# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/621 "2010-06-02T13:24:18Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > I’m just trying to understand all sides of this issue. Its a fact that many, many Muslim people and nations hate Israel and Jews, and vice-versa I’m sure. Even if Turkey is a NATO member and considered somewhat Israel-friendly, does that place them outside the realm of possible collusion with fellow Muslims in Gaza, or Hamas? > > I’m just saying that given the history between Arab Muslims and Israeli Jews, neither side has given the other much reason to trust one another. > > Furthermore, inspection of shipping, as **Marley** notes, is a pretty standard affair across the globe, no matter the country of origin. It was a pretty nasty arrow to throw Turkey’s way, an integral part of the international community. That their word can’t be trusted? And that even less faith can be put in their word because they are a MUSLEM nation? I am not sure of a strict definition of bigotry or racism, but I would think that this comes pretty close. “Particularly a Muslim country?” Take away Muslem and insert your own descriptor here. How is it not incendiary and divisive? This is the sort of attitude that has prolonged this dispute. Why should their word be less trusted just because they are Muslem? Also, to note, it wasn’t “inpsection of shipping” that you were asking for. You were asserting that Turkey’s words can’t be believed, not that the shipping should be inspected. Furthermore, why is the religious affiliation needed in your follow up? Why can’t you just say Turks and Israelis? Please examine your attitudes and think about what you are saying, these attitudes perpetuate this whole fuck-up, not ameliorate it. ---
**Author:** ![Camus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ba8739/32.png) [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/622 "2010-06-02T13:26:32Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Er excuse me, but that’s not the assertion that was made. > > The assertion that was made, in effect, was that the MUSLEM Turkey would deliberately lie and purposely allow arms into Gaza. > > That’s a little bit different to inspecting cargo upon arrival you know. > > It doesn’t help to be deliberately mis-representing what was said, and I would have thought a moderator should know better. Well, if you’ll note, **FoieGrasIsEvil** was asking two questions (not assertions), not just the one: [QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil] Why would Israel take any other country’s word (with the exception of maybe the USA) WRT shipping manifests for goods being shipped into an area like Gaza? Particularly a Muslim country? [/QUOTE] **Marley23** was responding to the first. You might want to be more careful when accusing someone of deliberately misrepresenting something. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/623 "2010-06-02T13:30:32Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > Well, if you’ll note, **FoieGrasIsEvil** was asking two questions (not assertions), not just the one: > > **Marley23** was responding to the first. You might want to be more careful when accusing someone of deliberately misrepresenting something. Except FoieGras didn’t mention inspecting cargo. Which I would agree any country has the right to do. He asked the question why should anyone believe Turkey, much less because they are (presumabley dirty dishonest lying, if you believe the subtext) Muslems. He is bringing their word into question, implying that they can’t be trusted. After inspecting a cargo and declaring it free of weapons that their word can’t be trusted. IF I were a Turk, this would be highly offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/624 "2010-06-02T13:46:16Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Er excuse me, but that’s not the assertion that was made. > > The assertion that was made, in effect, was that the MUSLEM Turkey would deliberately lie and purposely allow arms into Gaza. “In effect” = “not what he really said.” Read this again: > [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Why would Israel take any other country’s word (with the exception of maybe the USA) WRT shippitng manifests for goods being shipped into an area like Gaza? The following bit about “particularly a Muslim country” could be read as a implying Turkey would allow smuggling - or it could just mean Israel would be less trusting of a Muslim country. You assumed he meant the first one, and I didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/625 "2010-06-02T13:58:54Z")
Well considering that FoieGras appears to be decidedly on the side of Israel in this argument, he is basically saying that Israel is RIGHT to suspect that Turkey is lying. That Turkey’s word cannot be trusted. And that it makes a difference that a democratic country that is a part of Nato is Muslem. You don’t find that to be somewhat coloured and bigoted? And yes, I may well be bringing my own biases to the argument. Mind you, I do live beside a large Muslem country, and there is a sizeable Muslem mionority here. I have never had any reason to believe that the word of a Muslem is worth any less than that of the fine, moral and upstanding Christians of America. And that the words of a Muslem are worth considerably more than those of a Jew? And yes, this is an offensive statement. But see where the arguement gets taken once someone starts asserting that religion has anything at all to do with a nation’s trustworthiness? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/626 "2010-06-02T14:13:40Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Well considering that FoieGras appears to be decidedly on the side of Israel in this argument, he is basically saying that Israel is RIGHT to suspect that Turkey is lying. Yeah, at this point he does appear to be saying Israel should be less trustful of a Muslim country. Which is wrong. (And for the record, **FoieGrasIsEvil** , Turkey is officially secular thanks to its military.) As far as I know they haven’t done anything to deserve additional suspicion. It makes sense for Israel to inspect the cargo, but that’s because it makes sense to inspect any cargo - not because of religious issues. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/627 "2010-06-02T14:22:32Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > There is a pretty strong case that the Israeli blockade ,as it stands, violates international law because of its indiscriminate and arbitrary nature and the enormous civilian suffering that it causes. There is also the issue of whether Israeli is still legally the occupying power in Gaza and has the right to impose a blockade. The facts have been cited, quoted, discussed and rehashed again and again in this thread. Your claims are simply counter-factual and strangely so. International law, specifically, would view the blockade as illegal if it _did not_ blockade all traffic indiscriminately. Just like it would be illegal if instead of providing control it allowed states to inspect goods and then just ship them in. Under the claim of supporting “international law” you are calling for it to be violated. Likewise the laws of a maritime blockade are governed by states existing in a situation of belligerency, not whether or not one occupies the other. As for the claim that the suffering caused by the 4th Geneva Convention’s guidelines on consignments is somehow _worse_ than what will happen when Hamas gets enough weaponry to attack again, and causes another war? (Unless the position is “just let Hamas shoot rockets into Israel until they get bored” or “sure Israel has the right to self defense, as long as they use ninja demons to infiltrate Gaza and there aren’t civilian casualties.”) It certainly seems odd to suggest that another round of war is somehow going to be less damaging than sanctions. Especially with a totally open coastal border. What sort of weaponry, and how much, do you think Hamas would be able to import And then there’s the fact that you seem to have created the category of “legal occupation”. The GC imposes certain dynamics of occupiers. We’ve had people claim that they only exist for self-identified occupiers, which they never could cite. Now you’re essentially claiming that they only exist for internationally recognized occupiers. Can you cite _that_? ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/628 "2010-06-02T14:40:34Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > We’ve had people claim that they only exist for self-identified occupiers, which they never could cite. Except we didn’t. As you seem to need to be hand-held through everything, here are the basics: 1. As Israel does not see itself as an occupying power Israel does not feel the need to act as an occupying power as set by the Geneva Conventions. 2. The UN argues that Israel is an occupying power. 3. (My guess) The UN Security Council is responsible for enforcing such things and creating resolutions regarding Israel and the occupying power status. 4. The US, as a permanent member of the UN Security Council with veto rights, throws a hissy fit whenever Israel is even remotely criticised and hence nothing gets done. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/629 "2010-06-02T14:44:49Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Why would Israel take any other country’s word (with the exception of maybe the USA) WRT shipping manifests for goods being shipped into an area like Gaza? Particularly a Muslim country? Turkey isn’t a Muslim country. It’s a secular democracy with a Muslim majority. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/630 "2010-06-02T14:51:30Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > (And for the record, **FoieGrasIsEvil** , Turkey is officially secular thanks to its military.) It’s nowhere near that simple. [ > [@](#): > > The struggle between the secular Turkish military and the Islamic-oriented government reached new heights Wednesday as a court jailed 12 senior officers — including five admirals, an army general and six other officers. > > The officers are charged with plotting several years ago to topple the government of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, news reports said Wednesday. More officers could be charged later this week. > > Former chiefs of Air Force, Navy and Special Forces were also among about 50 officers detained by police in a sweep Monday. > > Turkey, a predominantly Muslim but officially secular country, is witnessing an unprecedented showdown between the country’s rising political Islamic movement and its fiercely secular founders, the military officers. ]([http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=9928324](http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=9928324)) [ > [@](#): > > Turkey was thrown into crisis yesterday when the country’s supreme court moved to oust the government of Recep Tayyip Erdogan and close down his political party, the country’s biggest and most successful. > > The 11-judge court, a bastion of the secularist establishment, decided unanimously to hear a case calling for the closure of Erdogan’s ruling Justice and Development party (AKP) as well as banning the prime minister and president from politics for five years on the grounds that they are trying to impose Islamic law in the overwhelmingly Muslim country of 70 million. > > The decision followed a failed attempt by the country’s military leaders to mount a coup by stealth last year against the prime minister and to stop Abdullah Gul, the former foreign minister, from becoming president and head of state. ]([Supreme court threatens Islamic party's government in Turkey | Turkey | The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/01/turkey)) [ > [@](#): > > Government surveillance of AK Party critics and leaks to media of personal phone conversations have created a climate of fear. There is concern among some liberals that the country is becoming a police state. The foundation of a healthy democracy – the right to dissent and hold an elected government accountable – is gradually being undermined. > > When asked about mass wire-tapping, Minister of Transportation Binali Yildirim gave a Kafkaesque response: "It is not possible to prevent being listened to; the only way is not to talk [on the phone]. If there is nothing illegal in our actions, we should not be concerned about such things. > > Some examples of recent intrusive practices in Turkey include the appearance on YouTube of voice recordings of prominent figures either from the military or antigovernment circles. Several anti-Islamist senior military officers have reportedly resigned over the past few years when faced with the possibility that their private conversations would be leaked. The leaks involve some top-secret military documents, so they are also highly illegal and might pose a serious security breach for the NATO alliance. ]([http://www.hudson.