simply not being made aware of what is really going on. > > You all should have caught on straight away to my point but you didn’t. > > Shame on you all. Even after Googling you couldn’t even get what my point was. > > How come I knew that this catastrophe was about to happen and you out there had no clue? Shame on you who give opinions who know nothing of the facts. > > As predicted Israel that ‘mad frothing pit bull’ has yet again shown it’s real face. This time however even though 19 have died and 30 have been injured the story is not going to be laid to rest quietly. Don’t get the wind knocked out of you by patting yourself on the back too much. The primary thrust of the debate you wanted to start in the OP dealt with NATO and whether Article 5 applied in a situation like this. Also, you seemed to envisage Israel outright sinking one or all of the ships. As for “knowing the facts,” 9 people died, not 19. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/342 "2010-06-01T13:56:53Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > There is a bit of an excluded middle here. > > **Babale** is saying that the Israelis have not simply cut off the Gazans from power and water. > > It is also true that the Israelis have been restricting, or temporarily cutting, access to electrictity, and that the Gazan water infrastructure is inadequate and cannot be upgraded during the blocade, they dot have access to adequate supplies of chlorine, etc. > > In short, your cites - which (I presume) accurately disclose the suffering undergone by Gazans as a result of the blocade - do not refute his point: if the Israelis wished, they could in fact “really” starve Gaza. They have not. Personally I read a clear implication that the Israelis do not mess with the water and electricity supplies to Gaza. Hence his (paraphrased) “doesn’t it show something that they do not?”. The simple answer to that is, “doesn’t it show something that they do severely limit the supplies and have largely bombed the infrastructure into oblivion. Never mind that the plans to cut the electricity supply was only stopped by the High Court in Israel”. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/343 "2010-06-01T13:58:09Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Now it is time for the International Vet to come and put it down. > > Should have been done 60 years ago. 62 years ago was 1948. Just so we’re clear here, are you suggesting that genocide should have been committed in '48 and that it should be committed now in order to destroy the state of Israel? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/344 "2010-06-01T14:06:18Z")
I think the key here is what was actually on the vessels. The practice of barring the transportation of building supplies is abhorrent to me, and frankly gave the flotilla a perfect excuse _not_ to submit to Israeli customs searches. > [@spark240](#): > > And. it turns out, neither Israel nor Palestine is a signatory to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, so there _is no_ internationally-recognized maritime territoriality here, for either side. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Eh… the US didn’t ratify the convention, we have territorial waters. The UNCLSO is less of a proper international treaty and more of a codification of international norms. Nations can claim 12 miles of territorial waters (or more, in fact) regardless of whether they’re signatories. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/345 "2010-06-01T14:08:05Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > There are certain arguments that are not supposed to be engaged. And I would put this whole brouhaha over “flattening” in that category. It is a hijack and you and the Captain will both stop posting about it in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/346 "2010-06-01T14:10:18Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Care to point me to where? I just quoted some of it, again, in the post you just responded to. > [@amanset](#): > > Are you seriously saying that “adequate” food is simply “enough so they don’t die of starvation”? [1 : sufficient for a specific requirement \; also : barely sufficient or satisfactory \](http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/adequate) The metric is providing enough food for a populace, if you’d like to use another word than “adequate”, you’re certainly welcome to. But you can’t use “adequate” to mean “more than adequate”. > [@amanset](#): > > I’m going to go out on a limb and say the bombing of the Gaza Strip back to the stone age in 2008 didn’t exactly help the water and power infrastructure. No doubt you will disagree. The balance between security and consignments has already been cited and elaborated upon. > [@amanset](#): > > No doubt, as the occupying power, Israel has rebuilt the water and power infrastructure? Then they wouldn’t need to give anyone metal pipes. Rather obviously Israel can’t go into Gaza until it’s via an armed incursion, and equally obviously people can take metal pipes even if someone else screws them in. > [@amanset](#): > > Regarding “death rates” (as again, apparently “not dying” is adequate), I don’t know. I’m not quite sure why it is me that should be searching for this stuff. Because it’s you making the claim. > [@amanset](#): > > [http://www.unicef.org/emerg/oPt\_48275.html](http://www.unicef.org/emerg/oPt_48275.html) Again, an occupying power has the responsibility for maintaining certain things with the cooperation of the occupied power. Hamas can not be trusted to cooperate. Therefore… ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/347 "2010-06-01T14:12:51Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > you and the Captain will both stop posting about it in this thread. Not a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/348 "2010-06-01T14:14:44Z")
