# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/381 "2010-06-01T15:30:11Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > I have to say that when I started this thread not a single person here had any clue what I was on about and that shows a complete lack of awareness as to what is going on as you rely here on your own press and people like Alessan to tell you his truth. Staggering that you had no idea what I was talking about…The world as Erdogan said has been fed enough of your lies and it’s over now. > > Erdogan and Ahmedinejad are the rising powers here. The Arabs have more respect for these two than their own leaders. The Arabs leaders now know this and their situation is very precarious. > > Let’s see if the side with their Muslim brothers or the USA. > > We will see. Instead of chastizing us why don’t you post a link to the speech? I’ve read part of a speech he gave to the Turkish Parliament, but I am unsure if you mean that speech or some other speech. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/382 "2010-06-01T15:31:12Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’d say that they have a lot of work to do, too. Peace requires two sides. Yes it does: [Arab Peace Initiative - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative) ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/383 "2010-06-01T15:35:09Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Did any of you see the Turkish reporter hold the assassination list up to the camera before the satellite was cut on board the Mavi Marmara?..Armed commando’s dropping out of helicopters were obviously not dropping in for tea. > They had a mission. Be interesting to see the names of the dead and if they match with the list. Post a link. If it is only in another language then translate for us. If you can’t provide the evidence for such an amazing piece of evidence relating to the IDF’s motives, then why bring it up? Or maybe you don’t really believe it and want to back it up? ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/384 "2010-06-01T15:36:38Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > _Of course they would, that’s the point_. Read the 4th GC where it talks about how an occupying power can have the right to deny consignments to an enemy if doing so would have a detrimental effect on the enemy’s economy and the enemy can be forced to devote its resources to producing those consignments rather than aiding the enemy forces. Words fail me. What part of “Gaza doesn’t have enough food right now” are you struggling with? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/385 "2010-06-01T15:37:37Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > … The BBC has received information from reliable sources that there are currently 81 items that are approved for import - from kidney beans to tinned meat - and as of March, shoes. > > Among the large range of goods currently forbidden are jam, chocolate, wood for furniture, fruit juice, textiles, and plastic toys. > > So, the blockade is all about keeping out such deadly weapons as coriander, jam, chocolate and fruit juice? > … This does not compute. Food items and shoes? Toys? I could understand a blockade to stop weapons, and the materials used in making weapons. But toys, shoes and chocolate? Those are not legit targets for blockade UNLESS you are deliberately targeting the civilians. As to the reason for the blockade, if it is to protect Israel from missile and mortar attacks etc, fine. If it is to “take down” a duly elected government because they just don’t want Hamas there, that’s a completely different situation. Hamas was elected, legally. That’s one of the things countries and individuals like to say … that the will of people to choose their givernment, their “right” to self determination is important. I suppose it really only counts if it’s the ones “we” want". Democracy and free election means just that, even if the vote doesn’t go “your” way. Otherwise, it’s all just lip service. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/386 "2010-06-01T15:38:39Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > So no - and this is actually common knowledge - Israel does not see itself as the Occupying Power. > > But they are in the eyes of the international community. I know. It is Mr FinnAgain that is struggling with it as accepting that Israel denies being an occupying power limits his ability to use the Geneva Conventions rules regarding Occupying Powers to justify Israel’s actions. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/387 "2010-06-01T15:38:47Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > How many guns were there on the videos? > How many knives? > How many of these weapons were recovered from the dead by the Israeli heroes? > How many Israeli heroes were stabbed or shot? > You’re worse than pathetic because you defend the slaughter of innocents. Haven’t you been paying attention. They were trained streetfighters… TRAINED. There were 30 of them with bats and slingshots and only 30 IDF commandoes it was hardly a fair fight. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/388 "2010-06-01T15:39:52Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I think I’ll put this conversation on hold until the grownups arrive to talk. You mean the people who agree that Israel can never do any wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/389 "2010-06-01T15:44:56Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Hozni Mubarak has just announced that Rafah crossing will be opened immediately and will not be closed again. > All humanitarian aid and help to be given to Gazans immediately. > Arab Press. Feel free to post a link, in English or translated, to this too. People actually do care and if you gave them half a chance you would see that. > [@Alessan](#): > > I don’t know. I think the sight of U.S warships escorting feighters filled with coriander, washing machines and construction materials blissfully past Israeli defenses will do wonders for America’s reputation. After all, it’s not as if the U.S. doesn’t already consider Hamas a terrorist organization - this way it can portray itself as Gaza’s savior in spite of both Hamas and Israel. > > I think the bottom line is that Israel has to cut its losses and compromise. If the Palestinians would be willing to compromise in return, then maybe we could make some progress here. The world is divided into those willing to compromise and those unwilling to. Only the latter group would oppose such a settlement. Just wanted to say that I think this idea is a good one and hope it’s proposed by people with the power to do so. The only thing I might add is that I think a representative like Turkey should be added to the mix of vessels because of two reasons (1) it would leave a better impression as to the legitimacy of the blockade if a Muslim dominated country was manning it, and (2) it would start to repair relations between Israel and Turkey. Somebody has to give in and end this pissing contest between the countries. Something like what you’re proposing would be an opportunity to do so. Without it, it can only get worse. It will not improve on its own, over time. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/390 "2010-06-01T15:47:02Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I don’t believe they would. The USA (or another nation) can’t be viewed as implementing an Israeli policy like this . I also believe they would _lose_ points in the muslim world doing so. … > Also, I doubt anybody is going to be willing to put a foot in this hornet’s nest. The US would be putting themselves in the position of enforcing someone else’s blockade, in someone else’s war. As a U.S. citizen, I’d be completely against that. If Israel wants to blockade (setting aside the legality or efficiency of it), then they can do their own blockading. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/391 "2010-06-01T15:47:48Z")
Nevermind, responded to old posts. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/392 "2010-06-01T15:47:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What else could be the intent of a blockade? To prevent the combatants on the other side from getting weapons and war materiel, of course. What else would a MILITARY blockade be for? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/393 "2010-06-01T15:49:58Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Words fail me. What part, exactly, is giving you trouble? Do you deny that occupying powers are explicitly permitted to deny consignments if doing so will force the occupied group to devote resources to producing them? Do you deny that Gaza has arable land? Do you deny that they can devote their resources to farming that land? The relevant passage from the 4th GC has been cited several times. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/394 "2010-06-01T15:53:17Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > And why is it unreasonable for Israel to demand that ships dock in their port so that they can inspect the ships to be certain that what they are carrying is indeed humanitarian aid supplies and not weapons? Ashdod isn’t that far away. Because of the list of items prohibited (which would therefore be seized by Israeli customs). Did you miss the part where building supplies are verboten? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/395 "2010-06-01T15:55:56Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > I know. It is Mr FinnAgain that is struggling with it as accepting that Israel denies being an occupying power limits his ability to use the Geneva Conventions rules regarding Occupying Powers to justify Israel’s actions. Yes - the usual Shill performance. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/396 "2010-06-01T15:57:22Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > To prevent the combatants on the other side from getting weapons and war materiel, of course. What else would a MILITARY blockade be for? I’m still trying to figure out how coriander and chocolate would be considered weaponry. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/397 "2010-06-01T15:57:36Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Just wanted to say that I think this idea is a good one and hope it’s proposed by people with the power to do so. The only thing I might add is that I think a representative like Turkey should be added to the mix of vessels because of two reasons (1) it would leave a better impression as to the legitimacy of the blockade if a Muslim dominated country was manning it, and (2) it would start to repair relations between Israel and Turkey. Somebody has to give in and end this pissing contest between the countries. Something like what you’re proposing would be an opportunity to do so. Without it, it can only get worse. It will not improve on its own, over time. Turkey have said they will be providing a military escort for the next aid convoy. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/398 "2010-06-01T15:58:50Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Because of the list of items prohibited (which would therefore be seized by Israeli customs). > > Did you miss the part where building supplies are verboten? To my mind, the whole point of nonviolent resistance is to"show up" the powers against whom one is resisting as unreasonable, when they are being unreasonable. This stunt with the ships was obviously designed to obtain maximum publicity. So, bringing building supplies that have (presumably) no miltary function - and having the Israelis deny them entry, all in the glare of the media - would have served the activist’s purposes well, without the need for violence. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/399 "2010-06-01T15:59:03Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > What part, exactly, is giving you trouble? > Do you deny that occupying powers are explicitly permitted to deny consignments if doing so will force the occupied group to devote resources to producing them? > Do you deny that Gaza has arable land? Do you deny that they can devote their resources to farming that land? > > The relevant passage from the 4th GC has been cited several times. As Israel claims not to be an Occupying Power your cites are worthless flim-flammery. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/400 "2010-06-01T16:03:33Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > I know. It is Mr FinnAgain that is struggling with it as accepting that Israel denies being an occupying power limits his ability to use the Geneva Conventions rules regarding Occupying Powers to justify Israel’s actions. :rolleyes: > [@FinnAgain](#): > > > [@you](#): > > > > Again, is Israel an Occupying Power? > > Yes. . The Geneva Convention refers what the laws are for an occupying powers. It doesn’t refer to what the laws are depending on whether or not Livni says that it’s an occupying power. And again, the double standard is weird. You claim that Israel doesn’t have a right to the courses of action authorized by the 4th GC even though it’s an occupying power, but ignore the fact that even if that’s the case then Israel is carrying out a valid maritime military blockade against a hostile state. I’m not even sure why you’re privileging Livni’s comments above the Israeli Supreme Court’s rulings that there exists a state of belligerent occupation. By the way: [not only have you seen the relevant cite for the 4GC and consignments, you responded to it.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12520474&postcount=294) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=21)