# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/521 "2010-06-01T21:31:20Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Turkey have said they will be providing a military escort for the next aid convoy. WTF dude!!! ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/522 "2010-06-01T21:32:43Z")
> [@capeo](#): > > There’s video on all the news sites. The soldiers were attacked violently with hand weapons and one was actually thrown overboard. The soldiers try to retreat at first actually but they’re story is that two attackers had handguns and opened fire on them. So who knows what sparked it or how true that is. Yeah i can’t access video from here but it sounds like the Commandoes didn’t have a choice once they were in teh soup. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/523 "2010-06-01T21:33:46Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I must have missed the part in Gandhi’s biography where Gandhi finally decided non-violence was for suckers and beat some colonial Brit with a baseball bat. 😃 I would say that the popposite of gandhi’s tactics would be offensive attacks on the brits rather than reactive attacks on brits that attack Indians. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/524 "2010-06-01T21:35:01Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Again: enough with the flattening. Both of you were told to drop it a page ago. I’m not sure why you found it necessary to revive the hijack, **FinnAgain** , but I expect neither of you will post about it again. Sorry its probably my fualt. I didn’t realize this was out of bounds until ab out two pages ago. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/525 "2010-06-01T21:36:03Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Cites have already been provided showing that you are wrong. Blockade runners are not immune from a blockade simply by flying a flag. Yeah I think your cite creates room for Israel’s actions assuming that the blockade is legal. Doesn’t really seem to be helping tho. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/526 "2010-06-01T21:37:18Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > See my subsequent post. One cite is from an English newspaper, and the English media has been notorious for taking an anti-Israel position. Well the BBC has angered at least one Palestinian group with their pro-Israeli bias: [http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=288843](http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=288843) Anyway the English media has not “been notorious for” anything of the sort. Both sides like to shout very loudly about how it is biased against them. More on the BBC regarding this: > **[Tim Llewellyn: The story TV news won't tell](https://www.theguardian.com/media/2004/jun/20/israel.broadcasting)** > > For 10 years Tim Llewellyn was the BBC's Middle East correspondent. In this passionately argued polemic he accuses British broadcasters, including his former employer, of systematic bias in covering the Arab-Israeli conflict, giving undue prominence... > **[BBC anti-Israel bias is a myth | Sharif Nashashibi](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/jun/26/bbc-anti-israel-bias)** > > Sharif Nashashibi: The broadcaster favours Israeli over Palestinian sources in its news reports – as does al-Jazeera, a new study shows Both sides are generally covered in the UK newspapers as well. Some are quite pro-Israel and some are quite pro-Palestine. Please don’t ever confuse “people shouting loudly” with “actual evidence”. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/527 "2010-06-01T21:39:33Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > My point is that “international waters” has nothing to do with it. That appears to be a bit of mistaken legalism. > > The first take that many have is that what Israel did was _illegal under international law_. That being disproved doesn’t appear to change anyone’s opinions on the incident, however. Good thing I wasn’t talking about the legality of it then. In fact, that was the whole bloody point of what I posted; that things can be legal and yet still morally reprehensible. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/528 "2010-06-01T21:41:01Z")
> [@capeo](#): > > A good portion of the video is actually from people on the boat though I’d imagine it was still released by Israel itself. Given, it is snippets so it does lack a level of context. It certainly does show armed soldiers getting the crap kicked out of them, in close up, and not shooting. That was my only point. Without the full video anything can be happening here, it could be agent provacatuers that boarded the boat along with the comandos, you really have no way of knowing but once all of the activists get released we’ll hear more of the truth about the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/529 "2010-06-01T21:58:18Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Good thing I wasn’t talking about the legality of it then. In fact, that was the whole bloody point of what I posted; that things can be legal and yet still morally reprehensible. Yeah, I understood that. My point (to which yours was in response) was that what you said is, in fact, is what motivates people - some gut-level opinion about the rightness or wrongness of the blockade, and presumably about the conflct as a whole. My evidence of this is that those who _initially_ state that they are affronted by the “illegality” of Israeli actions do not, in any case I know of, change their minds when it is proven that those acts were, in point of fact, “legal”. See, I totally agree with you - the legality or otherwise of the acts appears to be essentially irrelevant to people’s opinions of them. Sadly, for the most part, as someone in the thread above loudly proclaimed, so do the facts. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/530 "2010-06-01T22:27:10Z")