Did any of you see the Turkish reporter hold the assassination list up to the camera before the satellite was cut on board the Mavi Marmara? Why has this not been discussed in the threads. I don’t even think you know about this either? He was reporting to the camera live that the list had fallen from one of the commando’s. He held it up to cameras with the names and photos of those on board who were to be assassinated. Obviously all of the reporters on board’s tapes have been confiscated but it went out live beforehand. Armed commando’s dropping out of helicopters were obviously not dropping in for tea. They had a mission. Be interesting to see the names of the dead and if they match with the list. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/349 "2010-06-01T14:17:06Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > IIsrael is a pull bull which has been rampaging for years with the full authority and backing of the USA. Now it is time for the International Vet to come and put it down. > > Should have been done 60 years ago. > > Israel is finished. > [@Magiver](#): > > The world isn’t surprised that a bunch of Muslims acted like howler monkeys and attacked Israeli Soldiers. It was a given. This sort of inflammatory language is not, strictly, against the rules, but in the context of an emotional thread, it does nothing to promote the discuission. **FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS THREAD, ANY FURTHER INFLAMMATORY REMARKS WILL BE WARNED.** In addition, if this keeps up, we may move to issuing Warnings for snide comments and snark. This is too important an issue to continue with the stupids cheap shots and \*\*BBQ Pit \*\*language. If you need rant, take it to the **BBQ Pit**. **[/Moderating]** ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/350 "2010-06-01T14:17:10Z")
[Families of those attacked on Turkish aid ship devastated](http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=families-of-those-attacked-on-the-ship-shocked-and-devastated-2010-05-31) [Protests in front of Israeli consulate in Istanbul last until midnight](http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=protests-in-front-of-israeli-consulate-in-istanbul-last-until-midnight-2010-06-01) [Turkish PM Erdoğan says Israel ‘must be punished’ for raid on Gaza aid ship](http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=erdogan-speaks-2010-06-01) ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/351 "2010-06-01T14:18:01Z")
Hozni Mubarak has just announced that Rafah crossing will be opened immediately and will not be closed again. All humanitarian aid and help to be given to Gazans immediately. Arab Press. This is ahead of the Arab League meeting later today. Good on you Hosni!!!🆒 Italy is sending two aid ships now to Gaza and Israel is threatening it as we speak. Egyptians overjoyed ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/352 "2010-06-01T14:20:46Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Did any of you see the Turkish reporter hold the assassination list up to the camera before the satellite was cut on board the Mavi Marmara? We’re well into a realm of a Conspiracy Theory now. IDF commandos dropped onto the ships carrying pieces of paper with assassination targets on them. Seriously. They weren’t asked to memorize anybody’s face before hand, they were told to go onto the ship and then start consulting kill cards. And those people just happened to be among those who attacked the commandos with lethal force when they boarded the ship, what luck! Rather obviously the purpose of their boarding action was to enforce the blockade. The CT that they were there to carry out targeted killings is odd. But it is disturbing how quickly some CT’s spread in certain media pools. > [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Hozni Mubarak has just announced that Rafah crossing will be opened immediately and will not be closed again. > All humanitarian aid and help to be given to Gazans immediately. Interestingly enough the fact is that Egypt could have opened the Rafah crossing whenever they wanted and yet all your blame is on Israel. Of course, yet more nations attempting to violate a valid military blockade is not a good thing, and people who desire peace do not wish such things. Let’s hope that cooler heads prevail and we’re not going to see a war because some nations simply had to violate a blockade of a genocidal, rejectionist terror organization. Bad times. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/353 "2010-06-01T14:23:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think the key here is what was actually on the vessels. The practice of barring the transportation of building supplies is abhorrent to me, and frankly gave the flotilla a perfect excuse _not_ to submit to Israeli customs searches. > The UNCLSO is less of a proper international treaty and more of a codification of international norms. Nations can claim 12 miles of territorial waters (or more, in fact) regardless of whether they’re signatories. This is a topic of interest to me. Quite aside from the partisan sniping back-and-forth - what, exactly, is the “legal” situation under international law concering interception of blocade-runners in international waters? So far, I’ve seen & quoted the restatement of the laws of the sea that appears to me at least to state that such interception is legal. The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea appears to state the opposite, but Israel is not a signatory. OTOH, it may be the case that it is a mere codification of customary international law. OTOH, the restatement also appears to be a codification of customary international law … In short, is there any support (assuming purely for the purpose of this exercise that the blocade is fully “legal”) for the oft-stated proposition that the Israeli boarding is “illegal”? ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/354 "2010-06-01T14:24:07Z")
