# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 49
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/961 "2010-06-06T06:02:42Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > _Obviously._ But **Dick Dastardly** said the Palestinians had a right to defend themselves. Lashing out at someone because you’re angry isn’t self-defense. So in the interests of self defense, shouldn’t Israel try to reduce the number of those angry young men? Assuming genocide is not a viable option to getting rid of the next generation of angry young men, how else can they reduce the number of angry young men in the next generation? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/962 "2010-06-06T06:06:43Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > **Elucidator** –please.., this ain’t your usual tone. You’re posts are always articulate and usually pretty reasonable. > Quoting Hitler in a thread about Jews is a little, well,… disappointing.And not a very effective way to make your point. > And the point you seem to me trying to make is also a little, well,..scary.Or can’t you recognize evil when you see it? > Are you really saying it’s legitimate for Gaza’s military to aim their artillery and explosives at Israeli apartments and schoolyards every day and night for 5 years? That it’s not terrorism, and it’s all legitimate, because they organize their armored divisions into small squads of terrorists, and not nice, big,uniformed platoons of tanks and artillery? I think Elucidator’s point was that its not an existential crisis and they shouldn’t react as if it were. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/963 "2010-06-06T06:11:14Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So in the interests of self defense, shouldn’t Israel try to reduce the number of those angry young men? Of course it should. When I said the blockade was inhumane, causing a lot of suffering, counterproductive, and that they should find better ways to achieve their security goals, did you think I was saying it was a _good_ idea? That being said, firing rockets at people indiscriminately is not self defense. Particularly if it’s in response to something that happened decades ago. That’s just revenge. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/964 "2010-06-06T06:14:47Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > The clear majority of land involved in disputes in the West Bank was never privately owned Palestinian property. That is because you have a narrow view of ownership. I also don’t see what ownership of land has to do with ethnic cleansing. If half the palestinians owned their land in fee simple and the other half were renting, would only half of the palestinians been victims of ethnic cleansing? > [@](#): > > That specific soundbyte sure is making the rounds. Of course, as the 4th GC explicitly allows for internment, it’s again clear that language is being used to inflame and exaggerate rather than clarify. If this incident on the maru should teach Israel anything, it should teach them that the fact that it is not illegal does not mean it is advisable, tolerable or productive. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/965 "2010-06-06T06:19:33Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > If you see a media report that misrepresents the events of 1967, use this primer and the following links to respond to media bias: Your links didn’t show up. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/966 "2010-06-06T06:33:32Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > no problem > > Obviously the accounts from the activists are true when they said they saw commandos aiming and firing at already wounded men lying on the deck. That was why they raised the white flags and one doctor got the loudhailer to tell the commandos to stop shooting as they had all surrendered and that was minutes into the attack when they saw a few lying shot on the deck but they kept on shooting regardless. > > You don’t get 4 bullets to the head unless you are already dead from the first one. > > IDF liars are all over the media here trying to justify this and thousands of Israeli’s are out in the streets of Tel Aviv in support of the attack. > It’s quite unbelievable. > > It must be quite disturbing to Erdogan to see this display when he has buried 9 dead yesterday and today and many more are in hospital with bullet wounds. > > What can you do with these monsters I ask you. I think we are all waiting for video of the Commandoes firing first or of them firing when their safety is not in jeopardy. In the absence of video it is a question of who you choose to believe. Things can get very confusing in a gunfight and I suspect that we will get all sorts of conflicting eye witness accounts. But heaven help Likud if they those videos surface. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/967 "2010-06-06T06:35:52Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > [Gaza Militants Fire Four Qassam Rockets at Israel - Haaretz Com](http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/gaza-militants-fire-four-qassam-rockets-at-israel-1.294108) A link to the continual bombardment. > > You refer to one of my posts as being from a Jewish site, but you posted numerous Palestinian cites. BTW, my quote was from an old Honest Reporting cite. > > The American/Turk who was killed was hailed as a matyr by his relatives, which means that there was expectation that he would be killed. Sorry, I lost the cite, but it’s current news. That is not my understanding of the word martyr. