# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 40
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/781 "2010-06-03T19:26:24Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > WTF?!? This is one of the odder moderatorial directives I’ve ever seen. At the risk of interpreting, it seems to imply that we must understand rather than merely interpret what others say. Language being the imprecise tool that it is… well, you understand, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/782 "2010-06-03T20:45:28Z")
This debate centers around the flotilla attempting to deliver humanitarian aid. That was not what the flotilla was all about: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/jV6DVk04HkM/hqdefault.jpg ""Suicide Activists on the Gaza Flotilla" (DavidAndGoliathBook.com)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV6DVk04HkM) See also [Our World: Ending Israel's losing streak - The Jerusalem Post](http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=177082) The bottom line, as others have noted, is that Israel was not prepared to properly intercept the flotilla which resulted in casualties that could possibly have been prevented. Since the media have many Arab reporters, photographers, etc., and some of the Media (notably BBC and other English media) have an anti-Israel slant, most of the media represent Israel in an unfavorable light. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/783 "2010-06-03T20:46:01Z")
Posting in parts because I keep getting errors. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Which part of this do you claim is invalid or unsound? The part where you claim that I said that “Israel does not have the right to defend itself” because I suggested that they drop the blockade. > [@](#): > > Are individuals committing an illegal act by violating a blockade? No, OK then. Israel does not have a right to blockade in the the same way they have the “right” to inspect all goods coming into their ports. They may blockade without breaking international law but other can choose to ignore the blockade (at their peril). Until recently I did not think you were confused about this nuance. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/784 "2010-06-03T20:54:57Z")
> [@](#): > > However, if another nation decided to add warships to the mix and open fire on Israeli ships engaged in enforcing a legal blockade, that would be an act of war and most like would fall under the rubric for wars of aggression. Aren’t blockades acts of war? My impression was that Turkey was thinking about escorting aid ships not firing on Israelis ship (unless fired upon). In any event it sounds like Turkey may be mollified into not sending warships. lets hope so. > [@](#): > > You are wrong on both counts, by their own admission. The blockade runners admitted that their ultimate goal was to end the blockade. As already identified a maritime blockade that is not effective is illegal. Thus, by making the blockade ineffective they aim at making it illegal. This makes it prohibited. It is international law that prohibits it not the blockade runners. As you so deftly pointed out to the board, Israel may legally destroy these humanitarian aid ships just like the British Empire could legally shoot Gandhi in the head for insurrection. Did Gandhi prohibit the British Empire from their monopoly on salt? > [@](#): > > There are no NATO obligations involved. Although we may have one hell of a war on our hands if Turkey opens fire on Israeli ships while Turkey aims at ending the blockade and preventing Israel from stopping the importation of rockets to Hamas. Why do you think Turkey is the one that will do the shooting? What if Israel fires on Turkish ships in an effort to stop the shipment from reaching Gaza? Then does NATO get involved? > [@](#): > > there’s quite a bit of daylight between war and hardship. We are not talking about the difference between war and hardship, we are talking about whether these entities said that a humanitarian crisis exists in Gaza. That is the point we were arguing neh? > [@](#): > > Unless there is a critical threat to the lives or health of a population, calling it a humanitarian crisis just doesn’t make sense. Then why does Amnesty international, the red cross, the UN and the assitant secretary of state of America all call it a humanitarian crisis? Are these people just nonsensical? > [@](#): > > But a crisis is a defining moment, a turning point, where something stands at a knife’s edge between disaster and success. A “crisis” through which people can be born, age, and die of old age is not a crisis. I think you are confusing the Palestinian refugee problem generally with the crisis that started when hamas took power. > [@](#): > > These help draw clear bright lines between crisis situations and Gaza. I’m gonna go with The state department, the UN, amnesty international and the red cross on this one. I don’t think this means that Israel is evil or even that they are not acting within the bounds of international law to do what they are doing but a humanitarian crisis can arise from the legal use of military force. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/785 "2010-06-03T20:58:18Z")
