# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/81 "2010-05-31T13:49:31Z")
And thank’s to \*\*Malthus \*\*for bringing a bit of reason to this mess. Now I remember why \*he \*posts in these threads, and I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/82 "2010-05-31T13:50:43Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Not really as those people wouldn’t be coming at the armed soldiers at all if the armed soldiers hadn’t attacked … with live ammunition. Yours is a classic case of blaming the victim. And if te terrorists on the boats were not in full support of the racist, baby-killing terrorists in Gaza there would have been no need of armed soldiers to board the boats. See? We can go around in circles with the Blame Game all day. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/83 "2010-05-31T13:51:29Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > The blockade, from that link, does seem arbitrary. The thrust of a blockade should be to prevent weapons not spices and foodstuffs. What’s next? Medicine? Bandages? I’m not sure I get the whole spices thing, either. I think my government screwed up there. I wouldn’t put some level of petty vindictiveness past certain government officials. However, plenty of food and medicine is getting through on a regular basis. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/84 "2010-05-31T13:52:33Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > They should surrender because they were being boarded by armed commandos, and they knew that armed resistance would lead to bloodshed, which it did, and because, if they didn’t have forbidden weapons among their supplies, the supplies would have gotten to Gaza after being inspected in Ashdod. > > Considering that the whole point of this convoy was to try to break the blockade of Gaza, an action, which, if it was successful, would lead to the flow of weapons to Gaza increasing and allow groups like Hamas to operate more successfully, you’ll excuse me if I don’t have more sympathy for the goddamned bastards. What was the point of quoting me if you weren’t going to even attempt to answer the questions? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/85 "2010-05-31T13:52:59Z")
Obama needs to cancel his meeting with Netanyahu over this, at least until we know whether the prime minister ordered the killings. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/86 "2010-05-31T13:56:38Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > And if te terrorists on the boats were not in full support of the racist, baby-killing terrorists in Gaza there would have been no need of armed soldiers to board the boats. > > See? We can go around in circles with the Blame Game all day. Or maybe, JUST MAYBE, they thought the people in Gaza urgently need aid that Israel has an utterly random attitude towards blocking. For the record, for years my view towards the Middle East was “fuck 'em, they’re as bad as each other”. It is only in recent years, with a growing disproportional response to everything, that Israel has made it very difficult for me to maintain this position. I still think both sides have a large selection of evil bastards. It is just that one side has been bombed to fuck and is living in total poverty and the other receives an ungodly amount of cash and arms from the world’s only superpower. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/87 "2010-05-31T14:02:12Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Or maybe, JUST MAYBE, they thought the people in Gaza urgently need aid that Israel has an utterly random attitude towards blocking. > > For the record, for years my view towards the Middle East was “fuck 'em, they’re as bad as each other”. It is only in recent years, with a growing disproportional response to everything, that Israel has made it very difficult for me to maintain this position. > > I still think both sides have a large selection of evil bastards. It is just that one side has been bombed to fuck and is living in total poverty and the other receives an ungodly amount of cash and arms from the world’s only superpower. I’m sure the Israelis will try hard to lose the next battle badly, and so regain your support. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/88 "2010-05-31T14:03:55Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Certainly, they may “fight back”. But there is a bit of cognitive dissonance going on here. > > Either the protesters are engaged in a bit of Gandhi-esque civil disobedience, or they are simply participants in the middle east conflict. > > If they are engaged in Gandhi-like civil disobedience tactics, then they ought to use non-violent resistance. The use of non-violence is what gives them moral authority (no matter what anyone thinks of the object of their project). > > OTOH, if they use violence, they lack moral authority - they are in no better position than any other combatant. Only, they are worse armed. > > What they then appear to be doing, is deliberately inciting violence to score a political point - knowing that some folks will certainly die if they pull knives on troops. In short, the opposite of Gandhi’s tactics. Or perhaps they are people that care enough about other humans that they desperately want aid to get through. Bizarrely, some of the people in this thread have openly argued on this board about how evil the boarding of the [SS Exodus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Exodus) and deporting the people on it back to Europe was, with one notable person comparing the British to the Nazis for doing it, yet are quite happy with the boarding of a ship carrying aid and killing several of the aid workers. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/89 "2010-05-31T14:09:18Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Or perhaps they are people that care enough about other humans that they desperately want aid to get through. Nothing wrong with desperately caring about a cause enough to fight and die for it. But if you fight, you don’t get to claim the same moral high ground as a non-combatant - you just don’t. Because "non-combatant’ means someone who is not a combatant. > [@](#): > > Bizarrely, some of the people in this thread have openly argued on this board about how evil the boarding of the [SS Exodus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Exodus) and deporting the people on it back to Europe was, with one notable person comparing the British to the Nazis for doing it, yet are quite happy with the boarding of a ship carrying aid and killing several of the aid workers. Last I checked, these folks were not death camp survivors fleeing a Europe in ruins. Again, the status of the dead as “aid workers” isn’t the significant issue: they could be composed entirely of Nobel Peace Prize winners, and it would make no difference. What is at issue is - were they fighting, or not? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/90 "2010-05-31T14:10:02Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Obama needs to cancel his meeting with Netanyahu over this, at least until we know whether the prime minister ordered the killings. Why? If Obama wants to find out what involvement Netanyahu had - or even if he just wants to ask Netanyahu to tread carefully and not fuck anything up - cancelling his meeting is the _last_ thing he should be doing. This was a stupid idea when people were saying we shouldn’t meet with the Iranians, and it’s a stupid idea now. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/91 "2010-05-31T14:13:56Z")
