# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/761 "2010-06-03T09:46:31Z")
Actually, thought it’s too late to edit my own post, insert “alleged” before “fauxtography” and “propaganda”. After reading the link, it seems to me there’s a simple way the EXIF date/time stamp could be incorrect: by not setting the date/time upon first set up, in which case it defaults to the manufacture date of the camera. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/762 "2010-06-03T10:05:27Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > So, damaging the economy of a nation that you are at war with is not a “collective punishment”? > > That’s an interesting and convenient way of interpreting things. If the objective is to prevent future attacks by your enemies rather than to punish past transgressions, then it is not “collective punishment” because it is not punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/763 "2010-06-03T10:06:19Z")
Also, the supposed official Ministry of Foreign Affairs flickr photostream is a fake. One of its profile pictures is by “styleislam” and another a picture of Netenyahu dressed as a pirate. [Cite](http://www.flickr.com/people/israel-mfa/). ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_With\_Words](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weird_with_words/32/385_2.png) [@Weird\_With\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_With_Words)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/764 "2010-06-03T10:39:41Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Also, the supposed official Ministry of Foreign Affairs flickr photostream is a fake. One of its profile pictures is by “styleislam” and another a picture of Netenyahu dressed as a pirate. [Cite](http://www.flickr.com/people/israel-mfa/). Both of those photos were uploaded by a different user. I’m not sure why those pop up when you click “profile”, but when you click on the profile pictures it takes you to the site of the person who uploaded it. Anyway, my main reason for thinking that flickr photostream is really the Ministry of Foreign Affairs’ baby is the fact it has pictures dating quite a ways back, and all of them are the kind of pictures you’d expect the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to publish (for example, pictures from January of Israel helping in Haiti). You’re right about the time stamps though, it’s almost certainly because the times on the cameras weren’t set. In fact, I seem to recall this exact same accusation of fraud being made about some pictures related to Kerry a few years back. Those also turned out to be incorrectly tagged due to a mistaken camera date. Besides, if they were going to fake some photographic evidence, you’d think they’d come up with something a bit more damning. The most dangerous thing I saw there was a butterfly knife with a blade the size of my thumb. Oh, and the electric saw, but that doesn’t concern me since Jason wasn’t on board. ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/765 "2010-06-03T10:51:11Z")
Predictably, the discussion has bogged down into highly selective analyses. The first victim of such is always human perspective. But please, go on arguing that people in Gaza are not in the midst of a crisis if it helps you feel better. The real issues remain unchanged. The blockade exists (nominally) to prevent smuggled arms from threatening Israel. However, a look at the specifics of the blockade quickly reveals that it has another much darker purpose: to create problems, unrest, and deficiencies in the Gaza population. It is collective punishment. It’s the old pressure cooker problem already mentioned much earlier in the thread. Israel turns up pressure on the population of Gaza in the hope that it will translate into a loss of goodwill for Hamas - the rogue Palestinian body that Israel’s harsher policies helped to legitimize and get elected in the first place. This application of pressure is a strategy that only furthers the purposes of the extremists on \*\*both \*\*sides of the problem. Hamas loves it because it strengthens their position as protectors against aggressors and providers of services, and Israeli hawks love it because it gives them convenient excuses for further disenfranchisement of Palestinians. The people who lose out are, of course, all those in between the two equally idiotic positions. Opposing this counterproductive collective punishment is an admirable effort and it has already had some positive results (Egypt opened up its side of Gaza, while the world better understands Israel’s extreme policies). The parallels between the aid flotilla and Gandhi’s salt march are strong. Though the flotilla may have failed to achieve non-violent resistance, no one had to die in the process had it been intelligently managed. It’s hard to find informed points of views arguing that Israel acted smartly on this. Israel is perfectly capable of stopping arms from being smuggled into Gaza without having to block coriander and other lethal weapons at whim, so this protest/aid delivery might have been a chance for \*\*all \*\*parties to move forward on policies founded on common sense in place of oppression (which the blockade is). Instead, the muscle-for-brains thinking prevailed