# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/461 "2010-06-01T20:00:34Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > A good swing to the head with a crowbar can kill someone. I would have thought people would know that. Crowbar, hammer, if you can crush a skull with it, or punch a hole in the skull, you can kill - rather easily too. Yeah… but if I was expecting to fight commandoes, I would probably bring along something designed for killing rathern than something designed to pry open doors. Maybe this was suicide by IDF but it seems implausible. It doesn’t seem plausible that these guys were on this ship planning on getting killed by the IDF to put egg on Israel’s face. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/462 "2010-06-01T20:02:02Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > Assume a group of Mexican activists have been loudly trumpetting to the press their intention to illegally run the border of the US. They have other activists from other nations, as well as a handful of American’s who think the border policy is bad. > > Upon finally reaching the border, the activists are stopped by Border Patrol agents. One group of activists, however, rather than surrender to be processed, attacks the agents. The agents first respond with pepper spray and tasers, but when several agents are down, and the activists have taken their weapons, the agents move up to lethal force, killing a number of activists. > > Who is in the wrong, and why? > > (I am aware that this issue is slightly different, but I’m curious to hear people’s responses.) Exercising police powers within your borders is one thing. Exercising police powers in international waters to enforce a blockade that is causing a humanitarian crisis is another. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/463 "2010-06-01T20:02:24Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Please The 4th Geneva Convention has been cited, quoted, and the relevant sections have been discussed. Look over them to see what status consignments have if their absence would caused the occupied group to have to devote its resources to procuring them instead of other things. And at the point where _chocolate_ becomes anything other than a luxury good the argument becomes ridiculous. Chocolate is not a necessity because it has antioxidants any more than ribeyes are a necessity because they contain protein. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/464 "2010-06-01T20:04:14Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Again: enough with the flattening. Both of you were told to drop it a page ago. I’m not sure why you found it necessary to revive the hijack, **FinnAgain** , but I expect neither of you will post about it again. In fairness, it was **Damuri Ajashi** who brought it up again. \*\* Damuri Ajashi\*\*, pay attrention to Mod instructions. **Finn** , if you encounter this situation, simply link to the Mod instruction or Report it or ignore it. Don’t respond to closed issues. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/465 "2010-06-01T20:05:04Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Exercising police powers within your borders is one thing. Exercising police powers in international waters to enforce a blockade that is causing a humanitarian crisis is another. Again: military blockades are explicitly authorized in international waters. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/466 "2010-06-01T20:07:58Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > What do you think that they were doing, exactly? Advancing on someone brandishing a knife is a symbol of what, exactly, in your interpretation? Clubbing someone with a crowbar or steel pipe is a symbol of what, exactly, in your interpretation? A bunch of commandoes armed with guns boarding a boat in the middle of the night is a symbol of what, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/467 "2010-06-01T20:08:57Z")
Other than the weapons these “activists” used already mentioned, they took guns from some of the Israelis had and used them. We have here a flotilla of pro-Palestinians attempting to bust the blockade Israel (and Egypt) had. The blockade was necessitated because Gaza is “governed” by Hamas, a terrorist group. The whole purpose of this so-called “humanitarian” action was either to break the blockade or hold Israel to world-wide scorn if she used all reasonable force to enforce the blockade. Israel was in a dilemma. She is a small country amidst Arab nations, all of which want her eliminated. She already provides humanitarian aid to Gaza and she offered to deliver any humanitarian aid the flotilla had if they would just leave it at the port designated. Those that say Israel was “beyond the pale” and similar complaints just betray their antisemitism. 65 years after the Holocaust, and nothing has changed. These pro-Palestinians now plan to attempt to break the blockade again. Israel has no choice if she wants to continue to exist. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/468 "2010-06-01T20:12:55Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > And at the point where _chocolate_ becomes anything other than a luxury good the argument becomes ridiculous. Makes you wonder why the US Army has had it as a standard part of field rations since 1937. > **[Military chocolate (United States)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_chocolate)** > > Military chocolate has been a part of standard United States military rations since the original D-ration bar of 1937. Today, military chocolate is issued to troops as part of basic field rations and sundry packs. Chocolate rations served two purposes: as a morale boost, and as a high-energy, pocket-sized emergency ration. Military chocolate rations are often made in special lots to military specifications for weight, size, and endurance. The majority of chocolate issued to US military personnel ... ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/469 "2010-06-01T20:13:16Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > Those that say Israel was “beyond the pale” and similar complaints just betray their antisemitism. 65 years after the Holocaust, and nothing has changed. You’re generally free to say what you like about non-posters (within the limits mentioned a few pages ago). But **Frank** specifically said this was “beyond the pale,” so this post could be interpreted as calling him (and any poster who has criticized Israel) as an antisemite. That’s not allowed, so don’t do it. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/470 "2010-06-01T20:18:20Z")
