# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/21 "2010-05-31T09:45:05Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > Or Israel could of shown a bit more subtlety and common sense, sent out some customs guys to check the ships in non-international waters (say, much closer to Gaza) instead of ordering them to go through the usual frogwalking at Ashdod, then either said “hah hah, we found contraband aboard instead of legitimate humanitarian aid” or “hey, we declare you to be not in violation of this blockade, go on through”, which would presumably undercut the idea that there was a total and illogical blockade going on. > > But, instead, they used a bunch of commandos and things immediately went poorly for all involved. Did the flotilla organizers make that suggestion? Would they have allowed Israeli customs agents onboard? Could they have guaranteed their safety? I doubt it. The whole point of this affair was to cause an international incident. The organizers would never have cooperated with Israel on anything - otherwise, they would have accepted the Israeli offer to land at Ashdod and transport the cargo to Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/22 "2010-05-31T09:48:11Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Did the flotilla operators make that suggestion? Would they have allowed Israeli customs agents onboard? Could they have guaranteed their safety? > > I doubt it. The whole point of this affair was to cause an international incident. Something your government happily played right into, is my point. Look, I’m not a raving “death to Israel” sort of person, I just think they displayed some astoundingly bad judgement on this occasion. It reminds me quite a bit of [the SS _Exodus_ incident](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Exodus), honestly. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/23 "2010-05-31T09:49:25Z")
The thing is, now that Israeli soldiers have been hurt, the next time they won’t bother boarding the ships. They’ll just do things the old-fashioned way - a shot over the bow, followed by an ultimatum. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/24 "2010-05-31T09:52:26Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > Something your government happily played right into, is my point. Look, I’m not a raving “death to Israel” sort of person, I just think they displayed some astoundingly bad judgement on this occasion. It reminds me quite a bit of [the SS _Exodus_ incident](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Exodus), honestly. Oh, the organizers did a brilliant job, I’ll give them that. But it was a lose-lose situation on Israel’s behalf. If they had just let them through the Arabs would have won just as big a victory - only then they might also have missiles. All in all, Israel’s chosen action was the least of all possible evils. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/25 "2010-05-31T09:55:52Z")
I’m not really sure I’d count ten or more dead civilians as “the least of all evils” unless you’re presuming them guilty of funnelling weapons and contraband into Gaza without any more evidence than a PR spin-cycle statement from the Israeli government (probably as biased a source as the people on the boats). Even accepting the blockade (which I don’t, and I’m a naval historian writing a Ph.D that involves a historical plan of blockade tactics) I can’t see how these ships could justify a response involving live ammunition. ---
**Author:** ![Mogle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mogle/32/12021_2.png) [@Mogle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mogle)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/26 "2010-05-31T10:01:27Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The ships are currently undergoing screening by Israeli customs opfficials at Ashdod port (custom officials don’t usually work in the middle of the sea). Any legitimate humanitarian cargo will be sent to Gaza. I’m curious, what is “legitimate humanitarian cargo” exactly, according to **Lantern** ’s link what Israel does and does not allow into Gaza appear to be somewhat arbitrary. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/27 "2010-05-31T10:04:52Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > All in all, Israel’s chosen action was the least of all possible evils. Hell yeah, so far only 19 dead being reported. It’s amazingly good by Isreali standards when dealing with non-Israelis. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/28 "2010-05-31T10:06:12Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > I can’t see how these ships could justify a response involving live ammunition. Like the state of Israel has ever given a fuck. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/29 "2010-05-31T10:06:45Z")
Since there’s been precious little actual citations happening in here (something which I fully admit being partly responsible for), here’s a detached but excellent analysis from Haaretz: > [@](#): > > ``` > **ANALYSIS / After Monday's ocean bloodbath, Israel must work fast to prevent third intifada** > > ``` > > **If rumors are confirmed that Muslim leader Raed Salah is among casualties of Israel’s raid on a Gaza aid convoy, the country’s Arab population could explode.** > By [Amos Harel](http://www.haaretz.com/misc/writers/amos-harel-1.285) > > ``` > Some initial reactions to Monday's mid-ocean bloodbath. > > ``` > > \*\*1. Assessing the damage: \*\*The exact casualty toll during Israel’s interception of the aid convoy bound for Gaza is still unclear. Israel has yet to release official and detailed reports, but it is known that several IDF commandos were wounded. Unofficial reports from outside Israel put the death toll at between 14 and 20, with dozens hurt. The nationalities of the casualties are not known. But there is a strong possibility that Israeli Arab leaders, including Raed Salah, head of the Islamic Movement’s northern branch, is among them. > The damage that Israel has caused itself internationally can hardly be exaggerated. A previous crisis with Turkey that erupted earlier this year after Israel humiliated Ankara’s ambassador now looks like small change in comparison. > Even before then, relations