# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/561 "2010-06-02T03:36:36Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > [http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/story.html?id=3094801](http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/story.html?id=3094801) > > [http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/6044639/peace-convoy-this-was-an-islamist-terror-ambush.thtml](http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/6044639/peace-convoy-this-was-an-islamist-terror-ambush.thtml) What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/562 "2010-06-02T03:38:22Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You’re a Nazi. Well, we got that out of the way. I’m going to assume that this was an attempt at humor, but given the level of tension and hostility in this thread, I will point out that it was a very ill-considered effort. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/563 "2010-06-02T03:39:10Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Are you in some sort of time warp reading this thread, late? You keep responding to posts that are days old. Yeah sorry about that. this thread got really long really quick. Normally, you don’t need to log on every single day to keep up with a thread but this is really going quick. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/564 "2010-06-02T03:41:10Z")
Smilie when you say that, pardner… ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/565 "2010-06-02T03:41:49Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **PAY ATTENTION**. This morning **FinnAgain** and **Capt. Riddley’s Shooting Party** were told to drop this tangent seven hours ago in post #345. It had already gone on much too long. You have been told _twice_ not to revive it - by me in post #455 and at about the same time by **tomndebb** in post #464. You need to read all the way to the end of a thread before you post; you’re now responding to something **FinnAgain** said ten hours and three pages ago. Sorry I’m trying to catch up. I wasn’t trying to revive the Lebanon issue, I was criticizing a poster’s method of argument. I’ll read through the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/566 "2010-06-02T03:53:24Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > No, they don’t have any right to “self defence” in this situation. If you are willing to assume that the blockade is legitimate, they do not have the right to attack the soldiers who were doing nothing but enforcing that blockade. Just like if you’re breaking the law, you have no right to “self defence” against a police officer who tries to arrest you. I must have misread the link provided by Finn Again. I thought that Israel was permitted to act in international waters (in the case of obvious blockade runners) but I didn’t read the part that said that everyone had to throw up their hands when Israel told them to. If Turkey sends warships to escort the next flotilla, do the warships have to obey and abide by Israel’s blockade? I think the link only means that Israel isn’t breaking the rules of war by attacking blockade runners in international water. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/567 "2010-06-02T03:55:22Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Is there some reason you presuppose the ‘innocence’ of the boarding troops? Yes: [ul] [li]They had nothing to gain by instigating a riot, when boarding a peaceful ship would get them what they wanted without casualties.[/li][li]They had boarded the other boats and made no attempt to instigate any form of armed resistence.[/li][li]They had not done anything to suggest a lack of respect for the authority of the Geneva Convention or their rules of engagement, while the flotilla was currently engaged in an attempt to break a legitimate blockade.[/li][/ul] > [@](#): > > Do you have proof that they did not provoke a response in some way? You’re the one making extraordinary claims, _you_ provide the proof. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think it bears repeating that Israel doesn’t have a “right” to board ships. Its just not illegal or a war crime to do it. This claim has no basis in reality. We’re not talking about some rare event that nobody has gotten around to banning, it’s a legal right _explicitly_ and _deliberately_ granted by the Geneva Convention. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/568 "2010-06-02T03:56:35Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Oh, good point! And they would have known that because they could have used their magical detectors to determine that ahead of time, right? Well, you got me there. > > -XT Oh, I dunno. They might have placed some reliance on Turkey. Its possible, I suppose, that Turkey took an entirely lackadaisical approach to the whole subject of what went on board that ship, loading in their waters, bound for Israel. “What’s this? Oh, _sewing machine parts_! (wink wink). Go right ahead…” Don’t think thats very likely, myself, tend to think the Israelis pretty much knew that there were no weapons aboard, and that the shipment was pretty much (you should forgive the expression) kosher. In that it did, in fact, consist of non-military aid, “humanitarian”. Have you any reason to believe otherwise, beyond the intuition that supports your “had ‘guilty’ written in large, bold letters all over them…” surmise? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/569 "2010-06-02T03:58:00Z")
