# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/581 "2010-06-02T04:47:34Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Stop the blockade The same position as the blockade runners, and the same reason that they weren’t simple aid workers but people involved in trying to end a defensive military blockade. Saying that the blockade should simply be stopped, not modified, not retooled, not ameliorated, but ended completely is to say that Hamas should be given the ability to import weapons immediately. This is not a plan for peace, but war. Denying that Israel has any right to self defense makes it quite clear that the argument is not about how best to balance Israel’s need for self defense with the Gazans’ standard of living. Instead, the argument is about how to remove Israel’s ability to engage in self defense while using the pretext of humanitarian concerns as a battering ram. This is the truly jabberwockian nature of the situation: “Let Hamas arm itself to the teeth, for peace!” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/582 "2010-06-02T04:50:00Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > No, they don’t have any right to “self defence” in this situation. If you are willing to assume that the blockade is legitimate, they do not have the right to attack the soldiers who were doing nothing but enforcing that blockade. Just like if you’re breaking the law, you have no right to “self defence” against a police officer who tries to arrest you. I think you misunderstand Finn Again’s link. The blockade doesn’t suddenly give Israel extraterritorial police powers. Finn’s link just proves that Israel wasn’t breaking international law when they went into international waters to enforce their blockade. This doesn’t mean that anyone that tries to run the blockade is breaking some kind of law. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/583 "2010-06-02T04:55:18Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > You misunderstood my point. I wasn’t saying they were exercising ‘police power’, I’m saying they exercised lawful authority. > > -XT Oh, I thought you meant police power when you said they had the same authority as the police. It seemed like some people are confused on this point. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/584 "2010-06-02T05:09:13Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Is there some reason you presuppose the ‘innocence’ of the boarding troops? > Do you have proof that they did not provoke a response in some way? > Given the storyline that the killings were the result of a big screwup on the part of the troops, how do you _know_ precisely when that screwup started? > Or didn’t the boarders screw up all? There is a certain level of logic involved. None of the other ships had problems (precedence) and Israel stands to lose politically in such an incident. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/585 "2010-06-02T05:14:29Z")
I’m trying desperately to find a silver lining in all of this and the only one I can find is that perhaps the Palestinian will realize that while they will likely die just the same, the effect and impact of provoking the IDF to commit atrocities will convince the world that Israel is wrong while committing atrocities themselves (e.g. suicide bombing) will only convince the world that they are wrong. Seriously, haven’t they heard of Gandhi in Palestine? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/586 "2010-06-02T05:26:03Z")
Ghandi like tactics depend on the presumed morality of the oppressor, that he can be shamed. This “blockade run” is an example of such, in my estimation. As such, it depends on the basic decency of Israel to be effective. I think that faith is well-placed, the Palestinians of Gaza appear to have a less sanguine view. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/587 "2010-06-02T05:31:47Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > The quoted post was in response to this from **Babale** : > > It was not intended to satisfy legal definitions or whatnot. It was designed to enlighten the poster that seemed to genuinely believe that the Israelis have not been affecting power and water supply to the Gaza Strip. I’m sorry to post this now, as I am still catching up on the thread. However, I must answer this: I do not think that Israel has NOT been affecting the power and water. I DO think that Israel COULD completely (literally) and permanently cut all input of power and water from Israel to Gaza, at which point the Gazans would suffer much more. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/588 "2010-06-02T06:06:42Z")
There is a pretty strong case that the Israeli blockade ,as it stands, violates international law because of its indiscriminate and arbitrary nature and the enormous civilian suffering that it causes. There is also the issue of whether Israeli is still legally the occupying power in Gaza and has the right to impose a blockade. AFAIK no international body or court and few, if any, governments have accepted Israel’s arguments for the legality of the blockade. Given this reality the flotilla had every right to challenge the blockade and defend themselves when attacked in international waters. On a pragmatic level this was probably not wise given the Israeli military’s history of excessive force and brutality but from a legal perspective I think they have a strong case. ---
**Author:** ![Mogle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mogle/32/12021_2.png) [@Mogle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mogle)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/589 "2010-06-02T06:08:12Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > If they had nothing to hide on the ships, why not heave to and allow the inspection? Was Israel going to let them head in to Gaza after being inspected? I was under the impression that Israel wanted to offload the cargo in Ashdod and transport it over land to Gaza(presumably after removing the aid they don’t approve of). And as noted earlier in the thread what Israel will allow into Gaza is somewhat arbitrary and there isn’t even any published official list of what is/isn’t allowed. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/590 "2010-06-02T06:25:24Z")
> [@Mogle](#): > > … and there isn’t even any published official list of what is/isn’t allowed. Didn’t see the previous, if you cited it then, could you do so again? Not any snarky implication, its just soooo WTF as to give me pause. As in, seriously? ---