with Turkey had deteriorated over Israel’s Operation Cast Lead in Gaza and the generally anti-Israeli stance taken by Turkey’s moderately Islamist government. The new crisis is likely to lead to a total break in ties. > The response from the European Union, whose citizens made up a large portion of the convoy’s passenger list, appears to be little softer. Israel will present its case, show footage to prove that activists attacked its commandos with iron bars and knives - but all that will have little effect on the end result. The world will judge the incident as an excessive use of force with no clear justification. > Monday’s events will also have consequences for the government’s relationship with the Palestinians, and with the country’s own Arab minority. Hamas will try to fan the flames to divert the debate away from the trap into which it has led the citizens of blockaded Gaza. It is not unlikely that there will be an escalation on Israel’s Gaza border, as well as violent protests in the West Bank. > But the central story here is Israel’s Arabs. If Salah is indeed among the casualties, the result could be a wave of riots led by Islamic Movement activists. Targeted provocations by Islamists and left-wing activists will now take on strategic significance. Under certain circumstances, and if both sides fail to take steps to calm the situation, this could even end in a third intifada, or Palestinian uprising. > > **2. The commandos are not to blame:** There is no reason to level accusations at the troops themselves. A severely outnumbered commando lowered at the end of a rope onto the deck of a ship from a helicopter to finds himself attacked with knives has no option but to defend himself from what could be a lynch mob. If - despite all the briefings prior to the operation on the use of proportionate force - he opened fire, it is a fair indication that he had no other course of action. > But this shouldn’t eclipse the point that the operation as a whole was a total failure. It failed to meet it declared goals - taking control of the convoy while minimizing the international fallout. > There are several elements that will need investigation: > Preparations for the operation - it seems the IDF had not anticipated the level of resistance it encountered; might it not perhaps have been preferable to go in with a larger force, rather than relying on small teams dropped from helicopters? > The use of intelligence: What did the army know in advance about weapons - clubs, knives or guns - held by the activists? What was the level of visual coverage of the ship during the operation? > In the next few days we will hear Israeli spokespeople bend over backwards to convince us that the navy had no choice, that the other side was to blame. Anyone who attacks a soldier with a knife can hardly be surprised to meet with a violent response - but Israel needs to examine its actions. “Don’t fool yourselves,” said one experienced army man on Monday morning. “When the spin dies down, we will have to take a deep look at the way the IDF operates. You can be sure that this sort of incident will be handled very differently in the future.” > > **3. The heart of the matter - political decision-making:** There will be a need for a detailed investigation into the all the decisions, by political and defense figures at every level, that led to Monday’s incident. Starting with the decision by the previous government, under Ehud Olmert, to impose a failed blockade on Gaza (although that administration on one occasion did allow a protest boat through), through to the Netanyahu government’s decision to enforce the siege with its raid on the “Freedom Flotilla,” and including the involvement of politicians in planning the interception. In view of the long-term consequences, particularly on an international level, it seems there will be no alternative but to appoint an independent committee of inquiry. If in the next few hours we begin to hear conflicting versions of events beyond the official line that the government has so far sold to the media, we will have the best possible indication that politicians understand this. > > **4. PR failure:** Israel knew in advance that it was headed for confrontation, both at sea and in the media. Pictures of armed commandos taking on protesters never play well internationally. The government formed a dual strategy: Jamming broadcast signals from the boats themselves and allowing select pool of local and international journalists, allowed to travel aboard one of the navy’s missile boats on condition they did not transmit any footage before returning to shore. Even their cellular phones were confiscated. > The interim result, as of mid-morning Monday: Decisive victory for the Turks. The blackout did not work fully, with the result that bloody images were beamed across the world - no matter that they were only blurry footage from a mobile phone camera. > On the Israeli side, there silence. Israeli writers aboard the navy boat are forbidden by the censor from reporting and as yet we haven’t heard a thing from them. At around 10:00 A.M. the army spokesman made a preliminary broadcast. But the electronic media abhor a vacuum: If Israel does not move to fill it, the other side certainly will. Link: [MESS Report After Monday's Ocean Bloodbath, Israel Must Work Fast to Prevent Third Intifada - Haaretz Com](http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/analysis-after-monday-s-ocean-bloodbath-israel-must-work-fast-to-prevent-third-intifada-1.293203) ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/30 "2010-05-31T10:15:30Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I see no reason to disbelieve Israeli reports. Luckily most people in the rest of the world aren’t so quick to forget or ignore the clear lies told by the Israeli forces. White phosphorous in Gaza, anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/31 "2010-05-31T10:16:52Z")