[QUOTE=Weird With Words] Police would have the authority to pull me over, an authority I tacitly agree to by continuing to live here. These soldier had no such authority, as it did not take place in their country, or anywhere they have any claim to. [/QUOTE] I don’t even know what to say to the above. This train wreck of a thread is 11 pages in now, and it’s been explained at least a dozen times already, yet you can still assert this with a straight face and eyes shinning with…well, something. Unreal. Though I know it’s futile in the face of such militant stubbornness, and just to be clear here, the Israeli’s have EXACTLY the same authority to stop these ships and inspect them as the police have to pull you over. The fact that it did not take place in their country is IRRELEVANT, and they DO have such a claim. Which part of the above (that has been explained multiple times already) don’t you seem to be tracking in on, exactly? I’m genuinely curious here, since it seems to me to be about as cut and dried as these kinds of things get. > [@](#): > > I do not see this in black and white terms, in fact it all seems very muddled. That’s why I’m latching onto the one part of this that seems pretty undeniable, and that would be the words: International Waters. And what fact based assertion about ‘International Waters’ do you suppose has a bearing on this question? Can you cite why you believe that ‘International Waters’ has any bearing, or why this makes Israel have no authority to enforce their blockade in them? > [@](#): > > This is exactly what happens when you respond to a political threat with military force. Someone is going to get shot, and the onus will be on the people who responded militarily in the first place, regardless of who shot first. Why is the onus not on those who deliberately provoked this incident?? What do you base your assertions on (aside from raw emotion and ignorance of the actual international statutes involved)??? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/531 "2010-06-01T22:54:28Z")
> [@Weird\_With\_Words](#): > > The soldiers attacked first. You can argue they initially attacked with non-lethal weaponry, and the flotilla struck the first dangerous blow, but they were not invited on-board. Hence, they attacked. If the Israelis were permitted by international law to be on board to enforce their blockade, you cannot claim that this justified the activists’ retailiation as self-defence. Just like you can’t assault a police officer for tresspassing if he’s got a warrant that permits him to be on your property. If the activists were not aware of their obligation to allow Israeli soldiers on board, given their stated objective of running the Israeli blockade, they are still fully to blame for their actions. Ignorance of the law is not considered a valid defence. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/532 "2010-06-01T23:04:17Z")
[QUOTE=Grumman] Ignorance of the law is not considered a valid defence. [/QUOTE] True. Sadly, it’s considered a valid reason to post, however… -XT ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/533 "2010-06-01T23:17:11Z")
Well some of the aid workers/activists (delete whichever you disagree with) have been released and are claiming that the israelis opened fire on the ship before boarding: > **[Israelis opened fire before boarding Gaza flotilla, say released activists](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jun/01/gaza-flotilla-eyewitness-accounts-gunfire)** > > First eyewitness accounts of raid contradict version put out by Israeli officials > [@](#): > > She told reporters that she and her child hid in the bathroom of their cabin during the confrontation. “The operation started immediately with firing. First it was warning shots, but when the Mavi Marmara wouldn’t stop these warnings turned into an attack,” she said. > > “There were sound and smoke bombs and later they used gas bombs. Following the bombings they started to come on board from helicopters.” ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/534 "2010-06-01T23:18:55Z")
I thought the debate over the legality of boarding the floatilla had more to do with the ‘occupying country’ question and less with the International Waters issue. ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_With\_Words](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weird_with_words/32/385_2.png) [@Weird\_With\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_With_Words)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/535 "2010-06-01T23:26:16Z")
Grumman & xtisme Are you referring to this: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12522171#post12522171](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12522171#post12522171) It’s a good explanation, but I don’t see how it proves me wrong. What I see boils down to this: Israel has the authority because they have the power to enforce it. However, the entire point of the flotilla was to deny that authority. Of course they didn’t see the boarding/invading (depending on whose side you take) soldiers as a legitimate authority. But then, all of this assumes the activists hit/shot first, which has never been proven. Let me be clear about one thing, I do not blame the soldiers. This is just what happens when you send soldiers to do a non-violent job. The responsibility is on the shoulders of the command, and on the world for allowing this situation to go on as it has. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/536 "2010-06-01T23:44:06Z")
