# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/481 "2010-06-01T20:32:59Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > For the record I think that the breadth of the blockade is wrong and draconian to the point of making Hamas seem even more like noble resistance fighters and unduly increasing hardship for ordinary Gazans. OMG, hell just froze over. > [@](#): > > Israel should do their best to set up and support reliable NGO’s who could guarantee the passage of consignments to the civilian populace of Gaza and weaken Hamas’ stranglehold. A snowball is now the king of Hell, I find myself agreeing with something Finn says (on Israel, we tend to agree on a lot of other topics). ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_With\_Words](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weird_with_words/32/385_2.png) [@Weird\_With\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_With_Words)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/482 "2010-06-01T20:33:29Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > And if the police stop you and enter your vehicle and you take out a crow bar to attack them, then when they gun you down like a dog, well, sucks to be you, no? Police would have the authority to pull me over, an authority I tacitly agree to by continuing to live here. These soldier had no such authority, as it did not take place in their country, or anywhere they have any claim to. > [@](#): > > It is a shame that reality doesn’t conform to your little statement here, because obviously your reality is so much neater and more black and white than, you know, actual reality. I do not see this in black and white terms, in fact it all seems very muddled. That’s why I’m latching onto the one part of this that seems pretty undeniable, and that would be the words: International Waters. This is exactly what happens when you respond to a political threat with military force. Someone is going to get shot, and the onus will be on the people who responded militarily in the first place, regardless of who shot first. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/483 "2010-06-01T20:34:28Z")
Who cares that they warned them? If I tell you I’ll shoot you if you come to my town and I subsequently shoot you when you come to my town does it somehow make it okay? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/484 "2010-06-01T20:37:22Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > The calculus seems to be that degrading Hamas’ capabilities as much as possible is valuable even if they can’t be eliminated totally. Isn’t there SOME way that Israel can let SOME of the people out of Gaza? Certainly there are people in gaza that didn’t vote for Hamas right? Does Israel think that a popular revolt can overthrow Hamas in Gaza? Probably not, so why not let out the obviously innocent civilians and let them move to the West bank or something? > [@](#): > > Ah, I see you’re new to these threads? 😃 I think you have an overblown sense of how critical we are of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/485 "2010-06-01T20:37:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > They tried to achieve a peaceful end, but were rebuffed. How did they attempt to do it and in what way were they rebuffed? ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/486 "2010-06-01T20:38:36Z")
Who are these activists? [http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam\_multimedia/English/eng\_n/html/hamas\_e105.htm](http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/hamas_e105.htm) [http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publications/WP2006/DIIS%20WP%202006-7.web.pdf](http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publications/WP2006/DIIS%20WP%202006-7.web.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_With\_Words](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weird_with_words/32/385_2.png) [@Weird\_With\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_With_Words)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/487 "2010-06-01T20:40:01Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > Who are these activists? > > [http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam\_multimedia/English/eng\_n/html/hamas\_e105.htm](http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/hamas_e105.htm) > > [http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publications/WP2006/DIIS%20WP%202006-7.web.pdf](http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publications/WP2006/DIIS%20WP%202006-7.web.pdf) So… where does helping us in New Orleans fit into their agenda? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/488 "2010-06-01T20:40:55Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > In international waters ships are not open game, they fly a flag. > > I read that the other ships did not have many people on them, just supplies. All the protesters were on this ship. > > Israel is the sovereign power in their own waters. I feel a bit like I’m in a time machine. 😃 Just a suggestion - you’d get more, and better, responses if you read through the whole thread first. Many of your points have alreadly been addressed subsequently. For example, the whole “international waters” thing has alreadly been thrashed through (the answer: whether the ships were in ‘international waters’ or not is irrelevant from an international law perspective). ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/489 "2010-06-01T20:43:40Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I feel a bit like I’m in a time machine. 😃 > > Just a suggestion - you’d get more, and better, responses if you read through the whole thread first. Many of your points have alreadly been addressed subsequently. > > For example, the whole “international waters” thing has alreadly been thrashed through (the answer: whether the ships were in ‘international waters’ or not is irrelevant from an international law perspective). Well my opinion has always been that you can be legally in the right but still morally wrong. My views on the death penalty cover this, for example. It is legal in certain places in the world. It is still morally wrong to do it IMHO. What Israel did may be legally OK, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t immoral and stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/490 "2010-06-01T20:47:29Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > You know, I’ve been thinking about it, and I’ve reached the conclusion that the U.S. could fix this entire mess. All it would take would be for Presdent Obama to announce that the U.S. Sixth Fleet would be inspectinng any and all humanitarian aid ships and guarantee their passage (if they aren’t carrying any arms) directly to Gaza. So long as ships willing submitted themselves to U.S. inspection. Israel would not be involved at all. > > I think it would work. Israel trusts the U.S. not to allow arms through, and the Palestinians would be happy to receive the aid directly at Gaza and not at Israel’s whim. If the whole purpose is actually to help the Gazans and not to humilliate Israel and escalate the conflict, it would be a win-win situation. > > It doesn’t even need to be the U.S. alone. There are several nations that would be accpetable to all parties - like France or German or Japan. It would be exactly the kind of peacekeeping effort the international community could be proud of. But what if the US allows coriander? ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/491 "2010-06-01T20:48:47Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > But what if the US allows coriander? Then the terrorists have won. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/492 "2010-06-01T20:49:20Z")