Based on nothing but guesses coming out of my ass, I’m going to assume that what happened was the result of the Law of Unintended Consequences. I don’t think the organizers wanted a lot of dead people resulting from the clash. I think they wanted a lot of photogenic bruises and a few super-photogenic broken bones and documented altercations. I **know** for a fact that we (the Israelis) wanted the whole incident to be concluded with as little damage as possible, because every bruise, every filmed altercation, every broken bone is a PR win for Hamas. The deaths are a PR heaven for them – and yes, they are that cynical about it. As to the ideas of customs officials checking the ships – as Alessan pointed out already, if the ships would have consented to being searched, or to landing at Ashdod, that’s what would have happened. The bare truth is that the organizers of the flotilla **did not care an iota** for getting the humanitarian aid into Gaza. The **sole** purpose of this whole event was a PR win. Which they got, and at a terrible cost – which I will reiterate I’m sure neither side anticipated nor wanted. Sort of like happens sometimes in Urban Riots – events get out of hand, and neither the organizers nor the authorities attempting to control the events can control the outcome; and tragic deaths ensue. Or, to summarize a possibly over-long post – what happened was, I think, a monumental clusterfuck, that **neither side** envisioned, nor wanted, nor could, ultimately, control. On preview – I agree with the lion’s share of the Ha’Aretz analysis (and I see that they make quite a few points that are similar to mine.) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/32 "2010-05-31T10:21:21Z")
Yeah, I don’t always agree with Harel - his politics are a bit to the left of mine - but he makes some good points. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/33 "2010-05-31T10:26:28Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > Even accepting the blockade (which I don’t, and I’m a naval historian writing a Ph.D that involves a historical plan of blockade tactics) I can’t see how these ships could justify a response involving live ammunition. If people were coming after armed soldiers with knives and crowbars, then that damn well does justify life ammunition. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/34 "2010-05-31T10:28:08Z")
I think the idea that the flotilla organisers actively didn’t care about whether they got supplies through to Gaza is ridiculous, honestly. I’m sure they had a reasonable doubt whether they would succeed, but I don’t think the fact that they expected and prepared for a major incident is evidence they were at all insincere in their desire to run the blockade. Moreover, dismissing the idea that some less overtly threatening efforts by Israel to stop and inspect the ships (without diverting them so far away from the Gaza coastline) would’ve failed misses the point that, from the point of avoiding negative publicity, it still would have been a very good idea to try them because it would give evidence of the flotilla having at least some less-than-noble motives. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/35 "2010-05-31T10:28:56Z")
What knives are those? I see none in the videos. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/36 "2010-05-31T10:30:53Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > If people were coming after armed soldiers with knives and crowbars, then that damn well does justify life ammunition. Generally, I’d sort of agree. But there’s a major caveat since there’s not much proof at all that this is, in fact, what happened apart from a government flak-catcher’s statement. This is also the first I’ve heard of knives and crowbars being used. In fact, all I’ve heard and seen from the video filmed on the boat are some sticks. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/37 "2010-05-31T10:59:42Z")
I’ll get you some video proof when some comes up. Till then, Israeli media is reporting 10 wounded soldiers, two of them seriously, from blunt trauma to the head and stabbing wounds. There are also some rumours of troops wounded from gunfire, but they haven’t been confirmed yet. I know for a fact, from my own personal sources, that the soldiers were ordered not to fire unless their lives were at risk. These are very highly trained troops onb a very delicate mission - they wouldn’t disobey orders out of panic or trigger-happiness. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/38 "2010-05-31T11:00:44Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Eh… the US didn’t ratify the convention, we have territorial waters. The United States has territorial waters under maritime tradition or “common law” (and in fact ought to go ahead and finish ratifying the treaty it has signed). No interpretation of maritime tradition would permit Israel to intercept vessels in international waters, bound for another territory, regardless of their cargo, except as an act of war. > [@Noone\_Special](#): > > The bare truth is that the organizers of the flotilla **did not care an iota** for getting the humanitarian aid into Gaza. The **sole** purpose of this whole event was a PR win. That’s like saying the Satyagraha march of 1930 was just a PR event and the Indians didn’t really need any salt. Well, yes and no. There were real supplies on those vessels that the people in Gaza really need, but obviously there’s a larger issue in play as well. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/39 "2010-05-31T11:06:40Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’ll get you some video proof when some comes up. Till then, Israeli media is reporting 10 wounded soldiers, two of them seriously, from blunt trauma to the head and stabbing wounds. There are also some rumours of troops wounded from gunfire, but they haven’t been confirmed yet. Where’d these reports and rumors come from, exactly? I don’t disbelieve them, I just want to know the sources since nobody else seems to know about them. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/40 "2010-05-31T11:09:36Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > If people were coming after armed soldiers with knives and crowbars, then that damn well does justify life ammunition. Not really as those people wouldn’t be coming at the armed soldiers at all if the armed soldiers hadn’t attacked … with live ammunition. Yours is a classic case of blaming the victim. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=3)