# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/841 "2010-06-04T18:30:22Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > What about all the Palestinians who get kicked out of their houses/off their land to make way for Israeli settlers? Hamas is firing rockets at Israel to defend themselves from ethnic cleansing that happened 60 years ago? Come on. That doesn’t make sense. > [@](#): > > Ethnic cleansing has to happen at 1948 speed/numbers for it to be called ethnic cleansing? I said nothing about the pace. I said if a population is increasing - and in Gaza, that is definitely happening - you’re going to have a tough time proving that ethnic cleansing is taking place. I hope it’s not too nitpicky if I point out that ethnic cleansing pretty much requires that there be less people at the end of the process. > [@](#): > > Scroll halfway down this page to “FACING A CROWD” and tell me this isn’t ethnic cleansing. It’s ethnic cleansing because a Palestinian woman is arguing with a group of Israelis, and their faces look mean in the picture? That’s a horrendous excuse for an argument. I conceeded already that they’re suffering and the blockade is inhumane. People are dying because of it, which is enough to convince me that major changes are needed. Refusing to let them rebuild their houses is unquestionably wrong. (If the thought of using the cement to build bunkers is such a concern, Israel should build houses for the Palestinians themselves. That way they know where the cement is going.) There’s a legit security concern but there has to be a more targeted way to accomplish it. Not to mention all the ill will this was bringing to Israel even before this incident. That said, the evidence that this qualifies as mass starvation or ethnic cleansing is pretty weak. This is why I usually skip threads like this. It’s obvious both sides need to swallow their pride and make major concessions or this is never going to end. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/842 "2010-06-04T18:34:03Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > What about all the Palestinians who get kicked out of their houses/off their land to make way for Israeli settlers? If you’re removing people of one ethnic group who have lived on an area of land for generations and allow people of one ethnic group to move in, that’s not ethnic cleansing? Ethnic cleansing has to happen at 1948 speed/numbers for it to be called ethnic cleansing? Scroll halfway down this page to “FACING A CROWD” and tell me this isn’t ethnic cleansing. You can come up with a euphemism like the Israelis do to describe this, like “population transfer” or “transfer” but it’s only a euphemism, isn’t it? > > [http://blogs.wsj.com/photojournal/2010/05/14/pictures-of-the-week-may-9-–-may-14/?mod=wsj\_india\_main](http://blogs.wsj.com/photojournal/2010/05/14/pictures-of-the-week-may-9-%E2%80%93-may-14/?mod=wsj_india_main) Just a reminder – this thread is about **Gaza**. The only “population transfer” that occurred **in gaza** was the removal of 8000 **Jewish Israelis** from settlements in the gaza Strip, in 2005 ([Israeli disengagement from the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%27s_unilateral_disengagement_plan)). ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/843 "2010-06-04T18:50:27Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > Yeah, I can comment on that. I’ve only shot at paper targets, …sounds like 3 too many head-shots, and 1 too few body-shots. I call bullshit on that info! Thanks. Sounds like aspsects of his wounds were exaggerated. It did not seem likely to me that you could shoot somebody four times in the head in such a chaotic situation. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Eh, the US hasn’t confirmed Turkish reports that he was shot 4 times in the head. > I suppose it’s conceivable in a situation where the first shot was to the chest and he went down and then the shooter finished him off… but four shots? One would think that a double tap would be enough to put down most folks who aren’t gamma-irradiated. I suppose it’s possible, though I’m not sure what the implication is supposed to be. Once lethal force has been engaged in I’d assume that the situation was ‘shoot to kill’, one way or another. I doubt the US government will look into it much, the kid has not lived here for 15 years. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/844 "2010-06-04T19:00:00Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > either way in that report there were 2 dead and white flags were raised. White flags aren’t magic. Raising a white flag while instead of allowing your vessel to be boarded, you use lethal force on the borders means that your white flag is just a piece of cloth. > [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > His report comes 30 secs into the video. > [One journalist beats Israeli censorship on the Gaza flotilla attack | Media | The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2010/jun/01/al-jazeera-press-freedom) And says not one word you have alleged about the use of the white flag It doesnt’ even touch on most of yoru claims. In fact, it shows that you are claiming at least one thing that is not true: he states that the white flags were raised _after_ there had already been deaths. