# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/441 "2010-06-01T18:29:24Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > That’s not the opposite of Gandhi’s tactics. These guys didn’t come in with guns blazing. They didn’t throw bombs or anything like that. They were in international waters when they were boarded. I don’t know what happened but its hard to place all the blame on the people on the boat when IDF board a boat in international waters and as far as I can tell, the only people with guns were the IDF. I must have missed the part in Gandhi’s biography where Gandhi finally decided non-violence was for suckers and beat some colonial Brit with a baseball bat. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/442 "2010-06-01T18:36:47Z")
[QUOTE=Weird With Words] If someone jumps in my car while I’m driving without my permission, it doesn’t matter if I hit him, it still counts as an attempted hijacking. In that situation, no matter who hits first, the hijacker is the attacker. [/QUOTE] And if the police stop you and enter your vehicle and you take out a crow bar to attack them, then when they gun you down like a dog, well, sucks to be you, no? Your statement here is ridiculous since it doesn’t take into account any context (which presumably you don’t know about, since I’m certainly were weren’t trying to be deliberately provocative…right?). > [@](#): > > The soldiers attacked first. You can argue they initially attacked with non-lethal weaponry, and the flotilla struck the first dangerous blow, but they were not invited on-board. Hence, they attacked. It is a shame that reality doesn’t conform to your little statement here, because obviously your reality is so much neater and more black and white than, you know, actual reality. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/443 "2010-06-01T18:37:53Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > It doesn’t say anything good that your argument immediately moves on to fiction in order to support your claims. Only a portion of Lebanon was even involved in the fighting (the southern areas where Hezbollah was headquartered), and even then the entirety of the combat zone was hardly “flattened”. The north wasn’t touched. Really? > **[File:Locations bombed Aug13 no fact box.jpg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Locations_bombed_Aug13_no_fact_box.jpg)** > > LestatdeLioncourt. Originally was Locations\_bombed\_Aug13.jpg. Removed fact box because people complained. > In some countries this may not be legally possible; if so: > LestatdeLioncourt grants anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law. > Click on a date/time to view the file as it appeared at that time. > You cannot overwrite this file. > [@](#): > > If you will distort such basic facts to score rhetorical points, it doesn’t point to your argument as being particularly reliable, now does it? What does your distortion of such basic facts say about the reliability of your argument? > [@](#): > > P.S. This seems to be a repeat of a tactic you just demonstrated: Manchester City Center was not “flattened”. If you can’t make your points without relying on fiction, it’s a pretty good indicator that you haven’t got much of a point. Don’t make fact-checking the order of the day, eh? Yeah thats something you would NEVER do. Puhlease. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/444 "2010-06-01T18:41:13Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > And of course, we trusted the world to protect us before. It didn’t work out well. You never had a choice before. But I still wouldn’t expect you to throw yourself on the charity and mercy of “the world” ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/445 "2010-06-01T18:51:54Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Really? :dubious: Already shown: that picture is uncited, unsourced and gets its claims from a blog site that did not cite or source its claims either but simply copied down alleged news headlines from two stations and “other news services”. The group that produced the map is a highly unreliable source as they identify all of Israel as “occupied Palestine”. To say nothing of the fact that I was responding to a claim that, in context, defined the fighting as something that was reducing entire areas, with no mitigation, to rubble. As such I pointed out that the actual fighting that had actually rubbled some limited areas did not touch the north. If it helps, think of the fact as “The north was not touched [by the type of violence were are currently discussing]” In any case I’m not sure how much of the tangent is closed by moderator action and whether the verboten tangent is the totality of damage to Lebanon from the war or merely what he meant by his claims that the totality of Lebanon with no exception had been “flattened”. In either case, blargh. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/446 "2010-06-01T18:51:59Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Except the eyewitness report of a journalist present. But we can disregard that if it makes certain conclusion easier. > > Actually, we do. It’s in that cite that you’re ignoring. Yeah the account from the Al Jazeera reporter is kinda different than the one from the one from the Iesraeli reporter you cite. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/447 "2010-06-01T18:59:13Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yeah the account from the Al Jazeera reporter is kinda different than the one from the one from the Iesraeli reporter you cite. Not true at all. [This is the account](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/05/201053133047995359.html). It is very brief and does not touch on any of the issues raised. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/448 "2010-06-01T19:06:37Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > To say nothing of the fact that I was responding to a claim that, in context, defined the fighting as something that was reducing entire areas, with no mitigation, to rubble. The claim never was the whole area was reduced to rubble. The claim was Lebanon was flattened. As already demonstrated with examples from both sides of the Atlantic, this is an informal idiom (and also an exaggeration, which inexplicably you think is a competing concept) in English meaning bomb-struck, which any native English speaker should be able to parse in context. As I said, you have to be pretty God damned dumb to think I was implying the whole of Lebanon and Manchester were stamped out of existence, as if they’d been hit by a nuclear weapon. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/449 "2010-06-01T19:10:47Z")
