# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/601 "2010-06-02T08:16:11Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > This is a good point. I suppose it has something to do with the whole “I don’t want those refugees in my country” attitude. What will Egypt do now? Will they try to screen for Hamas? You just don’t get it do you. The Gazans DON’T want to leave their land. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/602 "2010-06-02T08:42:18Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > If they had nothing to hide on the ships, why not heave to and allow the inspection? As for Turkey, I would certainly trust them, assuming that Turkey officially inspected all the cargo and would offer assurances that no contraband was loaded at any time onto those ships. Do you have any evidence that Turkey was ready to offer official and iron clad assurances that there was no contraband on those ships and that they had kept the ships under surveillance A full inventory was given to the Israeli’s. Turkey customs inspected every single item. It was stated by Turkish customs that what was on board was what was on the inventory. The problem is Israel does not allow cement, construction materials, powdered coffee, oranges, chocolate, water treatment equipment, fresh meat (only frozen or canned), etc etc etc etc etc. Only last month they have allowed clothes and shoes. All this stuff was brought in through the tunnels. Mineral water was only allowed in since February 2010, they added Tahini (sesame paste) in March. To take the cargo to Ashdod the Israeli’s would have banned 3/4 of it, that is why they decided to break the seige and deliver it to the shore of Gaza. Current list 2010 of items allowed. Anything not on that list has to come via tunnels. ``` 1st half 2009 ``` 1 wheat 1st half 2009 2 animal feed 1st half 2009 3 flour 1st half 2009 4 cooking oil 1st half 2009 5 cooking fat 1st half 2009 6 sugar 1st half 2009 7 salt 1st half 2009 8 pasta 1st half 2009 9 dates 1st half 2009 10 garlic 1st half 2009 11 chick peas 1st half 2009 12 rice 1st half 2009 13 beans 1st half 2009 14 lentils 1st half 2009 15 kidney beans 1st half 2009 16 margarine 1st half 2009 17 dairy products 1st half 2009 18 powdered milk 1st half 2009 19 frozen meat and fish 1st half 2009 20 frozen vegetables 1st half 2009 21 animal medicines 1st half 2009 22 gas for medical use 1st half 2009 23 empty bags for flour 1st half 2009 24 medicines and medical equipment 1st half 2009 25 female hygiene products 1st half 2009 26 nappies (diapers) 1st half 2009 27 toilet paper 1st half 2009 28 detergent 1st half 2009 29 washing liquid 1st half 2009 30 shampoo 1st half 2009 31 soap 1st half 2009 32 toothpaste 1st half 2009 33 toothbrushes 1st half 2009 34 cleaning products for tiles 1st half 2009 35 cleaning products for glass 1st half 2009 36 toilet-cleaner 1st half 2009 37 yeast 1st half 2009 38 fertilised eggs 1st half 2009 39 fruit 1st half 2009 40 semolina 41 polythene for greenhouses June 2009 42 agricultural materials June 2009 43 tea October 2009 44 coffee October 2009 45 instant coffee November 2009 46 canned tuna November 2009 47 salami November 2009 48 canned meat November 2009 49 washing-up sponges November 2009 50 bath sponges November 2009 51 cloths for mopping the floor November 2009 52 baby wipes November 2009 53 other canned goods, with the exception of tinned fruit November 2009 54 zaatar (dried herb mix) November 2009 55 sesame seeds November 2009 56 black pepper November 2009 57 chicken stock powder November 2009 58 blankets November 2009 59 olives December 2009 60 matches December 2009 61 candles December 2009 62 sticks for brooms December 2009 63 rubbish bins December 2009 64 mops December 2009 65 hand-cleansing gel December 2009 66 aniseed December 2009 67 cinnamon December 2009 68 camomile December 2009 69 unfertilised eggs December 2009 70 glass (to a maximum of 200 trucks) December 2009 71 water-dispensers December 2009 72 potatoes December 2009 73 mineral water February 2010 74 tahini (sesame paste) March 2010 75 combs March 2010 76 hair brushes March 2010 77 clothes March 2010 78 shoes March 2010 79 wood (for doorposts and window frames) April 2010 80 aluminium April 2010 81 kitchenware April 2010 Just to add when they say fruit. That is changed daily. Some days they allow apples, other days they switch it to peaches and take the apples off. Dates are allowed any day of the week. If you think they allow all fruit then you are mistaken. It is what they decided that week or day that is allowed and that might just be a week of guava. As you can see the Gazans will not starve. They are undernourished. I’m sure you would all get a bit sick of eating penne pasta with kidney beans twice a week and rice and chick peas the rest of the week. Canned meats are too expensive to buy and are luxury items to most Gazans. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/603 "2010-06-02T08:54:11Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > … > > Both sides are generally covered in the UK newspapers as well. Some are quite pro-Israel and some are quite pro-Palestine. … Not something you can say about the US media. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/604 "2010-06-02T08:56:35Z")