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/845 "2010-06-04T19:05:54Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I hope it’s not too nitpicky if I point out that ethnic cleansing pretty much requires that there be less people at the end of the process. That’s not my understanding of it. My understanding has always been that in means forcibly removing an ethnic group from somewhere; the forcible removal is what makes it ethnic cleansing, not the killing. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/846 "2010-06-04T19:14:40Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s not my understanding of it. My understanding has always been that in means forcibly removing an ethnic group from somewhere; the forcible removal is what makes it ethnic cleansing, not the killing. Correct, and that’s the difference between ethnic cleansing and genocide. The former doesn’t have to involve killing, although it can. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/847 "2010-06-04T19:23:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s not my understanding of it. My understanding has always been that in means forcibly removing an ethnic group from somewhere; the forcible removal is what makes it ethnic cleansing, not the killing. Fair enough. I hadn’t heard a clear distinction drawn between ethnic cleansing and genocide; I thought the difference was just in scale. Still, by that standard you could argue there was ethnic cleansing in Gaza decades ago - a point I haven’t actually argued against - but you couldn’t say it’s happening now. Palestinians are not being kicked out of Gaza and sent somewhere else. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/848 "2010-06-04T19:26:51Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Eh, the US hasn’t confirmed Turkish reports that he was shot 4 times in the head. But he was American? If so then there will at least be SOME pressure for an American team to be involved in the investigation. > [@barbitu8](#): > > Wrong. Israel does not have the luxury of having world opinion on their side. If the Hamas in Gaza get more arms to further bombard Israel or get the weaponry for longer range action, she will be destroyed. Israel must defend her own interest and public opinion be damned. You don’t really mean that Hamas can ever DESTROY Israel (it wants to but it can’t can it? Hamas is not an existential threat to Israel is it?). > [@](#): > > Damuri Ajashi: There is no humanitarian side of Hamas, vis a vis Israel. The aim of Hamas is the destruction of Israel. I hear you but if there is a humanitarian side of hamas vis-a-vis Palestinians, I think that they might conclude that salt marches and standing in front of tanks with a bunch of flowers might be the best way to fight Israel. > [@](#): > > The Jews have been persecuted throughout history. Practically every country has barred them at one time or another. The Zionist movement, which began in the 19th century, entertained the idea of relocating to the USA, but decided that the only safe thing was to have their own state. I can understand that kind of thinking in 1948, in 2010 not as much (but still a little bit). > [@](#): > > Obama just cannot dump Israel. In the last election, 80% of the Jews voted for him. How many do you think will do that again in that scenario? I want to remind you that 80% voted for him despite his known contacts with antisemites, including being friends with some. The Jewish vote in the US has never been as important as Jewish fundraising, just like the Asian vote has never been quite as important as Asian fundraising > [@](#): > > If Hamas gets powerful enough weapons to reach deep into Israel, what chance would she have unless she uses her nuclear weapons? How about a full fledged invasion, a blitzkrieg. > [@](#): > > Honesty: You can bet your bottom dollar that Israel will enforce the blockade, or at least attempt to enforce it. I wouldn’t say “attack.” She will enforce the blockade, as she did with five ships of the original blockade, ships that did not have weapons and did not attack the Israelis first. I think Israel learned from the first one how to handle any future attempts to break the blockade. She will have trained men ready this time. What if Turkey sends naval vessels (which thankfully looks like is not going to take place). > [@Sevastopol](#): > > Nowadays it’s no longer beyond imagining to apply normal, rational thought to the issue. Which, as you can see, could well spell a fast doom for the Israel project. Did you just say rational thought? The irrationality is a bit more balanced now but this whole thing is nucking futz. > [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > [Vodpod – Video Editing Service for Creators](http://vodpod.com/watch/3763200-u-s-student-loses-eye-after-israel-fires-on-west-bank-protest-june-3-2010-democracy-now) > > This only shows part of the attack on the girl. Americans become a lot more sensitive to injustice when you put an American face on the victim. > [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > “He hasn’t had much luck with the Israelis,” Jean Meadors said. No kidding. > [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Last live report from Mavi Marmara before communication was cut by IDF. I think we all want to see more complete footage. > [@barbitu8](#): > > There is no Jewish lobby. Well there is a pro-Israel lobby, AIPAC. Thats probably what they meant. > [@Marley23](#): > > I believe that would be the British, since they controlled the area at the time. I am waiting for Finn Again to jump down your throat for