# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 45
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/881 "2010-06-04T21:22:19Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > …After WWI, Britain, who held the League of Nations Mandate over the former Ottoman empire, agreed to give some of the land to the Jews so they could build a homeland. Due to Arab influence, the implentation of that was delayed until after WWII. … Yes, and the Empire was giving away other people’s land. As we often found out, oddy enough the colonised didn’t much care for that, and it had long-term bad consequences, although under imperial logic of the moment it seemed like a good idea. It’s hardly surprising that a traditional and long marginal population was not enthusiastic about a huge influx of foreign settlers, in their eyes closely tied and allied to the Imperial power, with a view of creating their own homeland. One can engage in tendentious argument about Ottoman laws, but I should think looking at American reactions to Mexican immigration in Arizona rather illustrates the very human reaction. > [@](#): > > .. > Arab leaders were the first to leave the area designated for the Jewish state and soon implored the Arabs living there to move out temporary. The Arab leaders believed it would be temporary as the combined Arab forces would soon drive the Jews to the sea. Most Arabs did, but some remained, especially in Haifa. 20% of Israel are Arabs with all the rights of other Israeli citizens. Some of those Arabs hold political offices. This is not a debate as to whether some of the Arabs were driven out (one poster referred to the “ethic cleansing” in 1948; even if some were driven out - a question still no settled - this was just a small percentage of the Arabs who left.) … Whether there was some “ethnic cleansing” at that time is not relevant now. 700,000 Arabs fled and became “refugees,” the majority of whom no other Arab country would take in. Extraordinary one has to put refugees in scare quotes. Utterly unnecessary scare quotes. I note that the myth of the Arab leadership calling for Arabs to leave Israel is repeated. That has been falsified for a good long time by Israeli historians themselves. There was indeed ethnic cleansing, and the percentage was significant by impartial accounts. But this just underlines the sickness that underlies all the discussion around the subject, both sides (or influential portions of both) are so deeply committed to denying any legitimacy to the other at all. Arabs of course do the same thing, mirror image. > [@](#): > > As I’ve posted before, and others have mentioned, Israel has lived up to some of the Oslo accords, but the “Palestines” have not acceded to any, including their charter to drive the Jews to the sea. Again the scare quotes. Palestinians in rational discourse, not aggressive ultra nationalist propaganda and spin, which the majority of this note represents, do not need scare quotes. this kind of discourse is merely a polite mirror of the ugly anti-Israel rhetoric questioning the Jewishness of “European Jews”… Both are ugly bits of tribalistic racism. In any case, rather off the topic. The reality is that Israel has engaged in something that is, to use that fun little de Talleyrand quote, “worse than a crime, a blunder” here. It has now been several days and the highly selective release of video by the Israelis and the continued detention of at least some journalists rather suggests that the story line is less black and white than their version (it seems self-evident it is also not in accordance with the emotional renditions of the activists either). At the same time, the incident reminds one of The Exodus incident - in which peaceful-ish Jewish passengers also fought back against what they viewed as unjust action by the British navy: > [@](#): > > [The boarding was challenged by the passengers (the ship was in international waters where the Royal Navy had no jurisdiction), and so the British soldiers used force. Two passengers and one of the crews, 1st mate William Bernstein, a U.S. sailor from San Francisco, died as a result of bludgeoning and several dozen others were injured before the ship was taken over.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Exodus) The parallels are interesting, of course imperfect. But that was a blunder by the UK, this was a blunder by Israel. This comment from the US makes the point: > [@](#): > > [At one time, Israelis understood counterinsurgency much better than Americans, which is why U.S. officers looked to their Israeli counterparts for advice in the early years of the Iraq war. At one time, the Israelis understood that self-interest demanded subtlety, restraint, and attention to perception. As others have pointed out, these qualities have been disappearing from Israeli strategy and tactics, and the current right-wing government seems determined to isolate and destroy itself with the unbending principle of self-defense.](http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/georgepacker/2010/06/gaza-flotilla.html) As well as this: > [@](#): > > [What is so shocking about this most recent fiasco, though, is not just the lack of any coherent strategy. (If you’re trying to ensure Iran does not become nuclear-armed, might you not want to ensure strong relations with the United States and other key allies – Europe, Turkey – in pursuit of that goal? Wouldn’t you avoid anything that got in the way of that existential challenge?) What is most shocking is the tactical and operational incompetence of the Israelis. Check out the comments in this post and read the reactions – many of them from U.S. and allied officers, who make up a large portion of this blog’s readership – chuckling at the expense of the Israelis. When did the IDF – the elite units in the IDF, even – become such a laughingstock?](http://www.cnas.org/blogs/abumuqawama/2010/06/two-thoughts-israel.html) I’d suggest that Israel, by falling into a blind habit of treating every portion of its security and neighbourhood problems as if it were an existential threat (and not all are, only a few), has backed itself into blindly self-destructive habits. The Gaza blockade, [which is so painfully clearly collective punishment of the population for voting in Hamas](http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/06/03/what_exactly_is_the_blockade_of_gaza), is like this event, “worse than a crime, a blunder.” ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/882 "2010-06-04T21:25:45Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > No of course not, prior to your link I thought the 4 wounds to the head was something his Dad and brother had said. They could have been mistaken or exaggerating. You really must know, I am an American, and according to your prior posts I am an expert in fire arms. Given my expertise due to the location of my birth certificate I just could not easily believe the kid took 4 shots to the head without it occuring after he was gravely wounded or dead. > > Between the other poster confirming how difficult it is and the Turkish medical examiner’s report (after all, if it is the official report of a Turkish medical examiner then I see no reason to ignore it.), I am convinced it happened after he was wounded, and am curious as to why this many wounds occurred. > > Anyways thanks for the link, I hadn’t seen it. no problem Obviously the accounts from the activists are true when they said they saw commandos aiming and firing at already wounded men lying on the deck. That was why they raised the white flags and one doctor got the loudhailer to tell the commandos to stop shooting as they had all surrendered and that was minutes into the attack when they saw a few lying shot on the deck but they kept on shooting regardless. You don’t get 4 bullets to the head unless you are already dead from the first one. IDF liars are all over the media here trying to justify this and thousands of Israeli’s are out in the streets of Tel Aviv in support of the attack. It’s quite unbelievable. It must be quite disturbing to Erdogan to see this display when he has buried 9 dead yesterday and today and many more are in hospital with bullet wounds. What can you do with these monsters I ask you. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/883 "2010-06-04T21:39:02Z")
The nine victims autopsy report just released. Cengiz Alquyz, 42 Four gunshot wounds: back of head, right side of face, back, left leg Ibrahim Bilgen, 60 Four gunshot wounds: right chest, back, right hip, right temple Cegdet Kiliclar, 38 One gunshot wound: middle of forehead Furkan Dogan Five gunshot wounds: nose, back, back of head, left leg, left ankle Sahri Yaldiz Four gunshot wounds: left chest, left leg, right leg twice Aliheyder Bengi Six gunshot wounds: left chest, belly, right arm, right leg, left hand twice Cetin Topcuoglu Three gunshot wounds: back of head, left side, right belly Cengiz Songur One gunshot wound: front of neck Necdet Yildirim Two gunshot wounds: right shoulder, left back ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/884 "2010-06-04T21:39:43Z")
[http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/gaza-militants-fire-four-qassam-rockets-at-israel-1.294108](http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/gaza-militants-fire-four-qassam-rockets-at-israel-1.294108) A link to the continual bombardment. You refer to one of my posts as being from a Jewish site, but you posted numerous Palestinian cites. BTW, my quote was from an old Honest Reporting cite. The American/Turk who was killed was hailed as a matyr by his relatives, which means that there was expectation that he would be killed. Sorry, I lost the cite, but it’s current news. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/885 "2010-06-04T21:45:25Z")