Again: enough with the flattening. Both of you were told to drop it a page ago. I’m not sure why you found it necessary to revive the hijack, **FinnAgain** , but I expect neither of you will post about it again. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/450 "2010-06-01T19:15:21Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I’m not “thrilled” about the whole thing, but yeah, I’m starting to lean towards the theory that this mess was initiated and orchestrated with the intent of making the commandos fight, and someone somewhere was hoping some people would be killed, to make some sort of point. Should the Israelis have boarded a ship in international waters? I’d say no. However, once they were on board, let them do their search. let them do their inspection. File a formal complaint later. You don’t fight them unless you WANT someone killed. If a cop breaks the law to arrest you do you think you should go along peacefully? What if youa re a young black man in the south during Jim Crow? ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/451 "2010-06-01T19:19:16Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > And if the police stop you and enter your vehicle and you take out a crow bar to attack them, then when they gun you down like a dog, well, sucks to be you, no? Your statement here is ridiculous since it doesn’t take into account any context (which presumably you don’t know about, since I’m certainly were weren’t trying to be deliberately provocative…right?). That’s assuming you are somewhere where the police have authority. If I’m in the middle of, say, Mexico and, say, the Dutch police jump me I think I’d be well within my rights to fight them. The point being, this wasn’t in Israel or Israeli territorial waters. The Israelis had no authority. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/452 "2010-06-01T19:25:12Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m not sure why you found it necessary to revive the hijack, **FinnAgain** , What on Earth are you talking about? [I wasn’t the one who revived it.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12522229&postcount=443) And I’ll point out that I responded to Damuri’s mention of the hijack by pointing out what I was actually responding to and then indicated that I wasn’t going to continue the discussion after clearing up his mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/453 "2010-06-01T19:25:58Z")
> [@Gukumatz](#): > > - IDF forces claiming they fired their guns in “self defence” after boarding sovereign ships in clearly international waters. Your claim to self defence goes away when you’re the agressor in the first place. Is THAT the way self defense works? So you mean these commandoes are NOT like police who are exercising their police power? > [@](#): > > Yes, they could have surrendered when the troops came aboard and have lived to tell the tale, but they were well within their rights to defend themselves. If anything, the IDF forces should have surrendered when it became obvious that the resistance was stiffer than they had prepared for. I can just imagine IDF commandoes surrendering to a bunch of guys with kitchen knives and sticks. > [@](#): > > I don’t see Israel’s actions in this as being “evil,” by the way, just incredibly incompetent. No its not evil, it is incompetence sprouting from paranoia. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/454 "2010-06-01T19:29:15Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > That’s assuming you are somewhere where the police have authority. If I’m in the middle of, say, Mexico and, say, the Dutch police jump me I think I’d be well within my rights to fight them. > > The point being, this wasn’t in Israel or Israeli territorial waters. The Israelis had no authority. We’ve gon over the legalities of this already. So far, it would appear that the Israelis were “legally” enforcing a blockade. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/455 "2010-06-01T19:30:30Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > What on Earth are you talking about? > [I wasn’t the one who revived it.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12522229&postcount=443) Fine: **Damuri Ajashi** dug it up in the process of responding to posts from 24 hours ago, and you resumed discussion of what “flattening” is or isn’t even though a few hours ago you said you wouldn’t do that. > [@](#): > > And I’ll point out that I responded to Damuri’s mention of the hijack by pointing out what I was actually responding to and then indicated that I wasn’t going to continue the discussion after clearing up his mistake. It didn’t work, since **Capt. Riddley’s Shooting Party**"had " to respond to your response. You, **Damuri Ajashi** and **Capt. Ridley’s Shooting Party** are not to post about this tangent again. Any of you. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/456 "2010-06-01T19:32:15Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I’ve seen this claim made a couple of times. Is there any analysis as to exactly how the interception of the blocade-runners is “… very illegal and counts as hijacking in international waters”? In international waters ships are not open game, they fly a flag. > [@](#): > > It probably “took them by surprise” because they had previously boarded several other ships in the flotila without resistance. I read that the other ships did not have many people on them, just supplies. All the protesters were on this ship. > [@](#): > > I seriously doubt the last. If this happened within Israeli territorial waters, I suspect it would have created just as much “outrage”. Israel is the sovereign power in their own waters. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/457 "2010-06-01T19:34:01Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > I’m saying the blockade is “denying them goods essential for their survival”. If working medical equipment doesn’t qualify as “goods essential for their survival”, what on Earth does? Coriander? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/458 "2010-06-01T19:46:05Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Blaming Israel for armed attackers picking a fight with soldiers is… interesting. So the guys with kitchen knives were picking a fight with the IDF commandoes? Now THATS interesting. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/459 "2010-06-01T19:55:49Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So the guys with kitchen knives were picking a fight with the IDF commandoes? What do you think that they were doing, exactly? Advancing on someone brandishing a knife is a symbol of what, exactly, in your interpretation? Clubbing someone with a crowbar or steel pipe is a symbol of what, exactly, in your interpretation? > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > In international waters ships are not open game, they fly a flag.. Cites have already been provided showing that you are wrong. Blockade runners are not immune from a blockade simply by flying a flag. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/460 "2010-06-01T19:58:24Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > The relevant Geneva Convention has been cited previously. A blockading power is allowed to prohibit other things besides strictly military items, if it means the belligerent power they are blockading then have to devote resources to providing that would otherwise go to military resources. Coriander and chocolate are luxury items. Totally unnecessary to life. If the civilian population “needs” such luxuries badly enough, then Hamas will have to find a way to provide them, at the expense of their purely military pursuits. Prohibiting staples like wheat or rice? Illegal. Prohibiting luxuries like coriander and chocolate? Legal. Also, others have mentioned building materials. Those are legitimate war materiel, as they are exactly what’s used to build fortifications. Again, perfectly legal and legitimate contraband. See, I don’t like this. I don’t see the point of refusing spices and chocolate just for the sake of refusing their import. I also don’t see these are luxuries , either. Both spices and chocolate have health benefits - mainly as antioxidants. Some spices are actually good for you like black pepper or curcumin (I can detail why, but I don’t want to derail the thread unless asked). Diamonds, Ipods, and cologne are luxuries - chocolate and spices are not. Can someone give a sane explanation on why coriander should be barred from Gaza? Please? - Honesty [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=24)