> **[Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos](https://www.yahoo.com/)** > > Latest news coverage, email, free stock quotes, live scores and video are just the beginning. Discover more every day at Yahoo! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/355 "2010-06-01T14:25:36Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > [Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos](http://news.maktoob.com/article/3999936) I’m sure we have some other Arabic speakers here, but this is not useful for most of the people you’re trying to communicate with. In reference to your earlier posts, some of Erdogan’s comments are being included in the front-page news stories on the raid. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/356 "2010-06-01T14:32:36Z")
Egypt the US’s biggest ally apart from Saudi sides with Turkey. Let’s see what Saudi’s do in the Arab League. Obama make your choice… Israel your ‘special friend’ or the rest of the civilized world. The choice is your Mr President. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/357 "2010-06-01T14:33:43Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I just quoted some of it, again, in the post you just responded to. Oh THAT. That’s the defence? That could, dubiously, be applied to the flotilla but not to the masses of Aid that Israel refuses to let through the borders (both that they control and via pressure on Egypt). > [@FinnAgain](#): > > [1 : sufficient for a specific requirement \; also : barely sufficient or satisfactory \](http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/adequate) > The metric is providing enough food for a populace, if you’d like to use another word than “adequate”, you’re certainly welcome to. But you can’t use “adequate” to mean “more than adequate”. So, in your opinion, adequate food supply is “enough to make sure they don’t die”? Note that your own definition calls for a “specific requirement”. You seem to think that should be “not die”. Why do you choose that instead of, say, “maintain a functionally nutritious or balanced diet”? > [@FinnAgain](#): > > The balance between security and consignments has already been cited and elaborated upon. Yes, we are well aware of the danger of coriander, jam, chocolate and fruit juice, amongst other things. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Rather obviously Israel can’t go into Gaza until it’s via an armed incursion, and equally obviously people can take metal pipes even if someone else screws them in. Rather obviously they shouldn’t have bombed the fuck out of it then. The way it stands now: Israel destroyed it, Israel won’t go in and fix it and, best of all, Israel is denying the Palestinians the materials to fix it themselves. Oh - and Israel won’t let the people out of there. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Because it’s you making the claim. I’m claiming that water, hygiene and power have been severely affected. I offered cites from well known news sources and humanitarian agencies. You took my claims and decided that it meant something else and demanded cites for that. You’re big on pointing out when others use logical fallacies. Hows about you remind us of which one you used there? > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Again, an occupying power has the responsibility for maintaining certain things with the cooperation of the occupied power. Hamas can not be trusted to cooperate. Therefore… Again, is Israel an Occupying Power? Apparently, according to you, if an Israeli politician says they are not I am not supposed to believe them. Do you have any cites of Israel admitting they are an Occupying Power? I mean, I’ve asked several times in this thread whether they are or not. If Israel does not see themselves as the Occupying Power they can hardly use the rules regarding occupying powers to explain a blockade, can they? ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/358 "2010-06-01T14:35:25Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m sure we have some other Arabic speakers here, but this is not useful for most of the people you’re trying to communicate with. In reference to your earlier posts, some of Erdogan’s comments are being included in the front-page news stories on the raid. That is the link to the Egyptian press about Rafah, and the Italian aid convoy is also there. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/359 "2010-06-01T14:36:07Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Egypt the US’s biggest ally apart from Saudi sides with Turkey. I’m assuming you mean ‘in the Middle East.’ ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/360 "2010-06-01T14:38:16Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Egypt the US’s biggest ally apart from Saudi sides with Turkey. > > Let’s see what Saudi’s do in the Arab League. > > Obama > > make your choice… > Israel your ‘special friend’ or the rest of the civilized world. The choice is your Mr President. Why can’t it be both? **Atrocities are committed by all three sides** : America, Muslim nations and Israel! I’ll ask again: what did the Freedom Flotilla people expect? They announced their intentions beforehand, Israel stated in response that it would stop these vessels. The Freedom Flotilla proceeded with their operation, and the Israelis responded like they said they would! What did they hope to accomplish, other than bringing a shitstorm down upon not only themselves, but condemnation of Israel by Arab nations (again and again and again…)??? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=19)