Here’s the message from Israel’s Foreign Ministry. > [@](#): > > 1. A maritime blockade is in effect off the coast of Gaza. Such blockade has > been imposed, as Israel is currently in a state of armed conflict with the > Hamas regime that controls Gaza, which has repeatedly bombed civilian > targets in Israel with weapons that have been smuggled into Gaza via the > sea. > > 2. Maritime blockades are a legitimate and recognized measure under > international law that may be implemented as part of an armed conflict at > sea. > > 3. A blockade may be imposed at sea, including in international waters, so > long as it does not bar access to the ports and coasts of neutral states. > > 4. The naval manuals of several western countries, including the US and > England recognize the maritime blockade as an effective naval measure and > set forth the various criteria that make a blockade valid, including the > requirement of give due notice of the existence of the blockade. > > 5. In this vein, it should be noted that Israel publicized the existence of > the blockade and the precise coordinates of such by means of the accepted > international professional maritime channels. Israel also provided > appropriate notification to the affected governments and to the organizers > of the Gaza protest flotilla. Moreover, in real time, the ships > participating in the protest flotilla were warned repeatedly that a maritime > blockade is in effect. > > 6. Here, it should be noted that under customary law, knowledge of the > blockade may be presumed once a blockade has been declared and appropriate > notification has been granted, as above. > > 7. Under international maritime law, when a maritime blockade is in effect, > no boats can enter the blockaded area. That includes both civilian and > enemy vessels. > > 8. A state may take action to enforce a blockade. Any vessel that violates > or attempts to violate a maritime blockade may be captured or even attacked > under international law. The US Commander’s Handbook on the Law of Naval > Operations sets forth that a vessel is considered to be in attempt to breach > a blockade from the time the vessel leaves its port with the intention of > evading the blockade. > > 9. Here we should note that the protesters indicated their clear intention > to violate the blockade by means of written and oral statements. Moreover, > the route of these vessels indicated their clear intention to violate the > blockade in violation of international law. > > 10. Given the protesters explicit intention to violate the naval blockade, > Israel exercised its right under international law to enforce the blockade. > It should be noted that prior to undertaking enforcement measures, explicit > warnings were relayed directly to the captains of the vessels, expressing > Israel’s intent to exercise its right to enforce the blockade. > > 11. Israel had attempted to take control of the vessels participating in the > flotilla by peaceful means and in an orderly fashion in order to enforce the > blockade. Given the large number of vessels participating in the flotilla, > an operational decision was made to undertake measures to enforce the > blockade a certain distance from the area of the blockade. > > 12. Israeli personnel attempting to enforce the blockade were met with > violence by the protesters and acted in self defense to fend off such > attacks. > [http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Law/Legal+Issues+and+Rulings/Gaza\_floti](http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Law/Legal+Issues+and+Rulings/Gaza_floti) > lla\_maritime\_blockade\_Gaza-Legal\_background\_31-May-2010.htm ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/471 "2010-06-01T20:21:06Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > Those that say Israel was “beyond the pale” and similar complaints just betray their antisemitism. 65 years after the Holocaust, and nothing has changed. THANK FUCK. Somebody had to say it. I was worried that we were going to get through a discussion about Israel without someone accusing someone else of anti-semitism and referencing the holocaust. We can now all sleep better at night. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/472 "2010-06-01T20:22:33Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Look, can we all at least agree that Israel has no business trying to starve the Gazans into submission? That’s what this is all about, isn’t it? No that is just a happy side effect. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/473 "2010-06-01T20:23:41Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Keep out weapons. (Not sure why that needed to be pointed out.) Then why is coriander and cement on the list of prohibited items? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/474 "2010-06-01T20:26:21Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > You guys DO realize that if we REALLY wanted to starve the Gazanians, we would just cut their power and probably water, too, until they all keel over? Doesn’t that fact that we don’t do that prove anything? Of course Israel can do that, then Egypt would not cooperate in the blockade. Israel can only go so far in the blockade before people start wondering if the blockade is worth all the suffering, before people start wondering if hamas doesn’t have a point. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/475 "2010-06-01T20:26:23Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > A bunch of commandoes armed with guns boarding a boat in the middle of the night is a symbol of what, exactly? It’s a symbol of exactly what anyone should expect who tries to run a blockade. Especially when you had been explicitly warned and told to bring your cargo to a port where it could be inspected before sending it on to Gaza. That’s what it’s a symbol of. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/476 "2010-06-01T20:26:56Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Then why is coriander and cement on the list of prohibited items? Apparently FinnAgain feels very strongly that they should grow their own. So much so that they should be starved until they do it. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/477 "2010-06-01T20:28:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s a symbol of exactly what anyone should expect who tries to run a blockade. Especially when you had been explicitly warned and told to bring your cargo to a port where it could be inspected before sending it on to Gaza. That’s what it’s a symbol of. Yes, it is always best to attack with commandoes in the dead of night rather than try and achieve a peaceful end. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/478 "2010-06-01T20:28:35Z")
> [@Zephyurs](#): > > After my initial hot headedness Wait a few weeks for the whole story to come out, you will either feel even more foolish or feel a bit vindicated for your initial reaction. [quoteI’m thinking of this more as an unforced error on Israel’s part. Just under two dozen people are dead, and Israel has alienated its biggest Muslim ally, and got lots of bad press in the meantime. If instead it had just disabled the boat’s propeller with a frogman or used another less risky option, this could have turned out much better.[/QUOTE] Exactly, its not like Israel had no other choice but to send in teh commandoes. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/479 "2010-06-01T20:29:58Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I must have missed the part in Gandhi’s biography where Gandhi finally decided non-violence was for suckers and beat some colonial Brit with a baseball bat. 😃 That was in _Ghandi II, First Blood_. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/480 "2010-06-01T20:31:25Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Yes, it is always best to attack with commandoes in the dead of night rather than try and achieve a peaceful end. They tried to achieve a peaceful end, but were rebuffed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=25)