# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/501 "2010-06-01T21:02:22Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And he clarified almost immediately. Why are you harping on this? His clarification should have either exposed the weakness of his argument without the hyperbole or it will have no effect because the argument doesn’t depend on the hyperbole. > > Did you also say something about the north of Lebanon not being touched when it demonstrably had been touched. **PAY ATTENTION**. This morning **FinnAgain** and **Capt. Riddley’s Shooting Party** were told to drop this tangent seven hours ago in post #345. It had already gone on much too long. You have been told _twice_ not to revive it - by me in post #455 and at about the same time by **tomndebb** in post #464. You need to read all the way to the end of a thread before you post; you’re now responding to something **FinnAgain** said ten hours and three pages ago. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/502 "2010-06-01T21:03:20Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > [A brutal ambush at sea](http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3896796,00.html) Some high-quality objective journalism, there. I would have expected an English-language newspaper to employer writers fluent in English, though. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![capeo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@capeo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capeo)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/503 "2010-06-01T21:04:06Z")
> [@Mogle](#): > > One thing to keep in mind is that at this point we only get to hear the IDF’s side of the story, since everyone who was aboard the ship are(last I saw any news) still in custody and aren’t allowed to talk to the media. > > I’m not saying anything about the truthfulness in what the IDF is reporting but they are currently in control of all the information about what happened on that ship and will undoubtedly try to cast themselves in an as positive light as possible(as will the activists when they get a chance present their version of the events). Quite true. The only thing they can be discerned from the video is that the people on the ship did certainly attack the soldiers as soon as the first one was lowered onto the deck. That’s clear. Aside from that, who knows? I have to say, it’s pretty ballsy to attack armed soldiers with bats and the like though. That’s no commentary on whether the soldiers had any right to be there at all, just that, well, what did you think might happen? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/504 "2010-06-01T21:05:59Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > The north was not subject to the intensive bombing campaign that did indeed reduce large portions of several areas to ruins. That’s not what you said. You said the North was NOT TOUCHED. That is demonstrably false. Why does everything you said to Capt. Ridley not also apply to you? ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/505 "2010-06-01T21:10:08Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > That’s not what you said. You said the North was NOT TOUCHED. That is demonstrably false. > > Why does everything you said to Capt. Ridley not also apply to you? \*\*Mod Note:\*\*I see by the time stamps that I can not reasonably pin you with ignoring **Tomndeb’s** warning above, but you can consider this the final warning. Any posts on the subject after this post will result in formal warnings. Read post #501 for the warning proper. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/506 "2010-06-01T21:12:35Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Did any of you see the Turkish reporter hold the assassination list up to the camera before the satellite was cut on board the Mavi Marmara? What list? You have a cite? ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/507 "2010-06-01T21:13:20Z")
I just wanted to add that the Israeli videos lack context, we don’t see what happened prior to the actions that we see in the video, we just see the excerpt that they want to use to make their case. I think the posters that want to go along with Israel’s story base on the video “snippets” released would be of a different mind if the video “snippets” were presented by the other side to condemn the actions of Israel. The cry would be loud for seeing all of the footage as opposed to a small snippet designed to make a particular point in the abscence of the context that one would get from all of the footage that mind you the Israelis do have. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/508 "2010-06-01T21:15:37Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Hozni Mubarak has just announced that Rafah crossing will be opened immediately and will not be closed again. > All humanitarian aid and help to be given to Gazans immediately. > Arab Press. Whoa!!! WTF!!! > [@](#): > > Italy is sending two aid ships now to Gaza and Israel is threatening it as we speak. WTF!!! This is all happening too fast, someone is going to make a mistake. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/509 "2010-06-01T21:15:56Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I have told you, several times, that I believe that the blockade’s restrictions should be eased even while I have pointed out what the actual law saw about consignments. Whilst at the same time arguing quite strongly that an adequate food supply is one that doesn’t starve you to death. Oh and that apparently they should be using 30% of Gaza for farming. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > You’re now claiming that sweet treats are a necessity because the Army gave it to their troops. You are aware that cigarettes were part of the ration, too? > Are cigarettes also necessities? > At the point where you’re arguing that candy is a necessity, your argument has lost any degree of accuracy. Of course the difference being that chocolate is still a standard part of the rations. I can’t find a cite for when they stopped being included, but this page of international field rations seems to show just about all of them still containing chocolate and only one (greece) even mentioning cigarettes: > **[Field ration](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_ration)** > > A field ration is a type of prepackaged military ration designed to be easily and quickly prepared and consumed in the field, in combat, at the front line, or where eating facilities are otherwise unavailable. Field rations are primarily used by military forces, though they are also sometimes distributed to civilians as part of humanitarian aid and emergency management. > Field rations differ from garrison rations and field kitchen provisions, which are intended for where proper meals can be sup... I have repeatedly now pointed out how odd it is to focus solely on Israel when Egypt can and has opened its border many times in the past. Why is your concern “Isn’t there SOME way that Egypt can let SOME of the people out of Gaza?” [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/510 "2010-06-01T21:16:37Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > This is all happening too fast, someone is going to make a mistake. Now there’s an ironic statement. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/511 "2010-06-01T21:17:04Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Of course, yet more nations attempting to violate a valid military blockade is not a good thing, and people who desire peace do not wish such things. Let’s hope that cooler heads prevail and we’re not going to see a war because some nations simply had to violate a blockade of a genocidal, rejectionist terror organization. There is nothing about a military blockade that must be respected. Defying a blockade is enough reason for Israel to declare war on italy tho. I agree, people need to slow their roll, this is going to spin out of control. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/512 "2010-06-01T21:17:20Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > That double standard (imposing the burdens of an occupying power without the powers of an occupying power) because israel applies the inverse of that double standard to itself (taking all the powers of an occupying power without the attendant responsibiltiies). And where have they been remiss? They have supplied humanitarian aid and offered to transfer any humanitarian aid the flotilla had? Israel does not occupay Gaza, anyway. Hamas does, and Israel is trying to prevent more arms being shipped to Hamas. Really Not All That Bright: > [@](#): > > Some high-quality objective journalism, there. I would have expected an English-language newspaper to employer writers fluent in English, though. See my subsequent post. One cite is from an English newspaper, and the English media has been notorious for taking an anti-Israel position. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/513 "2010-06-01T21:18:21Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > [A brutal ambush at sea](http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3896796,00.html) And your point is? ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/514 "2010-06-01T21:20:51Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > And your point is? My point is that I’m giving you the facts, not the propaganda being promulgated. See also my other two cites. ---
**Author:** ![capeo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@capeo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capeo)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/515 "2010-06-01T21:21:15Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > I just wanted to add that the Israeli videos lack context, we don’t see what happened prior to the actions that we see in the video, we just see the excerpt that they want to use to make their case. I think the posters that want to go along with Israel’s story base on the video “snippets” released would be of a different mind if the video “snippets” were presented by the other side to condemn the actions of Israel. The cry would be loud for seeing all of the footage as opposed to a small snippet designed to make a particular point in the abscence of the context that one would get from all of the footage that mind you the Israelis do have. A good portion of the video is actually from people on the boat though I’d imagine it was still released by Israel itself. Given, it is snippets so it does lack a level of context. It certainly does show armed soldiers getting the crap kicked out of them, in close up, and not shooting. That was my only point. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/516 "2010-06-01T21:22:30Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Would it be moral and sensible, in your opinion, if it took place within Israeli territorial waters? Slightly less immoral, but seeing as I see the blockade itself as being immoral I don’t think I will ever see the defending of the blockade in any way or any place as morally right. the way it as performed was also not sensible, no matter where. Approaching with ships in the light of day, like customs officers, would have been far more sensible than commandoes armed with guns rappelling down from helicopters in the dead of night. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/517 "2010-06-01T21:25:55Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I’m still trying to figure out how coriander and chocolate would be considered weaponry. Maybe you can make pepper spray with corainder. Chocolate, I don’t get but maybe you can mix it with fertilizer and make a bomb or something. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/518 "2010-06-01T21:26:27Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > There is nothing about a military blockade that must be respected. Defying a blockade is enough reason for Israel to declare war on italy tho. > > I agree, people need to slow their roll, this is going to spin out of control. It already is. So will Israel start holding or firing on all ships? If they do, they will be in a world of shit. If they don’t their blockade is worthless (and they will be in a world of shit). So what now? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/519 "2010-06-01T21:28:20Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Slightly less immoral, but seeing as I see the blockade itself as being immoral I don’t think I will ever see the defending of the blockade in any way or any place as morally right. > > the way it as performed was also not sensible, no matter where. Approaching with ships in the light of day, like customs officers, would have been far more sensible than commandoes armed with guns rappelling down from helicopters in the dead of night. My point is that “international waters” has nothing to do with it. That appears to be a bit of mistaken legalism. The first take that many have is that what Israel did was _illegal under international law_. That being disproved doesn’t appear to change anyone’s opinions on the incident, however. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/520 "2010-06-01T21:30:15Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Do you consider me one of those people? No. (and I hope I’m not getting too personal) I would say you are a bit more than your run of the mill apologist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=27)