# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/361 "2010-06-01T14:41:50Z")
Well, they _might_ have expected to deliver humanitarian aid supplies to Gaza. Just saying. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/362 "2010-06-01T14:43:17Z")
Mr Obama. You are the facilitator of the Zionist regime. You are supporting killers. It’s a bit like you are the drug dealer and Israel the drug user. You are hooking up Israel with it’s next fix then sitting up late at night listening to it’s woes. The American people are facilitators too. You are supporting a clearly insane junkie. You are feeding it’s habit. Time to wake up America. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/363 "2010-06-01T14:44:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m assuming you mean ‘in the Middle East.’ of course do you think I meant Tony Blair or Gordon Brown. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/364 "2010-06-01T14:45:14Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Oh THAT. That’s the defence? That could, dubiously, be applied to the flotilla but not to the masses of Aid that Israel refuses to let through the borders We’ve already discussed this. Please click on the links for the 4th GC where it talks about, among other things, economic advantage. There is arable land in Gaza. > [@amanset](#): > > Rather obviously they shouldn’t have bombed the fuck out of it then. The way it stands now: Israel destroyed it, Israel won’t go in and fix it and, best of all, Israel is denying the Palestinians the materials to fix it themselves. Oh - and Israel won’t let the people out of there. The claim that Israel should not have responded to rocket fire with a military operation is hardly “obvious”, although it is a repeated claim. As for not allowing metal that can be used for rockets and the explicit 4th GC rules on internment, I’m not sure what your point is. And again you are voicing the same strange argument that ignores that Egypt can open Rafah any time it wants and let anybody cross its border that it wants. > [@amanset](#): > > You’re big on pointing out when others use logical fallacies. Hows about you remind us of which one you used there? If you can’t even claim a specific logical fallacy, largely because there isn’t one, I’m not sure what you intend me to do about it. I’ve pointed out to you, and Malthus has pointed out to you that the point is not that hardship is being inflicted, which has already been agreed to and while I’m not sure if Malthus has said anything specific, I’ve already said that the blockade should be loosened. As pointed out numerous times, there are specific qualifications for making a blockade illegal though, if you weren’t addressing them then you were just citing “these things are bad”, which is a non sequitor. > [@amanset](#): > > Again, is Israel an Occupying Power? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/365 "2010-06-01T14:47:51Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Mr Obama. > > You are the facilitator of the Zionist regime. You are supporting killers. Meanwhile he’s been getting flack for months for allegedly giving Israel the cold shoulder. I guess that sums up this situation pretty well - and so does a lethal raid on an aid convoy. Both sides demand total support for their actions no matter how demonstrably inhumane they are. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/366 "2010-06-01T14:48:42Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I don’t know. I think the sight of U.S warships escorting feighters filled with coriander, washing machines and construction materials blissfully past Israeli defenses will do wonders for America’s reputation. Then, indeed, it wouldn’t implement Israeli policies (not importing washing machines or coriander). But even assuming that the USA (or whoever else) would be willing to take charge of some kind of partial embargo, do you think that the concept of a foreign country regulating this would fly in Israel? (or for that matter in Palestine/Gaza?) > [@](#): > > After all, it’s not as if the U.S. doesn’t already consider Hamas a terrorist organization - this way it can portray itself as Gaza’s savior in spite of both Hamas and Israel. In spite of Israel? Do you mean something like Obama stating “From now on, we’re taking Gaza’s issue in our own hands, and we don’t care what Israel think of it”? I don’t see that flying, either. > [@](#): > > I think the bottom line is that Israel has to cut its losses and compromise. If the Palestinians would be willing to compromise in return, then maybe we could make some progress here. I object to the word “Palestinians” here. It seems to me that at the moment the Palestinian government appears to be more willing to compromise than Netanyaou’s government (although with this event, “compromise” will become a concept even harder to sell in Palestine, I guess, except if perceived there as just another drop in the bucket, contrarily to the current worldwide perception of it being a major event). And as for the Hamas compromising, I don’t see this coming anytime soon. Not to compromise is their “raison d’etre”, after all. And they just marked big PR points yesterday. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/367 "2010-06-01T14:52:33Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > That is the link to the Egyptian press about Rafah, and the Italian aid convoy is also there. Which is irrelevant if your audience does not read the language in which it is written. Al Jazeera, Al Arabiyah, and several other Middle Eastern news outlets have English language editions. Stick to those if you want to make your point about news from a Mid-East perspective. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7697021#post7697021](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7697021#post7697021) ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/368 "2010-06-01T14:54:35Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Did any of you see the Turkish reporter hold the assassination list up to the camera before the satellite was cut on board the Mavi Marmara? > > Why has this not been discussed in the threads. I don’t even think you know about this either? No. Links? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/369 "2010-06-01T14:58:29Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > This sort of inflammatory language is not, strictly, against the rules, but in the context of an emotional thread, it does nothing to promote the discuission. > > **FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS THREAD, ANY FURTHER INFLAMMATORY REMARKS WILL BE WARNED.