Cegdet Kiliclar seems to be the one that the female activist who was interviewed yesterday said that she was standing beside him as he was filming the commandos dropping down and he was shot inches from her in the middle of the head. Can’t be sure but the bullet matches her story from yesterday. He was obviously a cameraman, and had to be eliminated, as was Hassan Ghani reporter who was as he said in the crosshairs of a commando but managed to open a door to the inside of the ship to escape being shot. If this is what they do to the foreign activists just imagine what the autopsy reports must show for the Palestinians! And they get shot every day and until now no one seemed to bother. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/886 "2010-06-04T21:46:40Z")
I checked and American TVs are pretty much all oil-spill all the time these days. This latest skirmish in the endless Israeli-Arab showdown was been front-page news in the papers and on blogs for a couple of days but certainly not on TV. On the day it happened I watched ABC and it was the third story. Oil-drenched pelicans are trumping commandos and angry sign-wavers nine times out of ten. Bad timing. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/887 "2010-06-04T21:49:12Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Can’t be sure but the bullet matches her story from yesterday. Except it doesn’t, because we have footage that shows the commandos rappelling down and not firing. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/888 "2010-06-04T22:13:06Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > … > > The American/Turk who was killed was hailed as a matyr by his relatives, which means that there was expectation that he would be killed. Sorry, I lost the cite, but it’s current news. No, that means the relatives are grieving and rationalising. At least to anyone not fundamentally prejudiced. No bloody wonder this has turned into a fiasco for Israel with this kind of thinking so dominant. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/889 "2010-06-04T22:35:30Z")
Deleted – non-working live link to the Rachel Corrie ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/890 "2010-06-04T22:39:02Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Except it doesn’t, because we have footage that shows the commandos rappelling down and not firing. You’ve seen no such footage and no such footage is available, there is not a complete video of the event from start to finish. You are referring to a propaganda clip provided by the IDF, they have the complete video and until you see that, you can’t really claim to have seen anything or say that we have footage that disputes what eyewitnesses have said that has happened. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/891 "2010-06-04T22:51:55Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > You’ve seen no such footage and no such footage is available, there is not a complete video of the event from start to finish. You are referring to a propaganda clip provided by the IDF, they have the complete video and until you see that, you can’t really claim to have seen anything or say that we have footage that disputes what eyewitnesses have said that has happened. True, [note Reporters Sans Frontiers note on the apparently continued detention of journalists on the ship and non-release of their film, etc.](http://en.rsf.org/israel-at-least-60-journalists-were-02-06-2010,37646.html) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/892 "2010-06-04T22:53:15Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > You’ve seen no such footage and no such footage is available Sure we do, and you admit it before you try to deny it because its “IDF propaganda”. We have video footage that shows that the IDF commandos were not shooting anybody as they rappelled down, even though they could have assisted their comrades who were being hammered with crowbars. Your claim is essentially that IDF troops started rappelling down while randomly shooting people, and then stopped shooting people and let themselves be brutally beaten with crowbars and, in fact, re-holstered their sidearms and kept using their paintball guns. And that even the reinforcements who were repelling down also weren’t firing at anybody. In order for your claim to be at all plausible, trained commandos would have had to have descended onto the deck, firing while they did. And then let themselves get surrounded by people using lethal force. And then have had their backup descend with ineffective weapons. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/893 "2010-06-04T23:01:27Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > First of all, who cares if they’re the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinians. They’re still anti-Israeli terrorists. And if they haven’t fired any rockets for some time now, that’s a good sign the blockade is working, isn’t it? Not particularly. But one should care because of the politics. Slapping the label terrorist on your enemies may be emotionally satisfying, but doesn’t get one far. As we learned with Sinn Fien and the IRA, adult nations know how to proportionally engage. This [editorial from FT’s Stephens](http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a3936062-6f3d-11df-9f43-00144feabdc0.html) is apropos of how the civilised world sees this event, whatever the rather sad spin by IDF to justify its incompetence and grotesquely excessive use of force due to said