# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 41
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/801 "2010-06-04T04:57:06Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > [Sarah Palin concurs:](http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=394980903434) Of course, Palin is also the half term Governor who [blames environmentalists for the gulf oil spill](http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2010/06/sure-sarah-palin-blames-lets-see-environmentalists-for-gulf-spill.html), so I don’t think anyone need give her much credence on the boardy shooty thing either. Oh my God. Not to derail this thread but someone should start a thread about this so we can all beat up on her. At least shes not saying is because of the gays. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/802 "2010-06-04T05:13:38Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You’re free to ask for clarification if you are not sure what another poster means. What we’re saying is that posts to the effect of "here’s what you really meant when you said \_\_\_\_\_ [“flattened,” “starving,” whatever] are off limits for the rest of this thread because they’ve led to so many unproductive tangents. OK so when I asked Finn why he thought I said that “Israel does not have the right to defend itself” and he responded by quoting me saying" Israel should drop the blockade" Isn’t that like saying: here’s what you really meant when you said “Israel should drop the blockade” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/803 "2010-06-04T05:18:59Z")
[quote=“barbitu8, post:789, topic:540765”] Do you think there was a reason for the Holocaust? I’ve posted this before and was criticized by a Moderator. Israel stands alone, surrounded by Arab countries, pro-Arab NGOs, pro-Arab GOs, an Arab press and Arab stringers in the US media. England has always been anti-Israel. (Perhaps the bombing of the King David Hotel? I don’t know why, but that is the case.) [quote] I think that the European hostility to Israel, which bleeds into anti-semitism (and it is pretty hard to deny it exists if you have spent any time living in Europe) is at least partly rooted in their guilt over their own colonialist past. The level of hostility you seem to imply did not exist in 1947. All but the British voted for the UN Partition Plan. > **[United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine | The vote](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine#The_vote)** > > Passage of the resolution required a two-thirds majority of the valid votes, not counting abstaining and absent members, of the UN's then 57 member states. On 26 November, after filibustering by the Zionist delegation, the vote was postponed by three days. According to multiple sources, had the vote been held on the original set date, it would have received a majority, but less than the required two-thirds. Various compromise proposals and variations on a single state, includi Zionists launched a... The hostility you see today does not seem to have existed in 1947. I think some of it is the Palestinian refugee issue and some of it is blaming Israel for the radicalization and export of terrorism from the Middle East. In some cases anti-zionism has been around so long it has morphed into anti-semitism. > [@](#): > > Israel wanted her own state for that reason: a world largely hostile to Jews. There is some evidence that the hostility you speak of is more recent than you think. > [@](#): > > The US had been the only country to back Israel, until Obama was elected president. Obama has been looking for quick fixes so he will look good and is willing to dump Israel to attain that goal. If he was looking for an excuse to dump Israel, this would have been an opportunity. I doubt that US is going to abandon Israel in my lifetime but if things continue down this road without some resolution, we might abandon Israel in my son’s lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/804 "2010-06-04T05:26:17Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > The President of the Israel High Court has ruled on several petitions: [http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3898429,00.html](http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3898429,00.html) Conspiracy theories aside, from what we have seen and what we currently know, the soldiers were engaging in self defense after they were dropped in the soup. This doesn’t mean the world has to go “golly, OK I guess we’ll go home now” Israel screwed up in a big way and the penalty for that is probably going to be the loss of the blockade and an immense victory for Hamas… good job Likud, you make Hamas stronger every day. The only way anything good gets salvaged from these deaths is if the humanitarian side of hamas realizes that they should kick out the militant side and stage salt marches. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/805 "2010-06-04T05:28:34Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Just out of curiosity and under the assumption that this kind of information will fuel the consequences of the flotilla raid, can any gun experts or as **Marmite Lover** would call them, “Americans”, know how hard it is to deliver [4 gunshot wounds to the head](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/03/AR2010060301931.html?sid=ST2010060204691)? WTF?!?!? They killed an American? ☹ They also knocked out some 21 year old American girl’s eye. If she’s white, we might end up going to war.:eek: ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/806 "2010-06-04T06:47:25Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Just out of curiosity and under the assumption that this kind of information will fuel the consequences of the flotilla raid, can any gun experts or as **Marmite Lover** would call them, “Americans”, know how hard it is to deliver [4 gunshot wounds to the head](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/03/AR2010060301931.html?sid=ST2010060204691)? Yeah, I can comment on that. I’ve only shot at paper targets, [and watermelons, and other such interesting things] and have never had an opportunity to [or more correctly never had to] shoot an actual human, but that cite says 4 in the head and 1 in the chest. That is just plain impossible, at least if it was done by 1 shooter. Even the best trained shooter will be really damn lucky to do 3 rapid fire shots at the head actually getting all 3 hitting the head. The head moves when you shoot it. Hitting a moving target is hard. First shot hits head, head starts to move. Makes subsequent shots to the same head tend to miss. Additionally, people like the “eeevil isreali ninja seals” are trained to shoot to the body, primarily. “2 in the body, 1 in the head”. OOPS, sounds like 3 too many head-shots, and 1 too few body-shots. I call bullshit on that info! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/807 "2010-06-04T06:55:13Z")
Eh, the US hasn’t confirmed Turkish reports that he was shot 4 times in the head. I suppose it’s conceivable in a situation where the first shot was to the chest and he went down and then the shooter finished him off… but four shots? One would think that a double tap would be enough to put down most folks who aren’t gamma-irradiated. I suppose it’s possible, though I’m not sure what the implication is supposed to be. Once lethal force has been engaged in I’d assume that the situation was ‘shoot to kill’, one way or another. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/808 "2010-06-04T08:45:21Z")
> [@Weird\_With\_Words](#): > > It’s entirely possible world opinion of Israel is based entirely on anti-semitism. History will judge. However, we’re in the present day, and don’t have the luxury of waiting to see how we feel in the future. Things are steadily getting worse in that region, and eventually the world is going to decide it can’t abide the situation anymore, and will intervene. This intervention will almost certainly reflect, in some way, world opinion. > > So I think it’s in Israel’s best interests to worry about their public image, since that is what will ultimately decide their tenability as a nation. > > Let future historians worry about anti-semitism. Israel needs to start getting self-concious, and fast. Wrong. Israel does not have the luxury of having world opinion on their side. If the Hamas in Gaza get more arms to further bombard Israel or get the weaponry for longer range action, she will be destroyed. Israel must defend her own interest and public opinion be damned. Damuri Ajashi: > [@](#): > > The only way anything good gets salvaged from these deaths is if the humanitarian side of hamas realizes that they should kick out the militant side and stage salt marches. There is no humanitarian side of Hamas, vis a vis Israel. The aim of Hamas is the destruction of Israel. The PLO charter still calls for driving the Jews to the sea. It has not been amended. After an Oslo accord, Arafat said he amended it to comply with the accord. Only, he did not have that power. Although Israel did comply with many of the provisions, the Palestinians have yet to comply with any. > [@](#): > > There is some evidence that the hostility you speak of is more recent than you think. The Jews have been persecuted throughout history. Practically every country has barred them at one time or another. The Zionist movement, which began in the 19th century, entertained the idea of relocating to the USA, but decided that the only safe thing was to have their own state. The Rachel Corrie incident is a prime example of media antisemitic propaganda. The Palestinia boy being “killed” is another - when it turns out that it was staged. > [@](#): > > If he was looking for an excuse to dump Israel, this would have been an opportunity. I doubt that US is going to abandon Israel in my lifetime but if things continue down this road without some resolution, we might abandon Israel in my son’s lifetime. Obama just cannot dump Israel. In the last election, 80% of the Jews voted for him. How many do you think will do that again in that scenario? I want to remind you that 80% voted for him despite his known contacts with antisemites, including being friends with some. I’m not saying guilt by association, but some of that has to rub off. In addition, Israel helps the