> [@Weird\_With\_Words](#): > > These soldier had no such authority[…] and that would be the words: International Waters. The right of a power to enforce a maritime blockade by military force in international waters has long since been cited in this thrad. > [@amanset](#): > > Apparently FinnAgain feels very strongly that they should grow their own. So much so that they should be starved until they do it. I have told you, several times, that I believe that the blockade’s restrictions should be eased even while I have pointed out what the actual law saw about consignments. > [@amanset](#): > > Makes you wonder why the US Army has had it as a standard part of field rations since 1937. You’re now claiming that sweet treats are a necessity because the Army gave it to their troops. You are aware that cigarettes were part of the ration, too? Are cigarettes also necessities? At the point where you’re arguing that candy is a necessity, your argument has lost any degree of accuracy. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Isn’t there SOME way that Israel can let SOME of the people out of Gaza? I have repeatedly now pointed out how odd it is to focus solely on Israel when Egypt can and has opened its border many times in the past. Why is your concern “Isn’t there SOME way that Egypt can let SOME of the people out of Gaza?” ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/493 "2010-06-01T20:49:49Z")
Here’s the deal. When some nation declares a blockade and you decide to run it, you have effectively decided to pick a fight. You can argue who is morally or legally “right” but right or wrong, Israel is the side with the destroyers, helicopters and commandos. When said commandos drop out of the sky onto your deck and you attack them with guns, bats, pool cues, deck chairs or whatever, they are likely to care about little else other than defending themselves with whatever they happen to have handy - in this case Israeli assault rifles. I mean what do you think happens next if you somehow repel the boarders anyhow? Something that doesn’t involve 5" shells crashing through your hull and exploding? Maybe that’s what they wanted. Basically to provoke a fight that would result in a media shitstorm for Israel, in which case, mission accomplished. > [@Weird With Words](#): > > Police would have the authority to pull me over, an authority I tacitly agree to by continuing to live here. These soldier had no such authority, as it did not take place in their country, or anywhere they have any claim to. I tacitly agree to their authority by not wanting my head blown off. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/494 "2010-06-01T20:50:53Z")
> [@Weird\_With\_Words](#): > > That’s why I’m latching onto the one part of this that seems pretty undeniable, and that would be the words: International Waters. Again with the “international waters”. So far as we have been able to determine, that’s totally irrelevant to the legality of Israel’s acts under international law. There is a more concise discussion of that very issue in this thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12522171#post12522171](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12522171#post12522171) In summary: a state having legally declared a blockade may ‘attack’ (that is, interfere with, arrest, etc.) a ship that is not in “neutral waters” which is a blockade-runner - meaning, they can do so in “international waters”. There is a treaty by which certain states have agreed not to do this to ships in 'international waters", but importantly neither Israel nor Turkey (the ship in issue was under the Turkish flag) are signatories to that treaty. This has lead many commentators to (totally incorrectly) assume that blockade-runners cannot, as a generality under international law, be interfered with in international waters. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/495 "2010-06-01T20:55:51Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > When hyperbole is deliberately used to replace a factual analysis in a discussion, it distorts the issue. And he clarified almost immediately. Why are you harping on this? His clarification should have either exposed the weakness of his argument without the hyperbole or it will have no effect because the argument doesn’t depend on the hyperbole. > [@](#): > > Which brings us back to any of your recent non-factual claims. The south was not “completely” flattened. “The whole of Lebanon” was not bombed, let alone rubbled. Did you also say something about the north of Lebanon not being touched when it demonstrably had been touched. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/496 "2010-06-01T20:56:23Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Well my opinion has always been that you can be legally in the right but still morally wrong. > > My views on the death penalty cover this, for example. It is legal in certain places in the world. It is still morally wrong to do it IMHO. > > What Israel did may be legally OK, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t immoral and stupid. > **[A brutal ambush at sea](https://www.ynetnews.com/article/3896796)** > > Ron Ben Yishai recounts bloody clash aboard Gaza-bound vessel: The lacking crowd-dispersal means, the brutal violence of ‘peace activists,’ and the attempt to bring down an IDF helicopter ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/497 "2010-06-01T20:57:39Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Well my opinion has always been that you can be legally in the right but still morally wrong. > > My views on the death penalty cover this, for example. It is legal in certain places in the world. It is still morally wrong to do it IMHO. > > What Israel did may be legally OK, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t immoral and stupid. Would it be moral and sensible, in your opinion, if it took place within Israeli territorial waters? ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/498 "2010-06-01T21:00:15Z")
> **[National Post](https://nationalpost.com/?id=3094801)** > > Read latest breaking news, updates, and headlines. National Post offers information on latest national and international events & more. [http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/6044639/peace-convoy-this-was-an-islamist-terror-ambush.thtml](http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/6044639/peace-convoy-this-was-an-islamist-terror-ambush.thtml) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/499 "2010-06-01T21:00:18Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Then why is coriander and cement on the list of prohibited items? Are you in some sort of time warp reading this thread, late? You keep responding to posts that are days old. In this instance, one poster made a sarcastic comment indicating that starvation was the goal of the blockade. A second poster asked a sarcastic question _Why else would they have one?_. I replied, sarcastically, with a one-liner about weapons, demonstrating that the one-liners were not really helpful to the discussion. I never claimed that that was the only reason for the blockade and I have taken no position on the entire list of banned materiel. Even FinnAgain has noted that the overall banned list has problems with it. A number of posters (on both sides) would really do well to actually take the time and spend the energy to try to find out what all the issues might be and pay attention to the response. (It won’t happen, but you all would do well if you would.) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/500 "2010-06-01T21:02:13Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > it certainly shows the double standard that your argument is based on; Israeli politicians’ claims are cited as gospel when it suits the argument to deny the applicability of the 4th GC to the present situation, but the Israeli response to this incident that argues that they had a right to enforce the blockade is dismissed. That double standard (imposing the burdens of an occupying power without the powers of an occupying power) because israel applies the inverse of that double standard to itself (taking all the powers of an occupying power without the attendant responsibiltiies). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=26)