incomptence: > [@](#): > > Benjamin Netanyahu’s government sees the world through the prism of force. Only when Israel’s enemies have been crushed will it contemplate talking to them. Power has thus become the enemy rather than an instrument of peace. A rhetorical willingness to negotiate has been emptied of meaning. > > This week’s attack on the flotilla of ships carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza fits a familiar pattern. The killing of nine activists by the commandos who boarded the Turkish-flagged lead ship was doubtless unintentional. But the nature of the raid testified to a deep contempt on the part of the Israeli administration for the norms of international behaviour. > > … > > **At first glance, the most startling thing about the assault on the aid convoy was that it was so badly bungled. Yet even that was not entirely surprising. The days when Israel’s military was lauded for precision as well as prowess have long passed. Recent wars in Lebanon and Gaza have been military failures and public relations disasters. The assassination in Dubai of a Hamas leader exposed the carelessness as much as the ruthlessness of Israel’s secret services.** > > The international outrage at this week’s incident has rightly focused attention on the blockade by which Israel has imprisoned 1.5m Palestinians in the crowded strip of land that is Gaza. > > The suffering inflicted by this collective confinement has been well documented by the United Nations and by aid agencies. Palestinians are denied vital medical supplies as well as adequate food and water. An embargo on building materials means that neighbourhoods reduced to rubble during the 2008-09 invasion remain just that – rubble. > > The blockade has left Israel in breach of yet another UN resolution and, even before this week, had severely damaged its most important regional relationship. Israel’s ties with Turkey long represented an important strategic bridge to the Muslim world. The bridge has been blown up by the deaths and injuries inflicted on Turkish citizens. > > All this, of course, will have made it harder for the US and its allies to secure support in the UN Security Council for more sanctions against Iran. Mr Netanyahu … treatment of Palestinians weakens efforts to curb the Iranian programme. > > For what? The punishment of civilians in Gaza in the name of self-defence is nothing if not self-defeating. Its principal purpose is political… > > To the contrary, Hamas is strengthened by the siege. It continues to get weapons through the tunnels on the Egyptian side of the border. It has been gifted a stranglehold over the economy of Gaza and has seen its political legitimacy rise among Palestinians radicalised by their misery. > > … > > Mr Netanyahu’s refusal, in spite of intense pressure from the US administration, to halt the colonisation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem speaks to a mindset that views talks as a substitute for, rather than a path to, a peace accord. So too does the heavy emphasis he invariably places on the suffocating control Israel would exercise over any Palestinian state. Emphasis added. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/894 "2010-06-04T23:05:33Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Sure we do, and you admit it before you try to deny it because its “IDF propaganda”. > We have video footage that shows that the IDF commandos were not shooting anybody as they rappelled down, even though they could have assisted their comrades who were being hammered with crowbars. > > Your claim is essentially that IDF troops started rappelling down while randomly shooting people, and then stopped shooting people and let themselves be brutally beaten with crowbars and, in fact, re-holstered their sidearms and kept using their paintball guns. And that even the reinforcements who were repelling down also weren’t firing at anybody. > > In order for your claim to be at all plausible, trained commandos would have had to have descended onto the deck, firing while they did. And then let themselves get surrounded by people using lethal force. And then have had their backup descend with ineffective weapons. No, it is not clear from the activists claims exactly where shots may have come from. There is simply not enough of a record to clearly know what the sequence of events was from the selective video release. I don’t give particular credence to the activists claims, but neither is the video record without problems. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/895 "2010-06-04T23:07:50Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Sure we do, and you admit it before you try to deny it because its “IDF propaganda”. > We have video footage that shows that the IDF commandos were not shooting anybody as they rappelled down, even though they could have assisted their comrades who were being hammered with crowbars. Wait, you’re seriously trying to claim IDF edited footage is reliable after the shitstorm you initiated over that map? Holy fucking Christ. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/896 "2010-06-04T23:13:17Z")