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=publication\_details&id=](http://www.hudson.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=publication_details&id=)) [ > [@](#): > > Erdogan is pushing through historic reforms of Turkey’s treatment of its Kurdish minority and recently took a major step toward opening the country’s border with Armenia. > > Yet, as his tenure lengthens, it is becoming evident that Mr. Erdogan’s commitment to democratic principles and Western values is far from complete. As Turkey’s prospects of joining the European Union have dimmed, the government’s foreign policy has taken a nasty turn: Shrill denunciations of Israel have been accompanied by increasing coziness with the criminal rulers of Iran, Syria and Sudan. Mr. Erdogan recently declared that Sudanese President Omar Hassan al-Bashir, who has been indicted for war crimes in Darfur, was welcome in Turkey because “a Muslim can never commit genocide.” > > Even more concerning is Mr. Erdogan’s treatment of the Turkish media. Frustrated by hostility toward his government by media conglomerates that formed part of Turkey’s traditional secular establishment, the prime minister and his allies have resorted to increasingly heavy-handed measures. Two years ago a forced sale of the country’s second-biggest newspaper placed it in the hands of a company headed by Mr. Erdogan’s son-in-law. Once critical, it is now predictably pro-government. > > Now the government is threatening to destroy Turkey’s largest media company, Dogan Yayin. ]([http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/22/AR2009112201602.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/22/AR2009112201602.html)) Nor is it quite accurate to say that the situation isn’t a cause for concern. No, if Turkey simply had Islamic sentiments that wouldn’t be a problem, but remember it was Erdogan who claimed that genocide could not possibly be going on in Darfur because Muslims are not capable of engaging in genocidal behavior, but that the war the Israel fought in Gaza was in fact worse than what happening in Darfur. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/631 "2010-06-02T14:57:32Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Ghandi like tactics depend on the presumed morality of the oppressor, that he can be shamed. This “blockade run” is an example of such, in my estimation. As such, it depends on the basic decency of Israel to be effective. I think that faith is well-placed, the Palestinians of Gaza appear to have a less sanguine view. If the Palestinians of Gaza can forget the decades of abuse, oppression and injustice at the hands of the israelis and embrace Gandhi-like tactics, I think they would achieve far better results than ten thousand suicide bombers. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/632 "2010-06-02T15:00:05Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Except we didn’t. As you seem to need to be hand-held through everything, here are the basics: This kind of sniping was off limits yesterday and it’s still off limits. Don’t do this again. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/633 "2010-06-02T15:01:26Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Except we didn’t. Yes, you did. Let me quote your own words for you. > [@amanset](#): > > Mr FinnAgain that is struggling with it as accepting that Israel denies being an occupying power limits his ability to use the Geneva Conventions rules regarding Occupying Powers to justify Israel’s actions. Yet again, rather obviously, the Geneva Convention applies to any occupying power. Your claim that an occupying power has to self-identify as such in order for the 4th Geneva Convention to apply and justify actions taken in accord with the GC, is simply an absurdity. > [@amanset](#): > > here are the basics: > > 1. As Israel does not see itself as an occupying power Israel does not feel the need to act as an occupying power as set by the Geneva Conventions. Yes, both halves of that statement have already been identified as not true. Israel’s supreme court has specifically found that it exists in a state of belligerent occupation. Likewise, if Israel did not have to act as an occupying power then you’re claiming that the 4th Geneva Convention simply wouldn’t have been applied. Yet, again, as Israel’s supreme court has ruled that it is precisely the state of occupation which governs Israel’s implementation of the 4th Geneva Convention, you don’t have a leg to stand on. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/634 "2010-06-02T15:04:17Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > It’s nowhere near that simple. I do have a general idea of what’s going on over there. Nowhere did I say it the situation was simple. Actually I think that one sentence (where I said the only thing keeping the country officially secular is the military’s influence over the government) indicates it’s _not_ simple. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/635 "2010-06-02T15:06:45Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Israel’s supreme court has specifically found that it exists in a state of belligerent occupation. Yes, that’s what happens when you build your house halfway onto someone elses land and then insist they cut down trees whose branches are impinging on “your” property. For such a wise bunch of elders, I’m surprised the current situation might never have occurred to them. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/636 "2010-06-02T15:08:43Z")