**Author:** ![Mogle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mogle/32/12021_2.png) [@Mogle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mogle)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/591 "2010-06-02T06:35:11Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Didn’t see the previous, if you cited it then, could you do so again? Not any snarky implication, its just soooo WTF as to give me pause. As in, seriously? I’m not the one who originally cited, sorry if I gave that impression. It was **amanset** , here it is > [@amanset](#): > > A little bit of insight into the blockade: > > [BBC News - Details of Gaza blockade revealed in court case](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8654337.stm) ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/592 "2010-06-02T06:46:01Z")
This other [page](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm)on the BBC is the best I have found on the nature and impact of the blockade on different aspects of civilian life: food, fuel, electricity, medical supplies etc. It’s pretty clear the blockade is about far more than weapons; it severely damages every aspect of civilian life in Gaza and is a form of collective punishment against the Gaza population. That suggests the blockade is illegal and of course it has been spectacularly unsuccessful when it comes to undermining the political power of Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/593 "2010-06-02T06:55:16Z")
Of course the blockade is about collective punishment; it’s the same principle as camp authorities restricting rations to increase compliance and subordination. This isn’t exactly breaking news. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/594 "2010-06-02T07:02:53Z")
Well collective punishment is a war crime under international law. If we accept that the blockade is a form of collective punishment, it is definitely illegal. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/595 "2010-06-02T07:04:55Z")
Sherlock, is that you? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/596 "2010-06-02T07:12:36Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Well, I have the fact that the ships were ACTING like they were guilty. They refused to be inspected, refused to heave to, and continued on even after warning shots were fired across their bows. Granted, none of this is definitive proof, but it SEEMS to be at least a bit fishy, wouldn’t you say? > > -XT If they’d really, really, really wanted to sneak weapons in via a humanitarian aid flotilla, and that boat was the one carrying them - and knowingly at that - do you think those commandos would have even reached the deck without being blown away? This making surmises game is fun. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/597 "2010-06-02T07:33:52Z")
> [@XaMcQ](#): > > Why at night, when it is harder to see what is happening and more likely to provoke fear and panic? Why arm commandos with paint guns? Aren’t they more likely to start firing with non-lethal guns, especially on a group that is at the very least emotionally charged, and probably hostile? And are the activists, seeing the commandos raising their guns and firing at them, supposed to know that those are paint guns, what with all the tear gas and flash grenades and screaming, shoving, pushing and pandemonium happening, or is it reasonable to think they are being shot at by real guns and react with knives and crowbars or whatever? > > Some dopers with marine and military and law enforcement knowledge please enlighten me. Was there really no better way to go about stopping this ship? I asked on another forum regarding the paint ball guns, seems that the loads are not just standard paintballs, but infused with pepper. They tend to be well regarded for dealing with rioters, my original thought was these were a socom variation on the standard paint ball gun that had the air pressure dialed up, so instead of simply getting a slap , you get donkey punched. However I have no idea what was in the Israeli variation. My opinion on what they should have done was to have multiple helicopters, if they were going to do a vertical insertion, the amount of time it took for the navy guys to get onto the ship seemed way too long, when you could have fast roped four guys to hit the deck at the same time, followed up with the second or third choppers to invest the boarding party. While the idea of the less than lethal approach using the paintball guns sounds nice, the video showed that the individuals on the ship, had access to um, ships inventory, for resisting a boarding action. Had the navy guys popped in with M-16’s and the like, it may have given enough pause with the resisting individuals, for the navy to have contained the situation and allowed a more orderly law enforcement operation, rather than having their ROE used against them. It probably wont happen, but the captain of that ship should be tried in Admiralty court, as well as the individuals who resisted and are still alive. As it is, the blockade is probably toast at this point. