# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 48
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/941 "2010-06-05T15:24:24Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Do you really belive that every Israeli newspaper and TV channel is lying? of course you’d have to be insane to believe a word they say They after all said for days on end they were not using white phosphorus didn’t they in 2009. Major Avital Leiberman for one bare faced lied on numerous channels both Israeli and International. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/942 "2010-06-05T15:40:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Link/cite insidiously deleted from post. do you want Arabic sites? ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/943 "2010-06-05T16:56:44Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > do you want Arabic sites? It would at least be an improvement over you posting completely unsupported nutter statements. I am sure there is an Arabic speaker on the board that can look into things. Listen mate, this is an English language site. If you can’t play to it’s standards, you’re just making a fool out of yourself and the positions you want to support. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/944 "2010-06-05T19:34:09Z")
[quote=“wmfellows, post:943, topic:540765”] > [@](#): > > It would at least be an improvement over you posting completely unsupported nutter statements. These 'nutter statements as you so call them are now on English media. Not my problem if I am aware of the facts before you are. > [@](#): > > I am sure there is an Arabic speaker on the board that can look into things. So what? what is your point? Look into what. It’s out there for everyone to read and it’s on the news channels. In ENGLISH!!! > [@](#): > > Listen mate, this is an English language site. If you can’t play to it’s standards, you’re just making a fool out of yourself I think that you are the one making a fool of yourself here. If you look back you will see the three points I wrote were all written in ENGLISH. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/945 "2010-06-05T19:41:47Z")
Here’s another one for you. Two of the British Viva Palestina Arabia organisers who were on the Maramara flew out to Iran today from Turkey for talks about next convoys. If you need confirmation ask the Farsi speakers here to check their news channels and report back their findings to you. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/946 "2010-06-05T19:42:09Z")
I don’t think you quite have a grasp of this whole “cite” thingy yet. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/947 "2010-06-05T19:46:00Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I don’t think you quite have a grasp of this whole “cite” thingy yet. as far as I am aware and English is not my mother tongue a cite is something you quote from? yes? So as I said before I was making my own statements about the news here. They are not quotes from a source. If you want the source then you can Google the topic. But I may be wrong about the meaning of cite? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/948 "2010-06-05T19:46:09Z")
> [@](#): > > [**Alex Harrison**](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/04/gaza-flotilla-attack-autopsy-results) a Free Gaza activist who was on the smaller Challenger yacht, which was crewed mainly by women, said the Israelis used rubber bullets, sound bombs and tasers against them. > > “Two women were hooded, they had their eyes taped,” she said, describing how the yacht was quickly overwhelmed. “We stood and tried to obstruct the armed, masked men and maintained no other defence and still they used violence.” > > **Harrison, 32, from Islington, north London, also witnessed the Mavi Marmara being stormed from above by helicopter and said the Israelis started firing before their troops touched down on the boat.** > > “I have seen some selective footage that the Israelis have chosen to put out suggesting that we responded with violence,” she said. “You must remember that these are unarmed civilians on their own boat in the middle of the Mediterranean. People picked up what they could to defend themselves against armed, masked commandos who were shooting.” > > The violence was “ **initiated by the Israelis on a massive scale,** ” she said… – bolding mine. Another lying anti-Semite no doubt. Repeat as mantra: Must. Believe. The. IDF. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/949 "2010-06-05T20:55:29Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Always the other guys fault. Never mind this very same Turkish government invited the Israeli PM - first ever for the Muslim world - to address the Parliament as recently as 3 or 4 yrs ago, had previously been quite warm. Couldn’t possibly be Israel fucked up, no it’s always the other guys. That was 3 or 4 years ago. In recent months, Turkey’s actions have been much more hostile, including the action of the flotilla. That was not the only recent action. As I previously said, Turkey appears to be attempting to be a regional leader and perhaps start a new Ottoman empire. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/950 "2010-06-05T21:36:08Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > … and perhaps start a new Ottoman empire. You know, a lot of folks would think that’s kinda unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/951 "2010-06-05T21:50:27Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > – bolding mine. > > Another lying anti-Semite no doubt. > > Repeat as mantra: Must. Believe. The. IDF. Quite possibly. Numerous times pro-Palestinians have lied or staged fake deaths. The name of the recent ship is the name of a lady who, unfortunately, was run over by an Israeli tank. The version given by “witnesses” was that the tank deliberately ran her over. Real evidence showed that she ran in front of the tank and then slipped. The most infamous case was the staged “death” of a Palestinian lad. The paparazzi and the media were all over that picture of the dying boy, held in the arms of his bereaved father. The boy was later shown to be alive and well. Netanyahu says that the Israeli soldiers were met by live ammo. > [@](#): > > A MESSAGE FROM ISRAEL’S PRIME-MINISTER’S OFFICE > > DATED MAY 31, 2010 > RE: TURKISH “MARMARA” FLOTILLA > Last night, the IDF took control over the flotilla bound for Gaza, in > contravention of the blockade. > The IDF action was authorized by the Security Cabinet, the Prime Minister > and the Minister of Defense. > Passengers on one of the six boats initiated violent clashes. > Israel regrets that people have been injured, but responsibility lies with > the organizers and participants of the flotilla who initiated the violence. > The State of Israel approaches the organizers of the flotilla - prior to > their departure and late, while at sea - invited them to dock at the Port of > Ashdod for the sake of transferring their cargo to Gaza, subject to security > inspection. The organizers refused. > While boarding one of the vessels, IDF soldiers were physically attacked > with live ammunition and other weapons, including knives and clubs, which > had been prepared in advance. A weapon belonging to one of the soldiers was > snatched and, apparently, fired on IDF forces. > During the course of the incident, when their lives were put in danger, IDF > soldiers were compelled to employ means to disperse demonstrations, > including live weapons. > Initial reports indicate that about 10 flotilla participants were killed, > and others injured during the course of events. Seven Israeli naval > officers were also wounded. All the injured were evacuated to hospitals. > There is no famine or humanitarian crisis in Gaza. The area is under > control of Hamas, a terrorist organization that continues to arm itself with > weapons and rockets for the purpose of attacking Israelis - as it has done > in the past. Hamas continues to hold captive an Israeli soldier, in > contravention of international law. Accordingly, Israel stands on its > natural right to inspect all cargo entering Gaza. > The entire flotilla was designed as a media stunt and political provocation > by elements that are hostile to Israel, primarily the IHH - a violent, > extremist group which supports terrorist organizations under the guise of > humanitarian activity. Israelis are being encouraged to exercise restraint > and not allow radicals to exploit this incident for the sake of igniting > violence. > Israel will continue to express its desire for peace and extend its hand to > all those who are willing to engage. But I waste my time posting that quote since obviously Netanyahu is a liar and dishes out nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/952 "2010-06-05T22:29:55Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > Quite possibly. Numerous times pro-Palestinians have lied or staged fake deaths. The name of the recent ship is the name of a lady who, unfortunately, was run over by an Israeli tank. The version given by “witnesses” was that the tank deliberately ran her over. Real evidence showed that she ran in front of the tank and then slipped. The most infamous case was the staged “death” of a Palestinian lad. The paparazzi and the media were all over that picture of the dying boy, held in the arms of his bereaved father. The boy was later shown to be alive and well. > > Netanyahu says that the Israeli soldiers were met by live ammo. > > But I waste my time posting that quote since obviously Netanyahu is a liar and dishes out nonsense. You are wasting your time if your mind is so closed that you think that Netanyahu won’t lie to achieve a particular result. The Israelis have ample motiviation to lie about what happened which is why they jammed communications, confiscated everything that everyone owned so the wouldn’t be able to show photographic, video or audio evidence of what happened. If he wasn’t lying and the IDF had nothing to hide, why would they confiscate everything? They basically robbed every passenger. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/953 "2010-06-05T22:42:00Z")
I thought this link was cute. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG\_osOoVg](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg) There are some great links on the flotilla attack where 20 people were killed on Utube. There is one with the transmissions between the Israeli navy and the flotilla that in one part someone said you should all go back to Auschwitz. There is also footage looking down on the ship and people being shot. The US interviews are calling Israel a Crazy country out of control. Or something similar? The braodcasts are also available to watch. The US Isn’t saying much and the peace talks between Israel and the US may be canceled. The Israeli’s are saying they had to protect themselves and the Palestinians are saying unarmed vessels carrying humanitarian aid were attacked. Listen to the transmissions video and you get a better idea of what happened. The flotilla was told repeatedly to stop but it didn’t. The UN talks spent all last week ironing out the detail of this so I don’t see why they attacked? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/954 "2010-06-05T23:19:50Z")