I am only addressing this because this style of argument I have seen it used too often and it is not only frustrating, moderators end up warning the non-offending party when they get frustrated. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > :dubious: > Already shown: that picture is uncited, unsourced and gets its claims from a blog site that did not cite or source its claims either but simply copied down alleged news headlines from two stations and “other news services”. The group that produced the map is a highly unreliable source as they identify all of Israel as “occupied Palestine”. This map was all over the place at the time and noone argued that this was grossly inaccurate. You make incorrect statements from time to time as well as anyone else but that doesn’t make it logical for me to cast a pall over everything you say. [quote] If it helps, think of the fact as "The north was not touched [by the type of violence were are currently discussing]"9/quote] But thats not what you said and you’ve been busting chops over the precise use of words. I think its time for you to stop spending pages and pages on an issue after someone admits that they were engaging in hyperbole or using an idiomatic phrase or they made a small mistake of fact. It is not only distracting it does nothing for the argument. I don’t know if they have a word for this sort of tactic but its very ineffective. > [@](#): > > In any case I’m not sure how much of the tangent is closed by moderator action and whether the verboten tangent is the totality of damage to Lebanon from the war or merely what he meant by his claims that the totality of Lebanon with no exception had been “flattened”. > In either case, blargh. I am not taking issue with the facts of the Lebanese invasion. I am taking issue with the method of argument you fell into. You pick up some inaccuracy, overstatement, or use of rhetoric on some tangential issue and proceed to focus on that inaccuracy as if it will advance the argument of the main issue. I mean you spend PAGES on this sort of stuff and it is very frustrating when Capt. Ridley says something and you continue to impeach him with the same overstatement that he made and clarified half a dozen pages ago. [if this is more appropriate for another board please delete the following and just let me know where its supposed to go] I would also like to note that it has been my experience that Finn gets away with implying other people’s dishonesty while others do not get away with implying Finn’s dishonesty. Granted Finn never steps way over the line like some other posters but I have seen people say things that were no more offensive than what Finn says and Finn seem to get away with it while the other poster gets told to tone it down. I don’t know if its because you are acting within the rules technically speaking while others have made some footfault that you have not but I wish some moderator would explain to me why this seems to be the case. It happens in thread after thread. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/537 "2010-06-01T23:47:32Z")
[QUOTE=Weird With Words] Are you referring to this: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...1#post12522171](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...1#post12522171) [/QUOTE] Considering that the entire thread you linked to there seemed to be full of GD type speculative BS without much substance, I’m going to go with ‘no’, for my own answer. Grumman of course is free to give his or her own take on it. > [@](#): > > It’s a good explanation, but I don’t see how it proves me wrong. If you are referring to the thread you linked to, I don’t believe it was a very good explanation, since it was remarkably short on actual cited facts for a GQ type thread. Disappointingly so. > [@](#): > > What I see boils down to this: Israel has the authority because they have the power to enforce it. Well, that’s certainly a valid point as well in the ‘might makes right’ school of thought. Leaving that aside, however, there is the little matter of Israel having the right to enforce their blockade, especially if they suspect someone is trying to smuggle in weapons. And let’s be honest here…these fools who tried to run the blockade had ‘guilty’ written in large, bold letters all over them. > [@](#): > > However, the entire point of the flotilla was to deny that authority. How did that work out for them? How would it work out for you if you told that cop that he didn’t have the authority to search your MJ wreaking car for drugs? Or to have you take a breathalyzer test when you were weaving about the road from side to side? > [@](#): > > Of course they didn’t see the boarding/invading (depending on whose side you take) soldiers as a legitimate authority. Well…yeah. Of course they didn’t. But denial of reality isn’t the same things as being right, no? I could say that I don’t acknowledge the authority of the folks at the air port to search my bags or take my deadly bottle of shampoo away because they fear it’s an explosive…but how do you suppose my brave stand is going to work out for me, especially if I