saying this the way he jumped down my throat. > [@](#): > > I’m sure you’ve heard of the Holocaust. It was in all the papers. Got donkey punched for saying this as well. > [@](#): > > Now I get why the US and Israel hate Al Jazeera. The US doesn’t hate al Jazeera but after decades of thinking that the middle east crisis was a very onesided issue we are just getting used to the idea that Palestinians are not genetically anti-semetic or inclined to engage in terrorism. Then 9/11 happened and al Jazeera seemed to have an inside track to OBL. > [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Hamas I am sure are sitting back now taking a back seat in all of this. The worst thing hamas could do right now is engage in suicide bombing and justify Israel’s paranoia. > [@Marley23](#): > > While I am terrified at the thought of this turning into The Starvation Debate, Pt. II, I don’t think you can say a group is being ethnically cleansed if their population is increasing and they are living longer. That’s apart from describing the original creation of the country as ethnic cleansing in the first place. Israel’s actions are inhumane and I don’t want to downplay that. But while they are suffering, these people are not being ethnically cleansed or starved to death. It doesn’t totally invalidate your point because both sides have to change, but I don’t think the facts support this language and the inaccurate language doesn’t help your argument. I think ethnic cleansing is different than genocide. Ethnic cleansing is often associated with population transfers, you aren’t necessarily killing everyone in your neighborhood, you are driving out the folks you don’t like and killing them if they won’t leave quietly. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/849 "2010-06-04T19:39:24Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Fair enough. I hadn’t heard a clear distinction drawn between ethnic cleansing and genocide There are still other differences, and the 4th GC explicitly authorizes interning people. So interning people isn’t ethnic cleansing. Likewise, as the majority of land in question in not privately owned, removing people from land they do not own is ethnic cleansing. To say nothing of the fictitious context of Dick’s original claims. He claims that the Palestinians were “ethnically cleansed into” “22% of historic Palestine”. Roughly 20-25% of Israel’s population is made up of Palestinian Arabs and their descendants. They are also a substantial population in Jordan, which in fact is a hell of a lot more than 22% of “historic Palestine”, by which I take it dick really means Mandate Palestine. And, of course, the entire claim was made in the context of alleging that the _entirety of the West Bank and Gaza were part of a “slow-motion” program of ethnic cleansing._ We’re back to a Conspiracy Theory talking about Genius Fools; the Israelis are nefariously trying to remove all of the Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza, and they do this by not removing them and watching as their numbers expand year by year. Because they are just that committed to ethnic cleansing. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/850 "2010-06-04T19:46:01Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Doesn’t this go both ways though. Don’t the Palestinians have a right to defend themselves against a 40 year military occupation, the slow-motion ethnic cleansing of the 22% of historic Palestine the Palestinians were ethnically cleansed into, and so on? It’s Israel who are the aggressors here, they’re the ones carrying out the occupation of Palestinian lands/blockade of Gaza/building illegal settlements and so on. In terms of civilian deaths there’s never been a period since 1948 when Israeli deaths have come remotely close to the number of Palestinian deaths. So don’t Palestinians have a right to defend themselves too, or does the right of defence only apply to aggressors? Yeah but its really HARD to defend your self against a militarily superior occupier with force of arms. Reverting to terrorism only makes the occupier’s use of force seem legitimate. I don’t see how Palestine wins unless they shame the Israelis into acting humanely (where is the Palestinian Gandhi?). Put a mirror up to them and show them what their paranoia has turned them into. Then you won’t have to drive Israel out, they will apologize and invite you into their homes. [quote=“Marley23, post:841, topic:540765”] Hamas is firing rockets at Israel to defend themselves from ethnic cleansing that happened 60 years ago? Come on. That doesn’t make sense.] Hamas is firing rockets because 60 years of this has created several generations of angry young men. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I doubt the US government will look into it much, the kid has not lived here for 15 years. I got the impression from Hillary Clinton that the current US position demanding an Israeli led investigation of the events on memorial day might turn into something more. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > White flags aren’t magic. Raising a white flag while instead of allowing your vessel to be boarded, you use lethal force on the borders means that your white flag is just a piece of cloth. I agree, we need more information. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/851 "2010-06-04T20:06:39Z")