I am not decidedly on the side of Israel. I am asking simple questions WRT what **may** be the Israeli POV. I do think that Israel, having a blockade in place, defended it as it said it would. I don’t think they expected this outcome. They do have a right to inspect ships, just like any other nation of commerce does. I also resent the racist implications. I was merely pointing out (by asking the question) why should Israel automatically trust inbound cargo on ships based on what the country of origin says is on those vessels without inspecting them first? And, tangentially, would Israel be more likely to not trust cargoes coming in from Muslim nations (the point about Turkey not being explicitly a “Muslim Nation” is taken) given the historical avarice between Jews and Muslims? I thought it was a pretty simple thing, so please don’t read more into it than what it is. What about the claim made upthread that Israel would reject 3/4ths of the stuff on the aid ships if they did dock at Ashdod for inspections? It sounds pretty ludicrous. Perhaps I’m not wording or framing my questions clearly. I am very interested in Israel’s relationship to the rest of the world, but I don’t know much intricacy about these matters. Invariably I pop into these threads asking a bunch of questions so I can try to form a clearer outlook. It’s a complicated issue with a lot of violence and religious and ethnic hatred fueling it. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/637 "2010-06-02T15:12:42Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I said the only thing keeping the country officially secular is the military’s influence over the government That’s the part that isn’t simple. The Turkish military has traditionally had the role of removing non-secular governments from power. Erdogan neutralized that ability, perhaps permanently. The first cite I provided details how just a few months ago Turkey’s government arrested numerous members of the military precisely because of their influence over the government and potential to remove non-secular leaders, while the country’s economic minister stated that the goal was to put the military under civilian control. That the military even has the ability to keep the country secular at this point is certainly not an uncontested fact. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/638 "2010-06-02T15:13:31Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > You just don’t get it do you. > > The Gazans DON’T want to leave their land. No I don’t get it. I’m not there, I don’t know anybody there and I have no ties to the region. Everything i know about this situation I get from the news and from diplomats familiar with the situation. If life is so horrible in those camps, why the heck wouldn’t they want to start a new life ina new country? I’d want to get the the heck out of there as soon as i could and find a better life for my family and children. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/639 "2010-06-02T15:14:33Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > The same position as the blockade runners, and the same reason that they weren’t simple aid workers but people involved in trying to end a defensive military blockade. Well, I think it is reasonable to assume they were also trying to make a point. Its not like Gandhi really needed the salt (and no I don’t think every one of the aid workers are like Gandhi but some of them are trying to be. Perhaps, they wanted to see how far Israel would go to maintain a blockade that is causing a humanitarian crisis in Gaza (and we have our answer). No humanitarian crisis then no flotilla, no international outrage but as things stand, Israel killed people who were going to feed the hungry, care for the sick and provide shelter to those without homes. Good job, the world hates you now, to a degree that matches the paranoid fantasies of some of the die hard zionists. > [@](#): > > Saying that the blockade should simply be stopped, not modified, not retooled, not ameliorated, but ended completely is to say that Hamas should be given the ability to import weapons immediately. Well, there’s probably something else that might have worked if Israel had started with something that wouldn’t have caused a humanitarian crisis but when you have everyone from teh red cross to amnesty international to the UN saying there is a pretty bad humanitarian crisis in gaza and then THIS happens, I don’t know if you get a second bite at that apple. > [@](#): > > This is not a plan for peace, but war. That’s just your opinion. Your attitude towards “peace” in the middle east has only led to more and more violence. Now israel is on the brink of losing every friend it has in the world. > [@](#): > > Denying that Israel has any right to self defense I don’t remember saying that. Can you point me to where I said that or retract (or perhaps it was idiomatic). > [@](#): > > Instead, the argument is about how to remove Israel’s ability to engage in self defense while using the pretext of humanitarian concerns as a battering ram. PRETEXT? You make it sound like the humanitarian concerns are manufactured. Go in and treat the Gazans as you would treat Jews and see where that gets you. Negotiate with teh Gazans from teh perspective orf equity rather than from the superior negotiating position you have carved out for yourself over the last 60 years of oppression. > [@](#): > > This is the truly jabberwockian nature of the situation: “Let Hamas arm itself to the teeth, for peace!” A blockade that causes a humanitarian crisis not the only way to prevent Hamas from getting weapons. As things stand, it looks like Israel is either going to have to give up more than they ever stood to gain or it is going to die with its boots on. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/640 "2010-06-02T15:19:24Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Yeah, at this point he does appear to be saying Israel should be less trustful of a Muslim country. Which is wrong. (And for the record, **FoieGrasIsEvil** , Turkey is officially secular thanks to its military.) As far as I know they haven’t done anything to deserve additional suspicion. It makes sense for Israel to inspect the cargo, but that’s because it makes sense to inspect any cargo - not because of religious issues. Well good, and it does make sense to inspect the cargo (though personally I don’t understand why it can only be inspected in Israel, and then forwarded by Israel, but I don’t want to go there right now) Where is a handshakey smiley when you want one? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=33)