US militarily in certain new materiel and the US needs that help. “Dump” and “abandon” are not the right words, but there has been a swing in the US support of Israel. However, note that the Veep came out to support Israel’s handling of the blockade. Weird With Words: > [@](#): > > So I think it’s in Israel’s best interests to worry about their public image, since that is what will ultimately decide their tenability as a nation. > > Let future historians worry about anti-semitism. Israel needs to start getting self-concious, and fast. I addressed this before. Israel does not have that luxury. You cannot have a public image if you do not exist. The fact that Israel still exists is mainly due to her previous disregard for public image. If Hamas gets powerful enough weapons to reach deep into Israel, what chance would she have unless she uses her nuclear weapons? In that regard, I want to point out that Hamas has shot over 3500 projectiles into Israel with no single condemnation by the UN. However, the UN condemns Israel whatever she does. Squink: > [@](#): > > Of course, Palin is also the half term Governor who blames environmentalists for the gulf oil spill, so I don’t think anyone need give her much credence on the boardy shooty thing either. Just give credence to the facts. Incidentally, concerning a previous post you made ridiculing Netanyahu’s statements, I agree with him 100%. Honesty: > [@](#): > > Looks like the Rachel Corrie is sailing toward Gaza from Ireland. The Prime Minister of Ireland said that there will be consequences if the ship is harmed. The Rachel Corrie will arrive in Gaza this Saturday. What do you guys think? Will Israel attack the Rachel Corrie? Let it go to Gaza? Or will it sink it? Will anyone be killed? You can bet your bottom dollar that Israel will enforce the blockade, or at least attempt to enforce it. I wouldn’t say “attack.” She will enforce the blockade, as she did with five ships of the original blockade, ships that did not have weapons and did not attack the Israelis first. I think Israel learned from the first one how to handle any future attempts to break the blockade. She will have trained men ready this time. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/809 "2010-06-04T09:24:09Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by Sevastopol View Post > > Well you have to understand that Judaism, particularly in the US, can be fairly described as bifurcated: Into regular or traditional Judaism; and into an evil cult. > > [See **tomndebb** ’s note about inflammatory posts.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12520994#post12520994) This would be borderline jerkishness in any thread that wasn’t about religion, and this thread is not really about religion. So drop this, please. > … Yes, you’re quite right. Rather than going direct to conclusions there needs to be background and a development of argument. Sorry if you found the choice of words inapt. Hopefully others will present themselves in time. Back soonish - US media examples to follow. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/810 "2010-06-04T09:31:35Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > … > I doubt that US is going to abandon Israel in my lifetime but if things continue down this road without some resolution, we might abandon Israel in my son’s lifetime. Actually you would be surprised that these things happen faster than you’d imagine. The shift has been marked in a few short years, certainly since internet days began. Time was when minority views on Israel couldn’t get an airing anywhere in the US, however solidly founded in evidence those views were. Nowadays it’s no longer beyond imagining to apply normal, rational thought to the issue. Which, as you can see, could well spell a fast doom for the Israel project. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/811 "2010-06-04T09:33:03Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > WTF?!?!? They killed an American? ☹ > > They also knocked out some 21 year old American girl’s eye. If she’s white, we might end up going to war.:eek: > **[Vodpod – Video Editing Service for Creators](https://www.vodpod.com)** This only shows part of the attack on the girl. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/812 "2010-06-04T09:41:17Z")
[http://vodpod.com/watch/3765519-attacked-by-israel-again-uss-liberty-survivor-onboard-freedom-flotilla?c=kanan48&u=kanan48](http://vodpod.com/watch/3765519-attacked-by-israel-again-uss-liberty-survivor-onboard-freedom-flotilla?c=kanan48&u=kanan48) Jean Meadors, wife of Joe Meadors, 63, of Corpus Christi, Texas, a Navy veteran also on board a seized ship, said Monday evening that she believed he was safe, “but I’d like to hear that from him.” She said his exact status, whether under arrest, detention or otherwise, was unclear. Joe Meadors was serving aboard the U.S. Navy intelligence ship USS Liberty that was attacked by Israeli forces in 1967, killing 34 crew members. “He hasn’t had much luck with the Israelis,” Jean Meadors said. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/813 "2010-06-04T10:13:32Z")