Is the intention of the Israeli’s with these blockades and sanctions, to force Hamas into charging so much for the goods it needs to provide for its supporters, that they eventually revolt and destroy Hamas themselves? ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/605 "2010-06-02T08:59:26Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I’m sorry to post this now, as I am still catching up on the thread. However, I must answer this: I do not think that Israel has NOT been affecting the power and water. I DO think that Israel COULD completely (literally) and permanently cut all input of power and water from Israel to Gaza, at which point the Gazans would suffer much more. and Egypt could cut off all gas supply to Israel. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/606 "2010-06-02T09:04:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Hrmm, I thought I was being funny. As did I, the person being called a Nazi. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/607 "2010-06-02T09:07:42Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Ghandi like tactics depend on the presumed morality of the oppressor, that he can be shamed. This “blockade run” is an example of such, in my estimation. So far, so good > [@](#): > > … it depends on the basic decency of Israel to be effective. I think that faith is well-placed … If you would be so kind as to explain the logic underlying that proposition? ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/608 "2010-06-02T09:09:44Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Is the intention of the Israeli’s with these blockades and sanctions, to force Hamas into charging so much for the goods it needs to provide for its supporters, that they eventually revolt and destroy Hamas themselves? of course it is why else do you think all this is going on. The US asked for a democratic election in Gaza thinking Hamas would have no chance of winning. When the results of the democratic election came through Israel and the US would not accept the result. The people wanted Hamas and after the recent events they all seem now to realise that Hamas are right. The PA is nothing but a puppet of the US. Israel does not want peace, and the US is not and never will be an honest broker for peace. Amazing that a country currently in 2 wars, and with it’s tentacles in so many other conflicts is the major broker for peace. A joke right? Eyes are opening. It seems Hamas has been right all along and this event has only strengthened Hamas and most likely the Taliban and Al Qaeda too. This is a victory for Hamas make no mistake about it. It makes Khalid Meshaal look like Desmond Tutu. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/609 "2010-06-02T09:42:51Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > of course it is why else do you think all this is going on. Steady on, Padawan, I was just asking for confirmation. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/610 "2010-06-02T10:51:57Z")
The BBC has some quotes from people taken captive that have now been released: > **[Activists describe Israeli raid on Gaza aid convoy](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10206802)** > > Accounts from passengers on the deadly raid by Israeli soldiers on the Gaza aid convoy. Claims of detonations before the soldiers rappelled onto the boats: > [@](#): > > Speaking at a news conference in Berlin, he said the ship was surrounded by small Israeli assault boats on Monday morning at about 0430 local time. > > "Moments later, we heard detonations and then soldiers from helicopters above us dropped down on board. > [@](#): > > "They used smoke bombs followed by gas canisters. They started to descend onto the ship with helicopters. Claims of equipment confiscated and not returned. Equipment that probably has footage of what the Israelis did on them: > [@](#): > > "I was one of the first victims to be released because I had a child. They confiscated everything, our telephones, laptops are all gone. Claims of electric shock weapons: > [@](#): > > “They came up and used plastic bullets, we had beatings, we had electric shocks, any method we can think of, they used.” Claims of Israelis beating people on other boats as well: > [@](#): > > Aris Papadokostopoulos was aboard the Free Mediterranean, travelling behind the Mavi Marmara and carrying mainly Greek and Swedish activists. > "The Turkish ship [the Mavi Marmara] was in front of us… on which there was a terrible raid from the air and from the sea and from everywhere, with shooting. > > Mr Papadokostopoulos said that aboard the other boats, commandos beat activists but nobody was gravely injured. > > He said no one put up resistance on the Free Mediterranean, which was carrying a cargo of wheelchairs, building material and medical and pharmaceutical aid. > > “Some people were hit by clubs and electric shocks. During their interrogation, many of them were badly beaten in front of us,” he said. ---