and nine people are dead, dozens more are injured, an international incident blossomed, and Israeli leadership looks like a bunch of violent assholes grasping at straws to legitimize an untenable position. The residents of Gaza continue a miserable existence, while support for Hamas has if anything grown, at least as far as I can tell in these early stages. Perhaps (to answer the “what now” part of the OP) this incredibly stupid incident will result in a more intelligent, less draconian approach to the challenges Israel and Palestine face. A reduction in pressure is no doubt coming, and in the long term that’s the only real solution. Unfortunately, given the ideological idiot currently in power in Israel, it very possible that bluster and posturing will take the place of reasoned debate for at least the medium term. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/766 "2010-06-03T11:00:06Z")
ah forget it. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/767 "2010-06-03T11:06:39Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > If the objective is to prevent future attacks by your enemies rather than to punish past transgressions, then it is not “collective punishment” because it is not punishment. You can prevent future mortar attacks by forbidding access to chocolate? That’s another interesting concept. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/768 "2010-06-03T11:07:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > My understanding was that Egypt was cooperating because they recognized that hamas would make a horrible neighbor and might radicalize their own population. [Reuter Q and A on Egypt and Gaza](http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE4BQ1NF20081227) > [@](#): > > So why does Egypt continue to restrict access to Gaza? > > THE BURDEN OF GAZA – Cairo believes that if it left the Egypt-Gaza border wide open Israel would wash its hands of responsibility for ensuring the Gazans receive enough to keep them alive – food, water, medical supplies, electricity and other essentials. Egyptian diplomats say that Israel would seal the border with Gaza on its side, diverting all trade and traffic through Egypt. > > The burden would be a drain on Egyptian resources and the authorities might find it hard to prevent an influx of Gaza Palestinians seeking work and housing. > > In one worst-case scenario Israel might hold Egypt responsible for any attacks on Israel launched from Gaza, forcing Egypt to act as Gaza policeman – a role fraught with danger. Egypt’s presence in Gaza between 1948 and 1967, and its inability to impose full control on Palestinian groups there, helped drag Egypt into war with Israel in 1956 and 1967. > [@](#): > > THE U.S. ALLIANCE – The United States, without significant dissent from the European Union, has pressed Egypt to maintain the blockade, in the belief that it will weaken Hamas and force it into submission. Egypt, despite reservations about many aspects of U.S. foreign policy, still receives about $1.4 billion a year in U.S. aid and has a strategic alliance with Washington. The Egyptian government has the tacit support of conservative Arab rulers and pays little heed to more confrontational states in the region, such as Syria and Iran. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/769 "2010-06-03T11:43:51Z")
Surely everyone understand the blockade strengthens Hamas because Hamas ‘owns’ the tunnels from Egypt to Gaza and tax’s goods coming through them? Hams makes a huge chunk of money from what is effectively sales tax. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/770 "2010-06-03T13:05:58Z")
I can’t wait for the IDF to release all the reporters tapes into the public domain. Obviously the commando’s were being lynched and were merely defending themselves and the tapes will back that up…eh? (cough cough) ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/771 "2010-06-03T13:18:10Z")
You may want to watch [this video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaiMjAULWn0) (graphic, but not overly so) Some of the footage **is** from the ships themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/772 "2010-06-03T13:35:51Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Or bombed by planes, utterly levelling building as opposed to the small hole in a road a rocket makes, including using white phosphorous in an illegal manner, which was then denied and denied until it became so damn obvious that Israel had to come clean. > **[Tu quoque](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque)** > > Tu quoque\[a\], literally "you, too", is a rhetorical technique that intends to discredit the opponent's argument by attacking the opponent's own personal behavior and actions as being inconsistent with their argument, so that the opponent appears hypocritical. This specious reasoning is a special type of ad hominem attack. The Oxford English Dictionary cites John Cooke's 1614 stage play The Cittie Gallant as the earliest known use of the term in the English language. > The (fallacious) tu quoque a... ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/773 "2010-06-03T13:43:01Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So Palestinians had to choose between crazy and incompetent and they chose crazy. Perhaps we should be doing more to buildup these institutions, isn’t there something we can do to build these institutions without creating puppets? On this point, I’m in hearty agreement. The solution to this problem will never be found in the sort of partisan back-and-forth we see in this thread and in the news generally. It will only be found in building up those aspects and institutions of Palestine that genuinely seek to create a viable state (not qualified with 'but first, we must take back what was ours … '). The problem, as you so correctly point out, is that anyone doing so from outside will be suspected of ‘creating puppets’. This will no doubt be a long-term and painful strategy. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/774 "2010-06-03T14:41:15Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > So, damaging the economy of a nation that you are at war with is not a “collective punishment”? > > That’s an interesting and convenient way of interpreting things. Damaging the economy of a nation that you are at war with is a standard strategy of war, and has been used in virtually every war I’ve ever read about. “Collective punishment” isn’t the purpose, damaging the enemy’s ability to wage war is the purpose. Civilians will suffer, but their suffering isn’t the purpose of the action, just an unfortunate but acceptable side effect. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/775 "2010-06-03T14:51:39Z")
> [@Noone\_Special](#): > > You may want to watch [this video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaiMjAULWn0) (graphic, but not overly so) > > Some of the footage **is** from the ships themselves. DHA is the Turkish news agency. This is their tape of events. This is the one the IDF is currently putting out. DHA have stated that this tape is edited. What DHA and the rest of the reporters want is ALL of the tapes to be released and every portion to be shown to the public, not just this IDF edited DHA tape. The reporter filming this DHA tape wants his tape back to allow it to be shown in full. Not just IDF highlights. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/776 "2010-06-03T16:03:50Z")
Just out of curiosity and under the assumption that this kind of information will fuel the consequences of the flotilla raid, can any gun experts or as **Marmite Lover** would call them, “Americans”, know how hard it is to deliver [4 gunshot wounds to the head](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/03/AR2010060301931.html?sid=ST2010060204691)? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/777 "2010-06-03T16:13:56Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > DHA have stated that this tape is edited. And yet still it shows that the IDF wasn’t _not_ opening fire on the "peace activists’ who were trying to kill them and were, in fact, still armed with their paintball guns and hadn’t draw their sidearms. And of course it’s edited, it cuts between that an other footage and isn’t continuous. But what difference are you claiming that the non-edited portion makes? Is your claim that the first few all unholstered their sidearms an opened fire (where are the bodies, then?) and then put them away while the rest of the team rappelled down and nobody, at all, laid down suppressive fire? The ROE were set to “full on massacre, baby” and yet we have footage of a soldier being repeatedly stabbed while he hold his _paintfball_ gun and hasn’t drawn a sidearm yet? Haven’t we been hearing about how brutal the IDF is? This seems like the actions of the Keystone Cops of a planned massacre. “Quick Ned, set your painball gun to full auto!” Speaking of odd claims, have you find a reputable cite for your claims about an “assassination list” yet? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/778 "2010-06-03T16:33:49Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > This seems like the actions of the Keystone Cops of a planned massacre. “Quick Ned, set your painball gun to full auto!” If the activists would have simply put their hands up and left the battle zone when hit none of this would have happened. Thankfully, they automatically got red-carded by initiating physical contact. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/779 "2010-06-03T16:35:52Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > And yet still it shows that the IDF wasn’t _not_ opening fire on the "peace activists’ “was not” or “wasn’t”, take your pick. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/780 "2010-06-03T19:21:02Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **Damuri Ajashi** , read **tomndebb** latest post. We’re not allowing any more comments like this in this thread, and the next time you fail to notice moderator instructions it will be treated as if you’re ignoring them intentionally. WTF?!?! Now I can’t even point out that Finn Again is putting words in my mouth by equating “you should drop the blockade” with “israel doesn’t have a right to defend itself” I am noticing a pattern here. I pit the moderators (I am allowed to Pit moderators right?) and Finn Again. As suggested by the moderators I am also posting to ATMB to complain about teh moderating. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=40)