Last live report from Mavi Marmara before communication was cut by IDF. Reporter says 2 dead. Organisers telling volunteers to go below decks and white flags raised. AFTER white flags raised a further 7 were shot dead. There is no sign of melee, no sign of iron bars being used to beat commandos. There is no sign of the fighting at this point in time taking place which the IDF video released shows. It seems that the volunteers stories are correct in that they all say the white flags were raised but the commandos kept shooting till they killed a further 7. It is believed that the first two killed were the ships captain and his mate who they stormed in the control room steering the ship but we will have that confirmed in due course. Reports say the commandos shot them dead as they refused to cut the engines and alter course. The captain was refusing telling them they were in International waters before being shot in the head. His report comes 30 secs into the video. > **[Roy Greenslade: Journalists on Gaza flotilla censored and arrested](https://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2010/jun/01/al-jazeera-press-freedom)** > > It was difficult, if not impossible, for journalists to report on the attack by Israeli forces on the aid ships attempting to break the Gaza blockade. But Al Jazeera's Jamal Elshayyal did manage to make this broadcast before communications were cut ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/814 "2010-06-04T10:20:04Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > …Obama just cannot dump Israel. In the last election, 80% of the Jews voted for him. How many do you think will do that again in that scenario? I want to remind you that 80% voted for him despite his known contacts with antisemites, including being friends with some. I’m not saying guilt by association, but some of that has to rub off. In addition, Israel helps the US militarily in certain new materiel and the US needs that help. “Dump” and “abandon” are not the right words, but there has been a swing in the US support of Israel. However, note that the Veep came out to support Israel’s handling of the blockade. > … Very glad you are here to remind us of this. It is just the votes and the lobby. As I say, how the times change. Once there was a pretense that Israel had strategic significance, was ‘the only democracy in the middle east’, an American ally, and other such blather. But everyone knew, even then, it was just religion and its sucker’s votes. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/815 "2010-06-04T10:28:33Z")
Your Veep Joe Biden is the US equivalent of the UK’s Prince Philip ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/816 "2010-06-04T11:02:03Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Very glad you are here to remind us of this. It is just the votes and the lobby. As I say, how the times change. Once there was a pretense that Israel had strategic significance, was ‘the only democracy in the middle east’, an American ally, and other such blather. But everyone knew, even then, it was just religion and its sucker’s votes. To say that Obama would lose the Jewish votes is not to negate that she is the only democracy in the Mideast. Votes is not equivalent to lobby. There is no Jewish lobby. But your usage of “other such blather” has shown your prejudice. Films from Al Jazeera, as it is reported in the Guardian, cannot be relied upon to be factual. I’m going to post here a youtube satire which, incidentally, shows some of the weapons used by these “activists.” [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG\_osOoVg](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg) ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/817 "2010-06-04T11:19:13Z")
That video just highlights how stupid Israel was to fall for such shit then. ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/818 "2010-06-04T13:48:32Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > That video just highlights how stupid Israel was to fall for such shit then. But it’s a perfect example of how tone-deaf the response to this incident has been from Israel and it’s supporters. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/819 "2010-06-04T13:53:37Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > The Jews have been persecuted throughout history. Practically every country has barred them at one time or another. The Zionist movement, which began in the 19th century, entertained the idea of relocating to the USA, but decided that the only safe thing was to have their own state. Who decided? And why were they given this privelige that doesn’t seem to have been granted to any other group of people? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/820 "2010-06-04T14:07:58Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Who decided? I believe that would be the British, since they controlled the area at the time. > [@](#): > > And why were they given this privelige that doesn’t seem to have been granted to any other group of people? I’m sure you’ve heard of the Holocaust. It was in all the papers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=40) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=42)