Yikes! Or, what the…? > **[Israeli government office links to video mocking flotilla - CNN.com](http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/05/gaza.flotilla.mock.video/index.html?hpt=T2)** > > The Israeli government's press division is apologizing for circulating a link to a video that mocks activists aboard a ship headed to Gaza earlier this week that was blocked by an Israeli raid. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/955 "2010-06-05T23:25:56Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Apparently, you maintain the ability to be surprised by Israeli Government Apologists. > [@EasyPhil](#): > > You are wasting your time if your mind is so closed that you think that Netanyahu won’t lie to achieve a particular result. Please back off. Attack the arguments, but don’t attack other posters with descriptions like “closed minded” or “Israeli Government Apologists.” ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/956 "2010-06-05T23:30:09Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Even weirder, the YouTube video that Red posted seems to be an edited version of the Guardian version (ironic). > > Even in the guardian version the lines > > do not appear. Check for yourself. It starts at 2:45 on the Guardian video. > > It goes straight from “There were bullets flying all over the place when I was on the top deck and I took the decision to go downstairs” > To “We asked for the Israelis to stop the attacks.” > > The rest of it is filled with significant mistquotes. But I think the inclusion of an entire paragraph that evidently never happened is probably the most egregious bit. > > Damn odd. The odder it gets (various videos being edited or cut, differing speech vs transcripts - misquotes, etc) , the less I believe the “official” version. If someone is telling the truth, they don’t have to “doctor” or spin the so called evidence, do they. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/957 "2010-06-06T02:36:59Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > The odder it gets (various videos being edited or cut, differing speech vs transcripts - misquotes, etc) , the less I believe the “official” version. If someone is telling the truth, they don’t have to “doctor” or spin the so called evidence, do they. I don’t understand what you’re saying here, are you saying that because it appears that pro-Palestinian media have doctored the video that you think Israel must have too? 'Cause that doesn’t make much sense… ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/958 "2010-06-06T03:37:09Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > You are wasting your time if your mind is so closed that you think that Netanyahu won’t lie to achieve a particular result. The Israelis have ample motiviation to lie about what happened which is why they jammed communications, confiscated everything that everyone owned so the wouldn’t be able to show photographic, video or audio evidence of what happened. If he wasn’t lying and the IDF had nothing to hide, why would they confiscate everything? They basically robbed every passenger. Furthermore, from a cultural point of view, weak and transparent lies from the like of Netanyahu, Oren, Krauthammer & etc are a cultural or, group marker. It is a way of identifying another as an ‘evil-cult’ jew. These lies signify "my commitment to Israel at all costs is so complete I am happy to publicly sacrifice any personal integrity I might have had’. So if you are wondering how on earth anyone believes any of what they say, they don’t believe it, not a word. It is not mere indifference to whether what they say is true. It is a display of pride in zealotry for Israel and the power to have childish lies appear in publications read by adults. The perception of Jewish solidarity is all. The first one is the big lie and all else follows. As identified by Greenwald: > [@](#): > > I had it continuously drummed into my head from the time I was a small child, from every direction, that Israel was special and was to be cherished, that it’s fundamentally good but persecuted and victimized by Evil Arab forces surrounding it, that I am a part of that group and should see the world accordingly. Is this tribal identity which was pummeled into me from childhood – rather than some independent, dispassionate analysis – the reason I find myself perpetually sympathizing with and defending Israel? As adults many people brought up with this doctrine are able to overcome it, but some aren’t. Glad to have helped. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/959 "2010-06-06T05:43:38Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Furthermore, from a cultural point of view, weak and transparent lies from the like of Netanyahu, Oren, Krauthammer & etc are a cultural or, group marker. It is a way of identifying another as an ‘evil-cult’ jew. These lies signify "my commitment to Israel at all costs is so complete I am happy to publicly sacrifice any personal integrity I might have had’. > > So if you are wondering how on earth anyone believes any of what they say, they don’t believe it, not a word. It is not mere indifference to whether what they say is true. It is a display of pride in zealotry for Israel and the power to have childish lies appear in publications read by adults. The perception of Jewish solidarity is all. I told you upthread that this kind of inflammatory nonsense is not welcome here. This is a formal warning: don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/960 "2010-06-06T06:00:12Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > xtisme’s post beat my reply and I don’t have much to add to that. I’m not mocking you but it seems you do have something to add. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=47) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=49)