What I asked was: > [@](#): > > Sam Remo allows blockades in order to implement UN Charter Article 51. Article 51, in turn, is the right to self defense. So nations have a right to employ blockades for the purpose of self defense. > Which part of this do you claim is invalid or unsound? Is this argument invalid and unsound? If so which premise(s) are false and how is the conclusion wrong? Is the argument valid but unsound? If so why is the conclusion false? > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > OK then. Israel does not have a right to blockade in the the same way they have the “right” to inspect all goods coming into their ports. This is a distinction without a difference. Many rights that someone, or some nation have are not exactly the same as other rights. I have a right to not have someone attempt my murder and the government will use force against them if they do. I also have a right to not, say, be the subject of slander but if I’m walking down the street with my colleagues and someone tells them that I eat puppies then I’m the one who has to take action and resort to civil courts. This is why I’ve asked you to identify any parts of the above formulation that you view as invalid or unsound, and why. And, obviously, I’ve already pointed out that private citizens violating a blockade are not committing an act that’s illegal under international law. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > It is international law that prohibits it not the blockade runners. The international law prohibits it if blockade runners violate it and render it ineffective. You cannot artificially separate the two. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/786 "2010-06-03T21:04:12Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Aren’t blockades acts of war? > > My impression was that Turkey was thinking about escorting aid ships not firing on Israelis ship (unless fired upon). In any event it sounds like Turkey may be mollified into not sending warships. lets hope so. > > It is international law that prohibits it not the blockade runners. As you so deftly pointed out to the board, Israel may legally destroy these humanitarian aid ships just like the British Empire could legally shoot Gandhi in the head for insurrection. Did Gandhi prohibit the British Empire from their monopoly on salt? > > Why do you think Turkey is the one that will do the shooting? What if Israel fires on Turkish ships in an effort to stop the shipment from reaching Gaza? Then does NATO get involved? > > We are not talking about the difference between war and hardship, we are talking about whether these entities said that a humanitarian crisis exists in Gaza. That is the point we were arguing neh? > > Then why does Amnesty international, the red cross, the UN and the assitant secretary of state of America all call it a humanitarian crisis? Are these people just nonsensical? > > I think you are confusing the Palestinian refugee problem generally with the crisis that started when hamas took power. > > I’m gonna go with The state department, the UN, amnesty international and the red cross on this one. I don’t think this means that Israel is evil or even that they are not acting within the bounds of international law to do what they are doing but a humanitarian crisis can arise from the legal use of military force. See [http://jewishworldreview.com/0610/peretz060310.php3](http://jewishworldreview.com/0610/peretz060310.php3) Amnesty International is a well-known pro-Arab group with a misleading name. The UN always rules against Israel since most of the countries are either Arab or pro-Arab. As for Clinton, see my link above. They are not non-sensical, but biased. Turkey turned against Israel months ago. It appears that she was one of the instigating factors in this disaster. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/787 "2010-06-03T21:22:42Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Is this argument invalid and unsound? If so which premise(s) are false and how is the conclusion wrong? Is the argument valid but unsound? If so why is the conclusion false? I have already said that the blocakde is probably legal. Do you want me to say it again? You claim that I said that “Israel does not have the right to defend itself” because I suggested that they drop the blockade. What part of THAT is false? If that is not false then weren’t you putting words in my mouth? > [@](#): > > And, obviously, I’ve already pointed out that private citizens violating a blockade are not committing an act that’s illegal under international law. Thats all I was saying. Some people (not you) seemed to think that Israel’s “right” to blockade was being violated by the humanitarian flotilla. > [@](#): > > The international law prohibits it if blockade runners violate it and render it ineffective. > You cannot artificially separate the two. Certainly a single unstopped blockade runner does not make the blockade invalid does it? Israel can still legally shoot all the blockade runners out of the water (as you so deftly pointed out to us the other day. When Gandhi went and got salt, he was not prohibiting the British Empire from maintaining a monopoly on salt. he was hoever forcing teh British Empire to choose between their monopoly on salt and taking action against Gandhi and other protesters. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/788 "2010-06-03T21:29:11Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > See [http://jewishworldreview.com/0610/peretz060310.php3](http://jewishworldreview.com/0610/peretz060310.php3) > > Amnesty International is a well-known pro-Arab group with a misleading name. The UN always rules against Israel since most of the countries are either Arab or pro-Arab. As for Clinton, see my link above. They are not non-sensical, but biased. > > Turkey turned against Israel months ago. It appears that she was one of the instigating factors in this disaster. You know it sounds kind of paranoid. Do you think there is any chance that here is a reason people are not fond of Israel or is it all unwarranted prejudice and bias? ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/789 "2010-06-03T21:41:00Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You know it sounds kind of paranoid. > > Do you think there is any chance that here is a reason people are not fond of Israel or is it all unwarranted prejudice and bias? Do you think there was a reason for the Holocaust? I’ve posted this before and was criticized by a Moderator. Israel stands alone, surrounded by Arab countries, pro-Arab NGOs, pro-Arab GOs, an Arab press and Arab stringers in the US media. England has always been anti-Israel. (Perhaps the bombing of the King David Hotel? I don’t know why, but that is the case.) Israel wanted her own state for that reason: a world largely hostile to Jews. The US had been the only country to back Israel, until Obama was elected president. Obama has been looking for quick fixes so he will look good and is willing to dump Israel to attain that goal. The President of the Israel High Court has ruled on several petitions: [http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3898429,00.html](http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3898429,00.html) ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/790 "2010-06-03T21:44:09Z")
The legality of the blockade has been discussed ab nauseum here, but here’s a synoptic link: [http://www.mag.idf.il/592-4071-en/Patzar.aspx](http://www.mag.idf.il/592-4071-en/Patzar.aspx) ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/791 "2010-06-03T21:48:00Z")
Here’s a link from \*the New Republic \*: [In The Great Flotilla Debate, The Facts Are On Israel's Side | The New Republic](http://www.tnr.com/blog/the-spine/75249/the-great-flotilla-debate-the-facts-are-israels-side) One from _the Washington Times_:[PRUDEN: A shocking story of Israeli survival - Washington Times](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/may/31/pruden-a-shocking-story-of-israeli-survival/) [edited 5:50 PM to add the additional link] ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/792 "2010-06-03T21:53:52Z")
A link from, of all places, England: > **[Israel had no choice over Gaza flotilla | Seth Freedman](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/jun/01/israel-no-choice-gaza-flotilla)** > > Seth Freedman: Flotilla activists had ample opportunity to defuse the situation before the IDF arrived – instead they decided on violence ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/793 "2010-06-03T21:58:58Z")
Joe Biden defends Israel: [http://www.jta.org/news/article/2010/06/02/2739417/biden-defeds-israel-on-flotilla-raid](http://www.jta.org/news/article/2010/06/02/2739417/biden-defeds-israel-on-flotilla-raid) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2010, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/794 "2010-06-03T22:03:47Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Well you have to understand that Judaism, particularly in the US, can be fairly described as bifurcated: Into regular or traditional Judaism; and into an evil cult. [See **tomndebb** ’s note about inflammatory posts.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12520994#post12520994) This would be borderline jerkishness in any thread that wasn’t about religion, and this thread is not really about religion. So drop this, please. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > WTF?!?! Now I can’t even point out that Finn Again is putting words in my mouth by equating “you should drop the blockade” with “israel doesn’t have a right to defend itself” Dispute factual statements all you like, but we’re trying to keep this thread from going off the rails, which has been a struggle. > [@](#): > > I pit the moderators (I am allowed to Pit moderators right?) and Finn Again. To Pit someone means to start a thread about them in The BBQ Pit. Complaints about mod actions belong in ATMB, like I said earlier. I’ll respond to your thread there soon. > [@Squink](#): > > This is one of the odder moderatorial directives I’ve ever seen. At the risk of interpreting, it seems to imply that we must understand rather than merely interpret what others say. You’re free to ask for clarification if you are not sure what another poster means. What we’re saying is that posts to the effect of "here’s what you really meant when you said \_\_\_\_\_ [“flattened,” “starving,” whatever] are off limits for the rest of this thread because they’ve led to so many unproductive tangents. ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_With\_Words](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weird_with_words/32/385_2.png) [@Weird\_With\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_With_Words)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/795 "2010-06-04T00:52:08Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > Israel wanted her own state for that reason: a world largely hostile to Jews. It’s entirely possible world opinion of Israel is based entirely on anti-semitism. History will judge. However, we’re in the present day, and don’t have the luxury of waiting to see how we feel in the future. Things are steadily getting worse in that region, and eventually the world is going to decide it can’t abide the situation anymore, and will intervene. This intervention will almost certainly reflect, in some way, world opinion. So I think it’s in Israel’s best interests to worry about their public image, since that is what will ultimately decide their tenability as a nation. Let future historians worry about anti-semitism. Israel needs to start getting self-concious, and fast. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/796 "2010-06-04T01:02:56Z")
Looks like the [Rachel Corrie](http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Irish-ship-Rachel-Corrie-was-sabotaged-by-Israeli-intelligence-says-report-95425309.html) is sailing toward Gaza from Ireland. The Prime Minister of Ireland said that there will be consequences if the ship is harmed. **The Rachel Corrie will arrive in Gaza this Saturday**. What do you guys think? Will Israel attack the Rachel Corrie? Let it go to Gaza? Or will it sink it? Will anyone be killed? ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/797 "2010-06-04T01:08:00Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > This debate centers around the flotilla attempting to deliver humanitarian aid. That was not what the flotilla was all about: > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV6DVk04HkM](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV6DVk04HkM) > > See also [Opinion | The Jerusalem Post](http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=177082) > > Since the media have many Arab reporters, photographers, etc., and some of the Media (notably BBC and other English media) have an anti-Israel slant, most of the media represent Israel in an unfavorable light. So its all the fault of that Librul media and their nasty gotcha reporting? Yep. I understands. Listening loud and clear on that one. Gotcha. _wink_ By the way, some of us like that hopey changey thing and hope it works out well. And we all know that those dishonest Musselmen reporters cannot be trusted. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/798 "2010-06-04T01:14:32Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Looks like the [Rachel Corrie](http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Irish-ship-Rachel-Corrie-was-sabotaged-by-Israeli-intelligence-says-report-95425309.html) is sailing toward Gaza from Ireland. The Prime Minister of Ireland said that there will be consequences if the ship is harmed. **The Rachel Corrie will arrive in Gaza this Saturday**. What do you guys think? Will Israel attack the Rachel Corrie? Let it go to Gaza? Or will it sink it? Will anyone be killed? Is a Kennedy on board? ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/799 "2010-06-04T01:24:49Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Looks like the [Rachel Corrie](http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Irish-ship-Rachel-Corrie-was-sabotaged-by-Israeli-intelligence-says-report-95425309.html) is sailing toward Gaza from Ireland. The Prime Minister of Ireland said that there will be consequences if the ship is harmed. **The Rachel Corrie will arrive in Gaza this Saturday**. What do you guys think? Will Israel attack the Rachel Corrie? Let it go to Gaza? Or will it sink it? Will anyone be killed? It’s a shame that Mahatiar is involved. Other than that, the out come will be very “interesting”. Let’s hope that common sense prevails on both sides. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/800 "2010-06-04T02:26:08Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > So its all the fault of that Librul media and their nasty gotcha reporting? [Sarah Palin concurs:](http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=394980903434) > [@](#): > > The media, as usual, seems to be reporting only one side of the Israeli Flotilla incident. Don’t trust the mainstream media to give you both sides of a story fairly… you must seek out fair reporting to ensure you have all the information. > > As far too many in the media, and in various governments, rush to condemn Israel, we must put the recent events off Israel’s coast into the right perspective. This “relief” convoy was not about humanitarian aid, as the liberal mainstream media keeps reporting. The whole operation was designed to provoke Israel, not to provide supplies to Palestinians held hostage by Hamas terrorists in Gaza. Anyone who sees the video of Israeli commandos being attacked as they land on that ship knows the people aboard were vicious thugs, not “peace activists.” The media insults our intelligence with their outright mischaracterization of who these enemies are. Of course, Palin is also the half term Governor who [blames environmentalists for the gulf oil spill](http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2010/06/sure-sarah-palin-blames-lets-see-environmentalists-for-gulf-spill.html), so I don’t think anyone need give her much credence on the boardy shooty thing either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=39) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=41)