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/598 "2010-06-02T07:43:17Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Yes. By all means, there should be investigation. Any and all available video, from all possible sources, should be closely examined, particularly looking to verify who attacked who first, and with what sort of weapon. All the audio in these videos should be examined by interpreters at the UN. It would be good if they got the real mission planning, but I won’t hold my breath. It is too easy to withhold, or doctor. “Proceed with caution and skepticism”. Likewise, if there is only one “official:” video, proceed with caution and skepticism. If there are multiple videos from multiple sources, and they are not just copies of each other, they can be compared - different groups can and will “edit” for their own spin. Well the Israeli’s have pretty well made sure that can’t happen since they confiscated all of the camera equipment and tapes from the Press crews on board. I’m wondering were there any US press on board the ships following the story since there were American activists involved? What are the US press saying about the US reporters tapes being confiscated? Are they demanding them back? Surely the US press ( I know the US people have been asleep the last month but surely the their press) were aware that this war was about to erupt? surely…😕 Please don’t tell me that there were no US press on board these ships. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/599 "2010-06-02T07:46:16Z")
Why would US media want to go out of its way to report from activists pov in relation to Israel? It might when it has to but it’s not going to go looking. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/600 "2010-06-02T08:06:13Z")
> [@XaMcQ](#): > > Could somebody tell me if there was an earlier, less aggressive attempt to stop these ships, beyond just verbal warnings, or did they jump straight from ‘stop now’ to a nighttime commando raid? Isn’t there something else that might have been tried first, maybe in the daytime? Clearly, the activists were trying to provoke some kind of incident, to attract media attention, but Israel’s response seems to me almost tailor-made to cause things to go completely pear-shaped. > > Why at night, when it is harder to see what is happening and more likely to provoke fear and panic? Why arm commandos with paint guns? Aren’t they more likely to start firing with non-lethal guns, especially on a group that is at the very least emotionally charged, and probably hostile? And are the activists, seeing the commandos raising their guns and firing at them, supposed to know that those are paint guns, what with all the tear gas and flash grenades and screaming, shoving, pushing and pandemonium happening, or is it reasonable to think they are being shot at by real guns and react with knives and crowbars or whatever? > > Some dopers with marine and military and law enforcement knowledge please enlighten me. Was there really no better way to go about stopping this ship? What actually happened and from the last reports from the reporters before the Israeli’s showed up was the reporters said that they had recieved messages from the IDF not to continue forward. The reporter stated on camera that the organisers decided to switch off the engines and at that time a lot of the activists were below decks asleep. He said that they did not intend to carry on sailing in the dark. Obviously this went out on Israeli media too and the IDF decided I suspect to board whilst the occupants were asleep. The reporter said on camera that the ship would continue at day break in full light so they could see. So engines were switched off, activists were below decks trying to sleep, crew were on deck in shifts. He then gave the co ordinates of the ship which was I think 82 miles? I can’t remember. Then the IDF turned up in boats and helicopters. Organisers woke the passengers and asked them to put on lifejackets. They overpowered the small vessels carrying up to 15 passengers quickly. The large Mavi Marmara was attacked by commando’s. Crew and passengers were seen on camera smashing the fire equipment and grabbing the axes and knocking the axes from the wooden staves in one shot. They used the staves, and metal rods from the deck to defend themselves from what they thought was gunfire. remember these passengers have probably never been close to a gun, with the exception of the American members so a loud bang from a thing that looks like a machine gun would seem to them to be them being shot at with live rounds. Luckily they were all wearing life jackets and the paint balls had no effect so they started to fire at their faces one reporter caught on camera said. This was all going out live here remember. The crew and passengers defended themselves from what they thought was live fire, one overpowered a commando and grabbed his gun. He did not shoot at the commando obviously or he would be dead . The IDF seeing that the paintballs were having no effect with the life jackets, and the crew and passengers during the bangs and melee carried on defending themsleves until the commandos opened live rounds and killed 2 of the passengers. Live on camera the reporter said the white flag was raised BEFORE the commandos got on board. This was on camera live and shows the flag flapping. He reported the flag was raised and then commandos attacked with the what they thought were machine guns. During the massacre and I will call it massacre!, the reporter said tear gas was being used and some of the injured on deck had what he thought was blood on the lifejackets. The commandoes used RED paint balls and the passengers were confused as to injuries and removed clothing to find no injury??? Then when they switched to live rounds the blood began to flow. That was all going out live on camera. That is what the press crews will say when they return home. Luckily Al Jazeera and Press TV were broadcasting it all live. I have no idea what the US press crews on board have broadcast to the US, but I would imagine it would tally. What you have to imagine is if you were one of the passengers, and hearing shots being fired from what look like machine guns and having probably never seen a gun up close, what would you think and do. Then seeing what we now know are red paintballs exploding on life jackets!!! What seriously would you have done? Pick up the nearest thing to you and defend yourself or not? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=31)