** In addition, if this keeps up, we may move to issuing Warnings for snide comments and snark. > > This is too important an issue to continue with the stupids cheap shots and \*\*BBQ Pit \*\*language. > > If you need rant, take it to the **BBQ Pit**. > > **[/Moderating]** > [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > You are the facilitator of the Zionist regime. You are supporting killers. > > It’s a bit like you are the drug dealer and Israel the drug user. > > You are hooking up Israel with it’s next fix then sitting up late at night listening to it’s woes. > > The American people are facilitators too. > > You are supporting a clearly insane junkie. You are feeding it’s habit. My comment applied to you as much as any other poster. This is a Warning to stop this manner of expressing yourself. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/370 "2010-06-01T14:58:52Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, they _might_ have expected to deliver humanitarian aid supplies to Gaza. Just saying. Yes, but its akin to the State Department issuing a travel advisory/warning to a known terrorist country, some Americans travel there anyway, get kidnapped and then beg for US intervention on their behalf. The Israeli government flatly stated that they would use preventative action up to and including military force to stop this flotilla from attempting to circumvent its blockade…why is anyone surprised that they did exactly what they said they’d do? If the USA was blockading a country and say, Sweden decided they were going to round up a humanitarian aid fleet and announced their intention to try to run through the blockade, and the US Navy told them that they would be engaged as military targets if they did so, and then proceeded to sink one of their ships, killing all aboard, would that be any different? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/371 "2010-06-01T15:03:49Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Hozni Mubarak has just announced that Rafah crossing will be opened immediately and will not be closed again. > All humanitarian aid and help to be given to Gazans immediately. > Arab Press. > […] > > Good on you Hosni!!!🆒 > Egyptians overjoyed I don’t doubt Egyptians are overjoyed, but cheering Mubarak for that is a bit over the top. After all, _he_ decided to blockade in the first place. I guess he just couldn’t support this policy any more. I count this as a major failure of his political stance rather than a decision worth of applause. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/372 "2010-06-01T15:04:51Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > We’ve already discussed this. Please click on the links for the 4th GC where it talks about, among other things, economic advantage. There is arable land in Gaza. So about that chocolate, jam, fruit juice and coriander… You don’t think they might want to use that arable land to grow food? You know, to eat? Seeing as you seem to think that an “adequate food supply” is one that doesn’t starve you to death… > [@FinnAgain](#): > > The claim that Israel should not have responded to rocket fire with a military operation is hardly “obvious”, although it is a repeated claim. As for not allowing metal that can be used for rockets and the explicit 4th GC rules on internment, I’m not sure what your point is. And again you are voicing the same strange argument that ignores that Egypt can open Rafah any time it wants and let anybody cross its border that it wants. Approximately 24 hours ago I posted this in this very thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12517719&postcount=135](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12517719&postcount=135) > [@](#): > > Which is, of course, the basics of the problem. Much like Northern Ireland, the Middle East has gone on so long it doesn’t matter IMHO who, in the midst of time, “fired the first shot”. The fight is older than those fighting. Palestinians fire rockets because the Israelis bomb them. But the Israelis bomb them because Palestinians fire rockets. Both sides have got to sit down and talk without preconditions. As soon as someone says “we’ll talk once you stop attacking us” then you may as well give up as both sides see themselves as defending themselves. > > Yes there have been ceasefires, but also both sides have broken ceasefires. It takes more than a ceasefire to stop what’s going on and on that count both sides have come up short At the time it seemed almost too simplistic. Almost immature. But on reflection, after reading what you have written, I now think it was very much on the money. Regarding Rafah, I did mention that. Or at least I did in a post somewhere on this page. Israel puts pressure on Egypt not to open it. Israel makes demands. Israel and Egypt have gone to war over this region. Israel would probably go apeshit if Egypt opened it up fully, which if they have indeed just done could be worryingly interesting. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > If you can’t even claim a specific logical fallacy, largely because there isn’t one, I’m not sure what you intend me to do about it. I’ve pointed out to you, and Malthus has pointed out to you that the point is not that hardship is being inflicted, which has already been agreed to and while I’m not sure if Malthus has said anything specific, I’ve already said that the blockade should be loosened. I’m not making a specific claim, because that’s for pedants and mentalists. If you can’t see that “person 1 claims A; person 2 claims A actually means B; person 2 demands cite for B” is a screwed up method of arguing then there really is no hope. Because, and here’s the big secret, _I don’t agree that A means B._ So why should I provides cites for B? > [@FinnAgain](#): > > As pointed out numerous times, there are specific qualifications for making a blockade illegal though, if you weren’t addressing them then you were just citing “these things are bad”, which is a non sequitor. Well, as I have said, I don’t remember making any claims about it being illegal. I’m of the opinion that the blockade is mental and morally bankrupt. Anyway, I’m lost here, are you saying that me writing about Israel limiting the supply of and destroying the infrastructure of water and electricity is a non sequitor or that the blocking of certain foodstuffs for no reason whatsoever is? Because the first I wrote about as someone, in my opinion, implied that Israel does not affect them and the second was, IIRC, in response to someone saying that the blockade was to stop weapons, which those foodstuffs clearly aren’t. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yes. In your opinion or has Israel stated this? Because if they have there’s a Wikipedia entry that really needs updating. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/373 "2010-06-01T15:11:22Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The thing is, now that Israeli soldiers have been hurt, the next time they won’t bother boarding the ships. They’ll just do things the old-fashioned way - a shot over the bow, followed by an ultimatum. Yes, because that would be sooo much better. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/374 "2010-06-01T15:12:14Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Yes, but its akin to the State Department issuing a travel advisory/warning to a known terrorist country, some Americans travel there anyway, get kidnapped and then beg for US intervention on their behalf. It’s not akin to that at all. Bringing supplies to starving people is, in fact, completely unlike going for a hike in a dangerous area. > [@](#): > > If the USA was blockading a country and say, Sweden decided they were going to round up a humanitarian aid fleet and announced their intention to try to run through the blockade, and the US Navy told them that they would be engaged as military targets if they did so, and then proceeded to sink one of their ships, killing all aboard, would that be any different? That’s not what happened here - though for the record, I would be screaming about your hypothetical US Navy action, too. Turkey said it would send boats. The IDF said they’d stop and inspect the boats. The inspection resulted in 30-odd casualties. The only question is whether the Israeli forces attacked the activists, or vice versa; I don’t know, and I’m not going to make up my mind on the basis of some grainy cellphone video and this **Marmite** guy screaming about “assassination lists”. What I _do_ know is that it is totally unreasonable for Israel to expect that the ships would sail to an Israeli port for inspection when everyone already knew they were carrying inexplicably embargoed building supplies. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/375 "2010-06-01T15:13:22Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > All in all, Israel’s chosen action was the least of all possible evils. This seems to be the justification for a lot of the crappy stuff Israel does. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/376 "2010-06-01T15:20:09Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s not akin to that at all. Bringing supplies to starving people is, in fact, completely unlike going for a hike in a dangerous area. > > That’s not what happened here - though for the record, I would be screaming about your hypothetical US Navy action, too. > > Turkey said it would send boats. The IDF said they’d stop and inspect the boats. The inspection resulted in 30-odd casualties. The only question is whether the Israeli forces attacked the activists, or vice versa; I don’t know, and I’m not going to make up my mind on the basis of some grainy cellphone video and this **Marmite** guy screaming about “assassination lists”. > > What I _do_ know is that it is totally unreasonable for Israel to expect that the ships would sail to an Israeli port for inspection when everyone already knew they were carrying inexplicably embargoed building supplies. Its only akin to that in the sense that they were warned beforehand of the consequences of their actions if they proceeded with their attempt to break the blockade and then they tried to do it anyway. And why is it unreasonable for Israel to demand that ships dock in their port so that they can inspect the ships to be certain that what they are carrying is indeed humanitarian aid supplies and not weapons? Ashdod isn’t that far away. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/377 "2010-06-01T15:26:51Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > If people were coming after armed soldiers with knives and crowbars, then that damn well does justify life ammunition. I think I saw a Battlestar Galactica episode that revolved around an event like this. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/378 "2010-06-01T15:28:47Z")
[Israel Foreign Ministry on Gaza Occupation](http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Reference+Documents/Disengagement+Plan+-+General+Outline.htm) > [@](#): > > 1. Main elements > > i. Gaza Strip: > > 1. Israel will evacuate the Gaza Strip, including all existing Israeli towns and villages, and will redeploy outside the Strip. This will not include military deployment in the area of the border between the Gaza Strip and Egypt (“the Philadelphi Route”) as detailed below. > 2. Upon completion of this process, there shall no longer be any permanent presence of Israeli security forces or Israeli civilians in the areas of Gaza Strip territory which have been evacuated. > 3. As a result, there will be no basis for claiming that the Gaza Strip is occupied territory. So no - and this is actually common knowledge - Israel does not see itself as the Occupying Power. But they are in the eyes of the international community. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/379 "2010-06-01T15:29:31Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > But if the soldiers had come with the intention of firing live ammunition, why even get off the helicopter? Just fire away from above, well out of knife range. The fact that they exposed themselves to danger proves that they weren’t there for a gunfight. Its hard to commandeer a ship without setting foot on it. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/380 "2010-06-01T15:29:37Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > So about that chocolate, jam, fruit juice and coriander… I have said, several times, including at least once to you, that I believe that the blockade should be relaxed. And I have also pointed out that it also does not appear to be an illegal blockade and that the two issues should not be conflated. > [@amanset](#): > > You don’t think they might want to use that arable land to grow food? You know, to eat? _Of course they would, that’s the point_. Read the 4th GC where it talks about how an occupying power can have the right to deny consignments to an enemy if doing so would have a detrimental effect on the enemy’s economy and the enemy can be forced to devote its resources to producing those consignments rather than aiding the enemy forces. > [@amanset](#): > > Israel puts pressure on Egypt not to open it. And yet Egypt has opened it in the past and Israel has done nothing. Egypt, in point of fact, has its own policies. Sometimes this is demonstrated quite graphically. > [@amanset](#): > > Because the first I wrote about as someone, in my opinion, implied that Israel does not affect them No, nobody implied that Israel does not effect them. Someone correctly stated that if the goal was starvation Israel could have already accomplished it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=20)