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/968 "2010-06-06T06:44:17Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > [Gaza Militants Fire Four Qassam Rockets at Israel - Haaretz Com](http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/gaza-militants-fire-four-qassam-rockets-at-israel-1.294108) A link to the continual bombardment. So is the blockade working? How many rockets are they keeping out with the blockade? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/969 "2010-06-06T06:57:14Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > \*\*Elucidator \*\*- > > First of all, they did not panic. They asked for permission to fire, and Admiral Eli Marom, Commander in Chief of the Israeli Navy, who was standing in a skiff 30 yards away and watching the fight through night vision goggles, granted it. > > Second of all, one of the soldiers was shot inthe torso, one shot in the leg, one stabbed in the gut, one knocked unconscious by a metal bar to the head and another suffered head injuries after being thrown to the lower deck. This has been reported extensively in the Israeli media, including interviews with the wounded soldiers. I can also confirm it from my own personal, first-hand sources, so if you don’t trust the Israeli media, then please believe me. You’ve known me long enough - I wouldn’t lie about this sort of thing. Is there some video of the shooting? I think it would be very instructive to see the circumstances under which the shooting occurred. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/970 "2010-06-06T07:05:33Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > The fact remains that the Rachel Corrie was towed to port without incident and that 5 out of 6 ships in the flotilla were towed without incident. The 6th ship had the problem and it also had an arsenal. Video of some of that arsenal has been presented. The 6th ship was looking for a confrontation. Arsenal? Really? then between my kitchen and my garage, I have an arsenal. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/971 "2010-06-06T07:06:47Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > On the one hand, Israel is really bad at this asymmetric warfare in the digital age thing. And everyone can appreciate the irony of Jews creating ghettos. > > And yet, otherwise functioning human beings thought it would be a great idea to pick up a knife and charge at commandos who are rappelling onto their ship from a helicopter while said ship is trying to break a military blockade. Talk about Darwining yourself. Suicide by cop? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/972 "2010-06-06T07:08:41Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > _Inconceivable!_ I don’t think that word means what you think it means. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/973 "2010-06-06T07:11:34Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So is the blockade working? How many rockets are they keeping out with the blockade? There are two separate problems here: 1. As alluded to in **Barbitu8** ’s post, Hamas continuously fire _Qassam_ rockets (really, glorified makeshift mortars) at Israeli civilian targets which are **very** near the Gaza Strip (mostly the town of Sderot.) Because of the makeshift, home-made quality of these rockets, it is very difficult to stop them from being produced – metal water pipe + gunpowder + some explosives = _Qassam_. These literally really are a weapon of “terror”-ism – while they occasionally do injure or rarely even kill, mostly they cause some property damage, and more importantly, **terrorize** the population they are aimed at. While still not acceptable to the Israeli public, these are not an existential thread to the country as a whole. 2. Before and during the conflict in late 2008 - early 2009 (“[Cast Lead](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008-2009_Israel-Gaza_conflict),”) [Hamas began using far more sophisticated, military grade rockets](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#2008-2009), such as the [Grad](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grad_rocket)– with longer range (reaching Ashkelon and even Beer-Sheva), higher accuracy, and a significantly larger payload. It is the second class of weapons, and potentially even longer-range ones (which could reach as far as Tel Aviv) – which Hamas are (thankfully) **not** capable of home-producing – that we are trying to keep out of the hands of Hamas. A large arsenal of long-range, heavy, accurate missiles pouring in on Israel from Gaza **would** indeed be, if not an **existential** threat, a very very big problem for Israel, not to mention a potential mass loss of life just waiting to happen. This is the purpose of the blockade – making sure that a regular arms-shipping route from Iran to Hamas **cannot** be established. I’ll repeat the caveat that I agree that the list of items not allowed into Gaza does seem needlessly over-restrictive; that is not the same as saying that the blockade should be lifted entirely, because if **that** happens then before we know it Hamas will be armed to the teeth with military-grade artillery, and it **will** eventually be used against us (as evidenced in 2008.) Which, incidentally, explains why when you advocated the removal of the blockade you were accused of, essentially, demanding that Israel abandon its right to self defense. I understand that you don’t see it that way, but things look different from here than from where you sit. I’m not saying you **meant** Israel has no right to self defense, but your proposed actions would effectively nullify our **ability** to defend ourselves, even if this is not what you have in mind with your good-intentioned wish for the end of the blockade. Re: the question of martyrdom – I have no source, and this **could** be a rumor, but I have heard that at least two of the victims on the _Marmara_ had prepared “good-bye” videos in the fashion of Suicide Bombers, i.e., they expected and hoped to die in action. Again – I have no cite for this, and I do **not** know if this is actually true, but this rumor **has** been kicking around the Israeli press and word-of-mouth discussions. I’m at work and have already been spending all too much time writing here instead of working… :o – so I’d appreciate if someone could take a look at world media and see if any international mention of this has been made. I just don’t have the time (and the Google-fu is weak with this one.) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/974 "2010-06-06T07:14:49Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Egypt to strip Egyptian men married to Israeli women of Egyptian citizenship. > > King of Jordan sends aid convoy to break blockade. > > Some activists still missing believed to have been shot and thrown overboard. WTF dude!?!?! I hope the Palestinian remember that the only fly in their ointment right now is the videos of people beating the soldiers with sticks, if those videos didn’t exist, then they would have their nation. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/975 "2010-06-06T07:16:56Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > It is a lie being spread by Israeli media that the other 5 boats were boarded with no incident also. > > It was the Marmara which was boarded first by troops. The others were smaller and faster and sped past the Zodiacs which were firing percussion grenades, within seconds rubber bullet, then within less than a minute live rounds at the Marmara. > > The other boats were then boarded and activists aboard the Challenger 1&2 sustained an attack by troops. Two are in hospital still with broken ribs and other injuries. Mark Regev lied when he said on live TV that there was no resistance from the other boats and that they were not injured. > Lies. It has been reported here in the US that people on the other boats were beaten and tasered but noone was killed. Some have suggested that this is what led some of the folks on the maru to fight back (still seems like a stupid thing to do. The point is to get video footage of getting beaten and tasered). ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/976 "2010-06-06T07:20:03Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > **noone** was killed. :eek:!! “The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated” (Sorry, couldn’t resist… :D) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/977 "2010-06-06T07:24:01Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > It would at least be an improvement over you posting completely unsupported nutter statements. I am sure there is an Arabic speaker on the board that can look into things. > > Listen mate, this is an English language site. If you can’t play to it’s standards, you’re just making a fool out of yourself and the positions you want to support. It didn’t take long to google this. [http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100605/wl\_mideast\_afp/egyptisraelmarriagecitizenshiptrial\_20100605151410](http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100605/wl_mideast_afp/egyptisraelmarriagecitizenshiptrial_20100605151410) [http://www.petra.gov.jo/Artical.aspx?Lng=1&Section=8&Artical=198266](http://www.petra.gov.jo/Artical.aspx?Lng=1&Section=8&Artical=198266) I think the activists missing thing is old news, they seem to have located everyone (a few were recovering in hospitals). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/978 "2010-06-06T07:32:50Z")
**Nooner:** So they were going to strap on vests stuffed with weapons-grade coriander and launch themselves towards Israel in the wheel chairs? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/979 "2010-06-06T07:38:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Please back off. Attack the arguments, but don’t attack other posters with descriptions like “closed minded” or “Israeli Government Apologists.” Apologist is a derogatory term? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/980 "2010-06-06T07:40:43Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Apologist is a derogatory term? When it’s used to impugn someone’s intellectual honesty or motives, yes. The more formal definition of apologetics is not used very often around here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=48) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=50)