Netanyahu canceled the meeting. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/92 "2010-05-31T14:14:05Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > For the record, for years my view towards the Middle East was “fuck 'em, they’re as bad as each other”. It is only in recent years, with a growing disproportional response to everything, that Israel has made it very difficult for me to maintain this position. My feelings are roughly the same. I’ve always supported Israel in the past. They’re a democracy with a decent domestic human rights record in a sea of despots. Yet their actions over the past few years, post the last savagery in Lebanon, have made it increasingly hard to summon any sort of sympathy toward them. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/93 "2010-05-31T14:15:38Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > What is at issue is - were they fighting, or not? No, what is at issue is, were they there solely for a fight against an invading force of Israeli commandos, and the answer to that is obviously “No!”, otherwise they would have been better prepared. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/94 "2010-05-31T14:17:00Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Now I’m pretty sure the Mods don’t approve of _that_. > > (And yeah, I saw the “scum” line. Too slow!) It’s plain what you are, I just can’t say it on this forum and so withdrew it. You’ve got not a shred of individual personal responsibility; my country right or wrong. This isn’t even about Israel is it, it’s your inability to distinguish between the abstract of statehood and the individual. Very weird shit. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/95 "2010-05-31T14:17:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Netanyahu canceled the meeting. A pre-emptive strike across Obama’s bow? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/96 "2010-05-31T14:18:35Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > My feelings are roughly the same. I’ve always supported Israel in the past. They’re a democracy with a decent domestic human rights record in a sea of despots. Yet their actions over the past few years, post the last savagery in Lebanon, have made it increasingly hard to summon any sort of sympathy toward them. My family in Haifa spent a month in a bomb shelter, and you’re talking about \*Israeli \*savagery? Believe me, if \*your \*city had been bombed by a neighboring country, \*your \*government would have nuked that country into a parking lot. Don’t get all high and mighty with me; we know how blase you people can be when it’s not your own citizens being attacked. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/97 "2010-05-31T14:20:54Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Nothing wrong with desperately caring about a cause enough to fight and die for it. > > But if you fight, you don’t get to claim the same moral high ground as a non-combatant - you just don’t. Because "non-combatant’ means someone who is not a combatant. Wow. Next you’ll be trying to convince me that they were in a warzone. They were on a ship that was (probably illegally) being boarded. Their actions were no different to those defending themselves again Somali pirates. > [@Malthus](#): > > Last I checked, these folks were not death camp survivors fleeing a Europe in ruins. > > Again, the status of the dead as “aid workers” isn’t the significant issue: they could be composed entirely of Nobel Peace Prize winners, and it would make no difference. What is at issue is - were they fighting, or not? No, they are aid workers trying to get help to the residents of Gaza, a place in ruins and run like a concentration camp. Again, they were defending themselves against being boarded. That boarding was quite possibly an illegal action similar to piracy. The Israeli forces boarded the ship. The Israeli forces were the agressors. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/98 "2010-05-31T14:22:26Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > You’ve got not a shred of individual personal responsibility; my country right or wrong. This isn’t even about Israel is it, it’s your inability to distinguish between the abstract of statehood and the individual. First of all, my country can be wrong, and has been worng on occasion. I just don’t think it’s wrong today. Second of all, all Israelis are Israel. It’s what being a citizen means. We may not agree with each other all the time, but we’re still all in this together… or at least that’s the ideal. Personally, I find the disconnect some peoiple here feel between their employees (their government) and themselves as kind of strange and disconcerting. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/99 "2010-05-31T14:26:17Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > My family in Haifa spent a month in a bomb shelter, and you’re talking about \*Israeli \*savagery? > > Believe me, if \*your \*city had been bombed by a neighboring country, \*your \*government would have nuked that country into a parking lot. Don’t get all high and mighty with me; we know how blase you people can be when it’s not your own citizens being attacked. Mine did. I grew up in a small town outside Coventry, which got decimated in WW2. My Father grew up in Sheffield, where my Grandfather had a breakdown after pulling out his dead nextdoor neighbour from the remains of his house when the German bombed it. We eventually won the war and then got on with it. We’re friends with Germany now. If they’ve been firing glorified fireworks at us or we’ve been leveling their cities still then I must have missed it on the news. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/100 "2010-05-31T14:27:02Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > You’re just a rabid extremist with no moral compass or sense of perspective or decency. No he’s not. He may be wrong (I’m not sure, not enough facts - hard facts - to go on yet), but Alessan is not a rabid extremist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=6)