**Author:** ![capeo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@capeo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capeo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/611 "2010-06-02T12:24:52Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > Without the full video anything can be happening here, it could be agent provacatuers that boarded the boat along with the comandos, you really have no way of knowing but once all of the activists get released we’ll hear more of the truth about the situation. Agent provocateurs? You’re kidding, right? That’s a little conspiracy theory over-the-topness I’d say. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/612 "2010-06-02T12:25:57Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Is the intention of the Israeli’s with these blockades and sanctions, to force Hamas into charging so much for the goods it needs to provide for its supporters, that they eventually revolt and destroy Hamas themselves? The (unspoken) goal of both Israel and Egypt was that the population will eventually kick the Hamas out, indeed. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/613 "2010-06-02T12:33:45Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > To take the cargo to Ashdod the Israeli’s would have banned 3/4 of it Bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/614 "2010-06-02T12:40:04Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, I dunno. They might have placed some reliance on Turkey. Its possible, I suppose, that Turkey took an entirely lackadaisical approach to the whole subject of what went on board that ship, loading in their waters, bound for Israel. > > “What’s this? Oh, _sewing machine parts_! (wink wink). Go right ahead…” > > Don’t think thats very likely, myself, tend to think the Israelis pretty much knew that there were no weapons aboard, and that the shipment was pretty much (you should forgive the expression) kosher. In that it did, in fact, consist of non-military aid, “humanitarian”. > > Have you any reason to believe otherwise, beyond the intuition that supports your “had ‘guilty’ written in large, bold letters all over them…” surmise? Why would Israel take any other country’s word (with the exception of maybe the USA) WRT shipping manifests for goods being shipped into an area like Gaza? Particularly a Muslim country? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/615 "2010-06-02T12:43:14Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > As of the government in Gaza… do you not agree with me that if the blockade is broken, Hamas will do whatever they can to procure weapons? And that those weapons will be used against Israel? Most certainly. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/616 "2010-06-02T12:50:49Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Why would Israel take any other country’s word (with the exception of maybe the USA) WRT shippitng manifests for goods being shipped into an area like Gaza? Particularly a Muslim country? If that’s the attitude that Israel takes, then why should ANY other country trust her? Why should any other country respect Israel and the “rules” that Israel wants to live by. In fact, if Israel wants to behave that way, isn’t it all the more reason to try and bust the blockade? And remember, we are talking Turkey here, a member of NATO and the EU, a country that is an active member of the international community, its not like we’re talking about North Korea. Or for that matter it’s not like we’re talking about a country that made an offer to sell nuclear weapons to an international outcast in contravention of an arms embargo. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/617 "2010-06-02T12:56:53Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > If that’s the attitude that Israel takes, then why should ANY other country trust her? You think other countries don’t inspect cargo coming from Israel? This is kind of ridiculous, although compared to the blockade itself it’s small potatoes. If they wanted to inspect the cargo, that’s not some kind of affront that makes them a rogue state. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/618 "2010-06-02T13:05:26Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You think other countries don’t inspect cargo coming from Israel? This is kind of ridiculous, although compared to the blockade itself it’s small potatoes. If they wanted to inspect the cargo, that’s not some kind of affront that makes them a rogue state. Er excuse me, but that’s not the assertion that was made. The assertion that was made, in effect, was that the MUSLEM Turkey would deliberately lie and purposely allow arms into Gaza. That’s a little bit different to inspecting cargo upon arrival you know. It doesn’t help to be deliberately mis-representing what was said, and I would have thought a moderator should know better. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/619 "2010-06-02T13:16:20Z")
I’m just trying to understand all sides of this issue. Its a fact that many, many Muslim people and nations hate Israel and Jews, and vice-versa I’m sure. Even if Turkey is a NATO member and considered somewhat Israel-friendly, does that place them outside the realm of possible collusion with fellow Muslims in Gaza, or Hamas? I’m just saying that given the history between Arab Muslims and Israeli Jews, neither side has given the other much reason to trust one another. Furthermore, inspection of shipping, as **Marley** notes, is a pretty standard affair across the globe, no matter the country of origin. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/620 "2010-06-02T13:23:20Z")
Just to note: Turks aren’t Arabs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=32)