xtisme’s post beat my reply and I don’t have much to add to that, except Jews have been living on that land since biblical times but in the more fertile lands near the Jordan River. In the late 19th century, there were two large influxes of Jews, who bought the barren, desert lands and tried to make a living on it. The first influx got sick with malaria, yellow fever, etc., and gave up. The second influx was more successful. Some are under the misapprehension that the Romans eliminated the Jews from the area. The Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Second Temple in 70 CE. The Zealot movement arose in opposition to Roman rule, but Masada, the last Zealot holdout, fell in 73 CE. However, a new Judaism developed, post-Temple. The synagogue rose as the locus of Jewish worship. The Second Jewish Revolt (132-135), led by Simeon Bar-Kohkba, ended in disaster. The Romans forbade the Jews from living in Jerusalem and its environs, but the center of Jewish life moved north to Galilee, although many Jews moved to other lands. The Dead Seas Scrolls were discovered in 1947and the years following near the Qumran caves, south of Galilee. Most scholars believe they were the works of a Jewish sect called the Essenes. That period of settlement was from 134 BCE to around 68 CE. I digressed a little to give you a little background of the area and to show that Jews have lived in some of the area since biblical times. In the late 19th century, at the time of the two immigrations, Zionism arose. Theodor Herzl, although a journalist, obtained funds from various Jewish philanthopists, and got the funds to buy the lands from, for the most part, from the Ottoman empire, headed by the Egyptian ruler at the time. For those lands to which title was determined to be in individuals, the land was purchased from the individuals, who were glad to get rid of the barren lands. The Jews irrigated the lands and the rest was history until after the Holocaust. After WWI, Britain, who held the League of Nations Mandate over the former Ottoman empire, agreed to give some of the land to the Jews so they could build a homeland. Due to Arab influence, the implentation of that was delayed until after WWII. The UN divided the land between the Jews and the Arabs. The Arabs did not, and still do not, want a Jewish state in their midst. (BTW, yesterday I saw a newsreel concerning protestors in California. When interviewed, one protestor said she did not mind Jews living there, but they cannot have their own state. But the whole purpose is to have a state wherein the Jews can feel safe.) Israel immediately declared statehood, but the Arabs did not, as they wanted the whole pie, and still do. Arab leaders were the first to leave the area designated for the Jewish state and soon implored the Arabs living there to move out temporary. The Arab leaders believed it would be temporary as the combined Arab forces would soon drive the Jews to the sea. Most Arabs did, but some remained, especially in Haifa. 20% of Israel are Arabs with all the rights of other Israeli citizens. Some of those Arabs hold political offices. This is not a debate as to whether some of the Arabs were driven out (one poster referred to the “ethic cleansing” in 1948; even if some were driven out - a question still no settled - this was just a small percentage of the Arabs who left.) I’ve merely given this short synopsis for the benefit of the few who are completely ignorant of the history, as indicated by their posts. Whether there was some “ethnic cleansing” at that time is not relevant now. 700,000 Arabs fled and became “refugees,” the majority of whom no other Arab country would take in. As I’ve posted before, and others have mentioned, Israel has lived up to some of the Oslo accords, but the “Palestines” have not acceded to any, including their charter to drive the Jews to the sea. Gaza and the West bank (which Transjordan, now Jordan, occupied during the 1967 war, which she belatedly entered on the false belief that the Arabs were winning) were then occupied by Israel. Israel fought a defensive war in 1967. Since it was a defensive war, she is not required to automatically give the land back, but she can negotiate for the return of the land. However, she forcibly evicted her occupants from the Gaza strip so that the Palestinians can build a society, but instead, as we all know, Hamas run the Palestinian election as to which of the two Palestinian parties, Hamas or Fatah, should govern the land, and Hamas fortified the land to bombard Israel on a daily basis. Despite Israel finally going in to eliminate the constant bombardment, Hamas continues to bombard Israe. So, I ask, where was the UN, and where is the UN, all the time Israel has been attacked? Not a peep from the UN. But as soon as Israel is seen by some Arabs as violating international agreements, the UN is up in arms. In many cases, the USA was the only nation to object. Sometimes England joined the USA. I might also add, and so I will, that the Palestinians label the entire area “Palestine.” They have not acknowledged the Jewish state. I will also add that Egypt joined the blockade, as she, along with many of the neighboring Arab states, are terrified of Hamas. Privately, they root for Israel, but will never publicly admit that. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/852 "2010-06-04T20:09:27Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Hamas is firing rockets at Israel to defend themselves from ethnic cleansing that happened 60 years ago? Come on. That doesn’t make sense. > I said nothing about the pace. I said if a population is increasing - and in Gaza, that is definitely happening - you’re going to have a tough time proving that ethnic cleansing is taking place. I hope it’s not too nitpicky if I point out that ethnic cleansing pretty much requires that there be less people at the end of the process. > It’s ethnic cleansing because a Palestinian woman is arguing with a group of Israelis, and their faces look mean in the picture? That’s a horrendous excuse for an argument. > > I conceeded already that they’re suffering and the blockade is inhumane. People are dying because of it, which is enough to convince me that major changes are needed. Refusing to let them rebuild their houses is unquestionably wrong. (If the thought of using the cement to build bunkers is such a concern, Israel should build houses for the Palestinians themselves. That way they know where the cement is going.) There’s a legit security concern but there has to be a more targeted way to accomplish it. Not to mention all the ill will this was bringing to Israel even before this incident. That said, the evidence that this qualifies as mass starvation or ethnic cleansing is pretty weak. > > This is why I usually skip threads like this. It’s obvious both sides need to swallow their pride and make major concessions or this is never going to end. It’s ethnic cleansing because she was kicked out of her house by Israeli settlers. One ethnic group is removing another ethnic group house by house, farm by farm from areas of Palestinian territory that they want to take over. It’s an unquestionable fact that for decades the Israelis have dispossesed Palestinians of their homes and land in areas that the international community and international law via UN resolutions agree are Palestinian territory. So if this isn’t slow-motion ethnic cleansing, what is it? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/853 "2010-06-04T20:10:24Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Hamas is firing rockets because 60 years of this has created several generations of angry young men. _Obviously._ But **Dick Dastardly** said the Palestinians had a right to defend themselves. Lashing out at someone because you’re angry isn’t self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/854 "2010-06-04T20:14:14Z")
> [@Noone\_Special](#): > > Just a reminder – this thread is about **Gaza**. The only “population transfer” that occurred **in gaza** was the removal of 8000 **Jewish Israelis** from settlements in the gaza Strip, in 2005 ([Israeli disengagement from the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%27s_unilateral_disengagement_plan)). \*\*A top Israeli official has claimed that Ariel Sharon’s Gaza withdrawal plan was deliberately formulated to block peace negotiations with Yasser Arafat. \*\* “The significance of the plan is the freezing of the peace process,” Dov Weisglass told Haaretz newspaper, adding the US had given its backing. Palestinian statehood, refugees and the status of Jerusalem had effectively been dropped off the agenda, he said. > **[BBC NEWS | Middle East | Sharon plan 'blocked peace talks'](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3720176.stm)** > > A top Israeli official says the significance of withdrawing from Gaza is to stop a political settlement with Palestinians. Weisglass, who was one of the initiators of the disengagement plan, added, “And when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with authority and permission. All with a presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress.” “The disengagement is actually formaldehyde,” he said. “It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians.” Asked why the disengagement plan had been hatched, Weisglass replied: “Because in the fall of 2003 we understood that everything was stuck. And although by the way the Americans read the situation, the blame fell on the Palestinians, not on us, Arik [Sharon] grasped that this state of affairs could not last, that they wouldn’t leave us alone, wouldn’t get off our case. Time was not on our side. **There was international erosion, internal erosion. Domestically, in the meantime, everything was collapsing. The economy was stagnant, and the Geneva Initiative had gained broad support.** And then we were hit with the letters of officers and letters of pilots and letters of commandos [refusing to serve in the territories]. These were not weird kids with green ponytails and a ring in their nose with a strong odor of grass. These were people like Spector’s group [Yiftah Spector, a renowned Air Force pilot who signed the pilot’s letter]. Really our finest young people.” Weisglass does not deny that the main achievement of the Gaza plan is the freezing of the peace process in a “legitimate manner.” “That is exactly what happened,” he said. “You know, the term `peace process’ is a bundle of concepts and commitments. The peace process is the establishment of a Palestinian state with all the security risks that entails. The peace process is the evacuation of settlements, it’s the return of refugees, it’s the partition of Jerusalem. And all that has now been frozen… what I effectively agreed to with the Americans was that part of the settlements would not be dealt with at all, and the rest will not be dealt with until the Palestinians turn into Finns. That is the significance of what we did.” > **[Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos](https://www.yahoo.com/)** > > Latest news coverage, email, free stock quotes, live scores and video are just the beginning. Discover more every day at Yahoo! ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/855 "2010-06-04T20:15:03Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > It’s ethnic cleansing because she was kicked out of her house by Israeli settlers. One ethnic group is removing another ethnic group house by house, farm by farm from areas of Palestinian territory that they want to take over. It’s an unquestionable fact that for decades the Israelis have dispossesed Palestinians of their homes and land in areas that the international community and international law via UN resolutions agree are Palestinian territory. So if this isn’t slow-motion ethnic cleansing, what is it? I question that “unquestionable fact.” The lands you are apparently referring to are lands Israel occupied after the 1967 war, but as I noted above, that was a defensive war, and Israel has not “dispossesed” any Palestinians. The lands Israel developed was barren land and, at least initially, far away from Palestinian homes. She has not evicted anybody in the occupied lands. On the contrary, she has evicted her own citizens from Gaza. > [@](#): > > For Immediate Release > June 2nd, 2010 18:30 > IDF Spokesperson and CoGAT Update: > Hamas Refuses to Allow Flotilla Aid into Gaza Strip > > As of right now, the State of Israel has loaded 20 trucks with various types > of aid found onboard the flotilla. Expired medication, clothing, blankets, > some medical equipment and toys were among the aid found on the ships. > > Unfortunately, the Hamas terror organization is unwilling to accept the > cargo and the trucks filled with humanitarian aid have not been allowed to > enter the Gaza Strip. It appears that Hamas is in fact stopping the transfer > of the humanitarian aid. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/856 "2010-06-04T20:19:44Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > I question that “unquestionable fact.” The lands you are apparently referring to are lands Israel occupied after the 1967 war, but as I noted above, that was a defensive war, and Israel has not “dispossesed” any Palestinians. The lands Israel developed was barren land and, at least initially, far away from Palestinian homes. She has not evicted anybody in the occupied lands. On the contrary, she has evicted her own citizens from Gaza. So Israel hasn’t built settlements all over Palestinian land then? Settlements that the international community including America say are illegal? ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/857 "2010-06-04T20:26:55Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > So Israel hasn’t built settlements all over Palestinian land then? Settlements that the international community including America say are illegal? I didn’t say they did not build settlements. I said they did not evict anyone. The settlements were built on empty land. Even if “the international community” says they are illegal, they are not. The law is as I previously stated, but, as in many things, the actual law is ignored, especially when the UN and the “international community” is concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/858 "2010-06-04T20:29:50Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > I didn’t say they did not build settlements. I said they did not evict anyone. The settlements were built on empty land. Even if “the international community” says they are illegal, they are not. The law is as I previously stated, but, as in many things, the actual law is ignored, especially when the UN and the “international community” is concerned. What about the woman in the photograph? Did she not get evicted? There aren’t thousands of similar cases? And international law says that the settlments are illegal. [http://www.btselem.org/english/Settlements/International\_Law.asp](http://www.btselem.org/english/Settlements/International_Law.asp) Doesn’t international law apply to Israel? ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/859 "2010-06-04T20:34:24Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > If Hamas/Gaza shall unleash the full fury of her military force, how many armored divisions is she likely to use? **Elucidator** –please.., this ain’t your usual tone. You’re posts are always articulate and usually pretty reasonable. Quoting Hitler in a thread about Jews is a little, well,… disappointing.And not a very effective way to make your point. And the point you seem to me trying to make is also a little, well,..scary.Or can’t you recognize evil when you see it? Are you really saying it’s legitimate for Gaza’s military to aim their artillery and explosives at Israeli apartments and schoolyards every day and night for 5 years? That it’s not terrorism, and it’s all legitimate, because they organize their armored divisions into small squads of terrorists, and not nice, big,uniformed platoons of tanks and artillery? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/860 "2010-06-04T20:35:54Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > So Israel hasn’t built settlements all over Palestinian land then? Settlements that the international community including America say are illegal? Not in Gaza. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=42) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=44)