# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/41 "2010-05-31T11:10:36Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Oh, the organizers did a brilliant job, I’ll give them that. But it was a lose-lose situation on Israel’s behalf. If they had just let them through the Arabs would have won just as big a victory - only then they might also have missiles. All in all, Israel’s chosen action was the least of all possible evils. As brilliant as you suggest they are, I’m sure the flotilla organizers wouldn’t have been bringing in any missiles. But there is no way that Israel can ever not have not missiles _somewhere_ just beyond its borders. (This same is true for most countries.) The way for Israel to be secure and peaceful is to get along with its neighbors. From that point of view, I can’t see how the present incident has done anything but increase the danger to Israelis. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/42 "2010-05-31T11:23:25Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Not really as those people wouldn’t be coming at the armed soldiers at all if the armed soldiers hadn’t attacked … with live ammunition. Yours is a classic case of blaming the victim. But if the soldiers had come with the intention of firing live ammunition, why even get off the helicopter? Just fire away from above, well out of knife range. The fact that they exposed themselves to danger proves that they weren’t there for a gunfight. > [@spark240](#): > > The way for Israel to be secure and peaceful is to get along with its neighbors. Most Israelis believe (and with good cause) that its neighbors aren’t interested in getting along with them. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/43 "2010-05-31T11:26:58Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > But if the soldiers had come with the intention of firing live ammunition, why even get off the helicopter? Just fire away from above, well out of knife range. The fact that they exposed themselves to danger proves that they weren’t there for a gunfight. The fact that they arrived there with live ammunition shows that they were there for a gunfight. Which all ultimately leads to this: if Israel wasn’t treating Gaza like a concentration camp and didn’t have such bizarre and random attitudes towards aid being allowed in then none of this would have happened. There would have been no need for an aid convoy if aid can get in via other channels. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/44 "2010-05-31T11:28:40Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Most Israelis believe (and with good cause) that its neighbors aren’t interested in getting along with them. Indeed, you’ve got a lot of work to do. That’s no reason to shoot yourself in the foot. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/45 "2010-05-31T11:30:10Z")
Just to be clear, this did take place 90 miles out into the Mediterranean. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/46 "2010-05-31T11:30:24Z")
I’d say that they have a lot of work to do, too. Peace requires two sides. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/47 "2010-05-31T11:35:17Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’d say that they have a lot of work to do, too. Peace requires two sides. Well, your side is killing you. Let me put it this way–are the people of Lebanon, Syria, the Palestinian territories, Jordan and Egypt, as an aggregate, _more_ or _less_ interested in getting along with Israel today than they were yesterday? What made the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/48 "2010-05-31T11:41:21Z")
I don’t know. If the blockade had been broken, Hamas equipped itself with tons of weaponry, launched an attack on Israel and forced Israel to respond - would things be any better? Look, if Israel hurts Arabs then Arabs hate Israel more, because we look evil. If Arabs hurt Israelis then Arabs also hate Israel more, because we look weak. With Arabs, both positive and negative reinforcement has \*exactly \*the same effect - making war is a sign of cruelty and making peace is a sign of weakness. We can’t win, so the only thing we can do is look after our own interests and hope that eventually our neighbors decide to look after their own. Anyway, this debate seems to be veering into a boilerplate SDMB Arab/Israeli debate, something I find as boring as fuck. Let’s stick to the matter at hand, shall we? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/49 "2010-05-31T11:45:40Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > The fact that they arrived there with live ammunition shows that they were there for a gunfight. No, it shows that they were prepared for the possibility of a gunfight. You don’t assume a cop is out for your blood just because he’s armed, do you? ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/50 "2010-05-31T11:49:51Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > No, it shows that they were prepared for the possibility of a gunfight. You don’t assume a cop is out for your blood just because he’s armed, do you? Usually the cop has a legitimate reason for being there. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/51 "2010-05-31T11:58:24Z")
The soldiers believed they had a legitimate reason for being there. You, obviously, disagree. Everyone’s entitled to their opinion. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/52 "2010-05-31T12:12:02Z")
It doesn’t matter what the soldiers “believed”; they are employed to do a job regardless of what they believe. The only sort of person who could possibly agree with Israel’s actions here, is someone who has a vested interest in protecting Israel’s good name. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/53 "2010-05-31T12:17:34Z")
So in your narrow-mindedness, you are automatically precluding any chance of debate. Thanks for stopping by. Now go away. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/54 "2010-05-31T12:32:07Z")
What do you want to “debate”, the rights and wrongs of boarding a ship 90 miles into international waters carrying humanitarian aid and killing ten unarmed passengers? Tell me, is there any action taken by the state of Israel you won’t defend? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/55 "2010-05-31T12:35:57Z")
Is there any action taken by the State of Israel that you would? ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/56 "2010-05-31T12:37:51Z")
Yes, including the right to defend itself. But this isn’t about me. It’s about you defending the indefesible. Yet again. What exactly wouldn’t you defend ? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/57 "2010-05-31T12:38:22Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > What do you want to “debate”, the rights and wrongs of boarding a ship 90 miles into international waters carrying humanitarian aid and killing ten unarmed passengers? Well, the Israelis _were_ a little more restrained than the North Koreans. Perhaps the world should be thankful for that? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/58 "2010-05-31T12:40:48Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > So in your narrow-mindedness, you are automatically precluding any chance of debate. > > Thanks for stopping by. Now go away. _I’m_ narrow-minded? You and others like you are the ones who can’t see anything unless it reflects Israel in a good light. You are the same person who started out insisting that Israel had nothing to do with an assassination in another country, then later, when it was looking more and more likely that Israel had done it, turned around and tried to claim it as a success and a good thing because it was better to take out one enemy than to wage a war, or some such shit. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/59 "2010-05-31T12:44:28Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Well, the Israelis _were_ a little more restrained than the North Koreans. Perhaps the world should be thankful for that? That’s like praising a heroin addict for saying, “Well, at least I don’t do PCP.” ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/60 "2010-05-31T12:45:16Z")
They’ve got to do it you see, else they will be “pushed back into the sea”, and other 1970-era bullshit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=4)