get violent about it? Say I’m going through an air port security check, refuse to allow the authorities to check my bags, and when they try I pull out a large stick and start waling on them? What do you suppose might happen to me in that case? Would you be shocked if I somehow managed to get myself shot? > [@](#): > > But then, all of this assumes the activists hit/shot first, which has never been proven. No, actually, it doesn’t…all this assumes that they simply resisted the Israeli’s authority and refused to comply. If one does that then it’s really not a large surprise if things spin out of control in that situation, especially when the situation itself is so volatile…and so DELIBERATELY and artificially manufactured volatility. > [@](#): > > Let me be clear about one thing, I do not blame the soldiers. Well, that’s good I guess. > [@](#): > > This is just what happens when you send soldiers to do a non-violent job. Who would you have sent, considering who these folks were, the situation, the fact that they refused to comply with earlier requests for inspection and the unknown and possibly hostile nature and composition of the cargo? If they had sent over the Israeli equivalent of the Port Authority, do you suppose those folks wouldn’t have been armed as well?? And, if they were attacked (physically or verbally) in an emotionally charged situation as this clearly was, what do you suppose would have been the difference in outcome? Possibly the same number of deaths but perhaps more Israeli’s dead instead? And would that have been better, or would it have justified things in the minds of those who are already clearly anti-Israel?? Considering how this has played out in this thread alone, what would the benefit have been to Israel to do things in this manner? I mean, do you suppose that those who are knee jerking against this whole stinkingly set up incident would somehow have magically given Israel a pass on this had it played out that way?? Seriously? > [@](#): > > The responsibility is on the shoulders of the command, and on the world for allowing this situation to go on as it has. Again I ask, why is the responsibility not on the shoulders of those who deliberately provoked this incident?? If not all of the responsibility, how about SOME of it? A bit? Any? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/538 "2010-06-01T23:53:07Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Fine: **Damuri Ajashi** dug it up in the process of responding to posts from 24 hours ago, and you resumed discussion of what “flattening” is or isn’t even though a few hours ago you said you wouldn’t do that. > It didn’t work, since **Capt. Riddley’s Shooting Party**"had " to respond to your response. You, **Damuri Ajashi** and **Capt. Ridley’s Shooting Party** are not to post about this tangent again. Any of you. OK. Can I talk about the tactic of beating someone up over an overstatement or inaccuracy that was clarified pages ago because I don’t really think it proves anything whether a bomb was dropped in lebanon or not but it seems to me that Capt. clarified his position pages and pages ago and yet he gets warned right along with Finn? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/539 "2010-06-01T23:58:57Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Can I talk about the tactic of beating someone up over an overstatement or inaccuracy that was clarified pages ago because I don’t really think it proves anything whether a bomb was dropped in lebanon or not but it seems to me that Capt. clarified his position pages and pages ago and yet he gets warned right along with Finn? It’s time to move on and get back to the topic. If you have a personal issue with how **FinnAgain** handled that argument you should discuss it with him or start a Pit thread. If you have a question about how the mods handled it, go to ATMB. For the record, neither of them was formally warned. Those posts were mod notes. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/540 "2010-06-02T00:05:44Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > What do you think that they were doing, exactly? Advancing on someone brandishing a knife is a symbol of what, exactly, in your interpretation? Clubbing someone with a crowbar or steel pipe is a symbol of what, exactly, in your interpretation? They were in the middle of the sea. How do you land commandoes on that boat and then accuse the people on the boat of picking the fight? Perhaps they were asking for it when they declared they were going to run the blockade. Israel says that they were acting in self defense when they tried to maintain the blockade by keeping out the humanitarian aid by sending commandoes because they couldn’t be sure that it was really humanitarian aid. Do the people on the boat have no right of self defense or does everyone have to throw up their hands when the IDF shows up? > [@](#): > > Cites have already been provided showing that you are wrong. Blockade runners are not immune from a blockade simply by flying a flag. Sorry, I’m running a little behind. Your cites seem to show that Israel was not breaking international law by stopping blockade runners. If I have stated that Israel was breaking international law by taking military action to stop blockade runners then I retract that statement until someone can show that Israel was breaking international law. With that said, Turkey seems pissed about the whole thing. not a good development for anyone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=28)