[**Flotilla attack - Sarah Colborne gives eyewitness account**](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swg-nFZS6so&feature=player_embedded) Chops down all the IDF propaganda. No doubt an anti-Semite lying bitch…who saw it all first hand. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/897 "2010-06-04T23:17:40Z")
[**How Israeli propaganda shaped U.S. media coverage of the flotilla attack**](http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/06/04/israel) > [@](#): > > \*\*It was clear from the moment news of the flotilla attack emerged that Israel was taking extreme steps to suppress all evidence about what happened other than its own official version. They detained the flotilla passengers and barred the media from speaking with them, thus, as The NYT put it, “refusing to permit journalists access to witnesses who might contradict Israel’s version of events.” They detained the journalists who were on the ship for days and seized their film, video and cameras. And worst of all, the IDF – while still refusing to disclose the full, unedited, raw footage of the incident – quickly released an extremely edited video of their commandos landing on the ship, which failed even to address, let alone refute, the claim of the passengers: that the Israelis were shooting at the ship before the commandos were on board. > > This campaign of suppression and propaganda worked to shape American media coverage (as state propaganda campaigns virtually always work on the gullible, authority-revering American media). The edited IDF video was shown over and over on American television without question or challenge. Israeli officials and Israel-devoted commentators appeared all over television – almost always unaccompanied by any Turkish, Palestinian or Muslim critics of the raid – to spout the Israeli version without opposition. Israel-centric pundits in America claimed, based on the edited IDF video, that anyone was lying who even reported on the statements of the passengers that Israeli fired first. In sum, that the Israelis used force only after the passengers attacked the commandos became Unquestioned Truth in American discourse…\*\* – highlights mine. Much more at source, including links to all cited material. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/898 "2010-06-04T23:21:40Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Wait, you’re seriously trying to claim IDF edited footage is reliable after the shitstorm you initiated over that map? Holy fucking Christ. Apparently, you maintain the ability to be surprised by Israeli Government Apologists. Good on you I suppose – I’ve abandoned all hope of profitable exchanges long ago. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/899 "2010-06-04T23:33:31Z")
More Anti-Semitic lies? [**Reporters Dispute Israeli Account of Raid**](http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/03/reporter-disputes-israeli-account-of-raid/) And in a link stemming from said article: > [@](#): > > **srael has confiscated some of the most important material for the investigation, namely the films, audio sections and photos taken by the passengers and journalists on board and the Mavi Marmara’s security cameras. Since yesterday, Israel has been editing these films and using them for its own PR campaign. In other words, Israel has already confiscated most of the evidence, held it from the world and tempered with it. No court in the world would have trusted it to be the one examining it.** Great blog: [Promised Land](http://www.promisedlandblog.com/?p=2942), albeit written by a proud member of my tribe, The Token Jews\*. \*We report, you decide. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/900 "2010-06-04T23:38:47Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Wait You’re welcome to reply to my actual argument about what we see on video, what that shows us, and why an alternate explanation that they came down already shooting makes no sense. > [@RedFury](#): > > [**Flotilla attack - Sarah Colborne gives eyewitness account**](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swg-nFZS6so&feature=player_embedded) Ahhh, a YouTube video. Finally! Of course, despite the fact that it’s not a transcript and it’s a half hour long (:rolleeys:) people really should watch the relevant parts of it, as it contradicts your claims. Why you cited it is beyond me. People really, really should check it. Around 4:00 in, I think is where she starts, give or take, and she was evidently not even present for the initial clashes but does state that they used gas and flashbang grenades, both non-lethal methods. And not that they’d started by opening fire. Her other claims then are the same that Marmite made above, that are irrelevant; namely that they broadcast messages in one form or another that they weren’t resisting… while meaning we have video proof of them resisting. Her account is in accord with everything we know about what happened. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=44) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=46)