[QUOTE=XaMcQ] Could somebody tell me if there was an earlier, less aggressive attempt to stop these ships, beyond just verbal warnings, or did they jump straight from ‘stop now’ to a nighttime commando raid? [/QUOTE] I think Finn has answered this one several times already, but the short answer is yes…several attempts were made, including a request that the entire flotilla stop at an Israeli port for inspection. The Israeli’s didn’t simply sit around saying nothing until they fleet was in range so they could pounce on it. > [@](#): > > Isn’t there something else that might have been tried first, maybe in the daytime? Since the ships had already refused to comply with the Israeli orders and warnings, maybe you could give your thoughts on what you think Israel should have done? > [@](#): > > Clearly, the activists were trying to provoke some kind of incident, to attract media attention, but Israel’s response seems to me almost tailor-made to cause things to go completely pear-shaped. Pretty much, though again I’m unsure what Israel could have done that wouldn’t have been a negative for them. They were basically in a no-win situation. They could continue to send requests to the ships to heave to and comply or head to a port, which were already being ignored and would have continued to make them look ineffective. Or, they could have let the ships sail on to the port, which would have broken the blockade and made them look ineffective. Or they could have attempted a daylight boarding, which probably would have worked out the same way, since it’s fairly clear that these guys were trying to provoke such an incident (whether it was day light or not), but might have resulted in more casualties on both sides. Which of these scenarios do you perceive would have been a win for the Israeli’s?? They were fucked any way they turned. It is similar to a hostage crisis where the hostage takers are killing a hostage every 5 minutes unless you comply with their demands. If you go in and try and free the hostages, some will die and you’ll get blamed. If you don’t do anything, some will die and you’ll be blamed. If you cave into their demands then you will be crucified for caving into their demands, especially if people have already been killed. You are, to be blunt, fucked no matter what you do. > [@](#): > > Why at night, when it is harder to see what is happening and more likely to provoke fear and panic? Because at night you might be able to use the element of surprise and superior military gear and (slim chance) cow the opposition without a fight. It worked well on all but one ship after all, right? The thing is, the Israeli’s didn’t have hindsight and Monday morning quarterback skills to know what was going to happen, or what exactly was on board, or what exactly they were facing, or how things would turn out. Instead, they actually had to make a call and try to execute a plan without the benefit of our 'doper godlike ability to judge after the fact. And there was little or nothing they could have done that would have been right in the minds of many of the people in this thread. Any action they could actually take (no including caving in, which wasn’t really an option) would have condemned them in the eyes of The World™ in general, and a large percentage of this message board in particular. I’m sure it saddened the Israeli’s to think that many 'dopers would disapprove of their actions, that they were no the less able to push on through with great fortitude anyway. > [@](#): > > Was there really no better way to go about stopping this ship? Well, they did everything save direct firing on the ships and nothing seemed to be working, so I guess they COULD have fired into the ships to get them to heave too. I’m unsure how this would have promoted a more positive outcome, however. I can’t really think of anything they could have done differently to get those ships to stop that they didn’t try, but if you have a thought on it I’m all ears. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/570 "2010-06-02T04:03:22Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Don’t think thats very likely, myself, tend to think the Israelis pretty much knew that there were no weapons aboard, and that the shipment was pretty much (you should forgive the expression) kosher. In that it did, in fact, consist of non-military aid, “humanitarian”. That’s probably true, but as a rule, governments don’t operate on the “trust me” principle. When I go to the airport, I have to go through the metal detector, even if I promise I don’t have a gun or bomb. Israel’s still going to want to inspect the cargo, even if the people on the boats pinky swear they don’t have anything they’re not supposed to. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/571 "2010-06-02T04:03:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Now there’s an ironic statement. 😃 I’m just saying that the stakes seem to getting higher and higher. The US is getting painted into a corner because we cannot let the whole world dogpile on Israel despite the fact that Israel seems to be a bit contemptuous of the US right now. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/572 "2010-06-02T04:05:41Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Though I know it’s futile in the face of such militant stubbornness, and just to be clear here, the Israeli’s have EXACTLY the same authority to stop these ships and inspect them as the police have to pull you over. I think you are reading too much into Finn Again’s link. I think Finn’s link proves taht Israel didn’t break international law when it did what it did but I don’t think Israel is exercising police power, they are exercising military power. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/573 "2010-06-02T04:08:45Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Oh, I dunno. They might have placed some reliance on Turkey. Its possible, I suppose, that Turkey took an entirely lackadaisical approach to the whole subject of what went on board that ship, loading in their waters, bound for Israel. [/QUOTE] If they had nothing to hide on the ships, why not heave to and allow the inspection? As for Turkey, I would certainly trust them, assuming that Turkey officially inspected all the cargo and would offer assurances that no contraband was loaded at any time onto those ships. Do you have any evidence that Turkey was ready to offer official and iron clad assurances that there was no contraband on those ships and that they had kept the ships under surveillance from the time they left port until they were picked up by Israeli surveillance? > [@](#): > > “What’s this? Oh, sewing machine parts! (wink wink). Go right ahead…” And you presume that your assertion here is far fetched because…? Or that no cargo could have been transshipped after leaving port why, exactly? > [@](#): > > Don’t think thats very likely, myself, tend to think the Israelis pretty much knew that there were no weapons aboard, and that the shipment was pretty much (you should forgive the expression) kosher. And what do you base this incredible assertion on?? Just pulling this from your nether regions, or do you have some basis to think that the Israeli’s actually knew there was no weapons on board, and…what? > [@](#): > > Have you any reason to believe otherwise, beyond the intuition that supports your “had ‘guilty’ written in large, bold letters all over them…” surmise? Well, I have the fact that the ships were ACTING like they were guilty. They refused to be inspected, refused to heave to, and continued on even after warning shots were fired across their bows. Granted, none of this is definitive proof, but it SEEMS to be at least a bit fishy, wouldn’t you say? So, what have YOU got, beyond your own intuition that these folks were as pure as the driven snow and had ‘angel’ written large, in bold letters all over them, to give you back your own hyperbole? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/574 "2010-06-02T04:09:38Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > Here are some questions for you - why were there only crew member deaths and serious injuries on the boat that there is video of crew members beating commandos? Is the allegation that Israel shot at all six ships and only got a violent response from one of them or did the commandos refrain from firing on five of the ships and arbitrarily decide to fire on the sixth and last ship to check their weapons? I think it might be because the other ships only had supplies and crew and maybe a handful of activists/aid workers. The Maru had all the people (something like 600 people. > [@](#): > > There does not appear to be any “storyline” that the deaths were a screw-up on the part of the commandos, only that they are regretable and probably could have been prevented if either the ship’s crew members did not forcibly resist the commandos or if the commandos had been better prepared for a violent response. Some in Israel are calling for the defense minister to resign for the latter. There is a sh\*tstorm coming and firing the defense minister isn’t going to stop it. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/575 "2010-06-02T04:11:44Z")
[QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi] I think you are reading too much into Finn Again’s link. I think Finn’s link proves taht Israel didn’t break international law when it did what it did but I don’t think Israel is exercising police power, they are exercising military power [/QUOTE] You misunderstood my point. I wasn’t saying they were exercising ‘police power’, I’m saying they exercised lawful authority. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/576 "2010-06-02T04:14:31Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I’m going to assume that this was an attempt at humor, but given the level of tension and hostility in this thread, I will point out that it was a very ill-considered effort. > > [/Modding] Hrmm, I thought I was being funny. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/577 "2010-06-02T04:15:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Smilie when you say that, pardner… You must be a Nazi 😃 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/578 "2010-06-02T04:26:23Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > …As for Turkey, I would certainly trust them, assuming that Turkey officially inspected all the cargo …pulling this from your nether regions, or do you have some basis to think that the Israeli’s actually knew there was no weapons on board, and…what? … Oh, I dunno. How about this? > **[Q&A: Aid and Israel's Gaza blockade - CNN.com](https://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/01/flotilla.questions/index.html)** > > The deaths of several people Monday during a raid by Israeli soldiers on a flotilla bringing aid to Palestinians in Gaza has once again brought worldwide attention on Israel's blockade of the area. > [@](#): > > …The Turkish prime minister said Monday that the vessels were inspected before they left port in Turkey to make sure the cargo did not include weapons… ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/579 "2010-06-02T04:35:36Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Since the ships had already refused to comply with the Israeli orders and warnings, maybe you could give your thoughts on what you think Israel should have done? Stop the blockade, go back to 1967 borders, resolve the refugee problem. > [@](#): > > Pretty much, though again I’m unsure what Israel could have done that wouldn’t have been a negative for them. Don’t start in the first place. > [@](#): > > I can’t really think of anything they could have done differently to get those ships to stop that they didn’t try, but if you have a thought on it I’m all ears. Someone mentioned taking out their propellors and rudder. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/580 "2010-06-02T04:43:01Z")
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