# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 51
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1001 "2010-06-06T15:26:23Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > **ivan astikov** , you are, of course, a noted champion of Conspiracy Theories. What are you suggesting? Would you like to qualify your allegation by telling us all what a “champion of Conspiracy Theories” involves? > [@tomndebb](#): > > I find it interesting, however, that you can never quite recognize the evidence for conspriacies among whatever group you happen to champion. You mean I can’t provide evidence that satisfies you, more like. If someone came up with a signed confession by Paul Wolfowitz, someone would still say it was forged, and if he appeared live on tv saying it, some would say his words were taken out of context. > [@tomndebb](#): > > It goes a long way toward making your posts irrelevant to the discussion. I think I’ve made a few relevant points to this discussion, but I’m too modest to point them out myself. The fact that you wont even recognise one decent point, says more about you and your attitude towards me, than it says about me as a poster. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1002 "2010-06-06T16:05:37Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > You mean I can’t provide evidence that satisfies you, more like. If someone came up with a signed confession by Paul Wolfowitz, someone would still say it was forged, and if he appeared live on tv saying it, some would say his words were taken out of context. Twisting my words to mean the opposite of what I have posted is not helpful. I did not ever address the issue of the quality of any of your “evidence,” and I made no claim that you had made no useful points. I noted that you are incapable of considering that the “Peace Activists” (or the WTC/Penatgon attackers) were capable of engaging in conspiracies. Therefore, your general contributions are less relevant, because you are simply waving your arms and yelling “conspiracy” at whomever you hate on any given occasion. Even everyone’s favorite _bête noir_, Finn, has acknowledged that Israel’s embargo has flaws. All you appear to be able to do is make dire pronouncements that the Israelis are not telling us everything or telling the truth. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1003 "2010-06-06T16:06:46Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > . . . but I’m too modest to point them out myself. I’m glad you can introduce some levity to this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1004 "2010-06-06T16:19:26Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > You English get all the cool words and phrases! “Cock-up”, “nicked”, etc… I can rent them to you for a ha’penny… (ah the humour) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1005 "2010-06-06T16:49:03Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I do not see where Allessan said anything of the kind. The point he has made, sometimes indirectly, is that the injuries of each group “prove” different things… Not quite my point. Its about the circular reasoning on the peace terrorists intentions. For instance, it is pointed out that the “arsenal” of weapons were nothing more than ordinary tools and implements. What makes that an arsenal? The violent intentions of the peace terrorists. What proves the violent intentions of the peace terrorists? The possession of an arsenal. All of which supports the utterly peaceful intentions of the party that arrived on the scene with armed soldiers and war ships. The fact that they arrived with actual soldiers, with an actual arsenal, is blithely brushed aside. Sometimes a dose of sarcasm can jolt the circular reasoning out of its groove, but you have to simplify it down to its basic absurdity. The violent intentions of the passengers is proven by soldiers injuries, but somehow the actual death of some passengers is held to have no bearing on the peaceable intentions of the IDF. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1006 "2010-06-06T17:39:40Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > the peaceable intentions of the IDF. [Gaza flotilla activists were shot in head at close range](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/04/gaza-flotilla-activists-autopsy-results) > [@](#): > > a 60-year-old man, Ibrahim Bilgen, was shot four times in the temple, chest, hip and back. A 19-year-old, named as Fulkan Dogan, who also has US citizenship, was shot five times from less that 45cm, in the face, in the back of the head, twice in the leg and once in the back. Apparently, peacable intentions means shooting em before _and_ after they’re down. That being the case, this is not a big surprise: [Israel rejects UN call for international inquiry into flotilla raids](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/06/israel-flotilla-inquiry-un-chief) > [@](#): > > The UN secretary general called today for a multinational investigation of Israel’s raid on the Gaza-bound aid flotilla that left nine dead but the proposal was swiftly rejected by the Israelis. > > Ban Ki-moon proposed that the inquiry be headed by the former New Zealand prime minister Geoffrey Palmer and include representatives from Turkey – under whose flag many of the ships in the aid convoy sailed – Israel and the US, an official from Israeli prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu’s office said. > > But Michael Oren, Israel’s ambassador to Washington, told Fox News: “We are rejecting an international commission. We are discussing with the Obama administration a way in which our inquiry will take place.” ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1007 "2010-06-06T17:44:39Z")
Who the fuck are Israel to think they can just reject an international commission, and instead sort things out with the help of their main ally? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1008 "2010-06-06T18:19:09Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > If you have any other rules-related questions, send me a private message. You already know that that stuff does not need to be handled in-thread. There are enough distractions and tangents as it is. OK. Umm, where is the PM button? > [@barbitu8](#): > > Cite? “It has been reported…” Who has done the reporting? I read the daily newspaper, news magazines, email journals, etc., and have not seen anything about that. Sorry, I thought it was general knowledge but I see others have provided a cite. I think I read it in one of those articles that other people cited. > [@](#): > > As to Netanyahu lying, I think I would believe him rather than so-called “peace” activists who want anything but peace: inviting a confrontation. Pro-Palestinian groups call themselves “Amnesty International,” “Human Rights Watch,” etc. They have a history of fabricating stories, as I noted before. Those so-called peace activists included members of parliament, a nobel peace prize winner, a 1 year old baby and 89 year olds. They may have been inviting a confrontation but if so then they were doing it more like Gandhi than Hamas. I don’t know about Israel but most people here don’t think of Amnesty international and human rights watch as being pro-Palestinian because they have some special love for the Palestinians. They are Pro-Palestinian because the Palestinians are the ones that seem to be living in poor conditions. > [@](#): > > And, of course, the Palestinians themselves, with the staged “death” of a boy, making sure that all the paparazzi were around first before they got their act together. I’m not really sure what those lying Palestinian bastards have to do with this discussion. > [@](#): > > Damuri Ajashi: If you intended their use to inflict death and bodily harm, then you do. Why did they knock the axe heads off the axe handles? Why not swing axes at these soldiers heads? Wouldn’t that be more effective? Why bring slingshots when you can bring rifles, wouldn’t they be more effective? You can’t on the one hand say “IDF didn’t want to kill anyone despite the fact that they brought along guns because they started off by using paintballs and stuff” and then accuse the humanitarians of murderous intent when they use axe handles with the axe heads broken off can you? > [@EasyPhil](#): > > The have the full video but they won’t show it. They stole everyone else’s video because they are afraid of what might be on it that doesn’t support the story they want to put out. People that think understand this and that’s why you got world wide condemnation of the actions of the Israeli goverment… > The deception is selective release of video segments to support a particular claim and judging by the posters in this thread a lot of people believe what they are seeing to be the whole truth since they don’t have an opportunity to see the full video or the video of other people that were on the scene… > It’s clear to me that the Israeli government has something to hide, better yet knew that they would have something to hide which is why the have a policy of confiscating and not returning peoples devices that are capable of recording events that happened so that they can control what’s said. It really doesn’t matter if your press has freedom if they can’t get any information other than what is told to them or provided by their government. Yeah, confiscating video footage and not showing entire videos is kind of like a damning silence. [quote=“Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus, post:998, topic:540765”] > [@](#): > > there will never be any military protection by the Turkish or any other government. I hope not but the Turks might do so only because it is working political wonders for a government that apparently has been on the ropes like every other incumbent government in the world. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1009 "2010-06-06T18:27:01Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Who the fuck are Israel to think they can just reject an international commission, and instead sort things out with the help of their main ally? They’re a sovereign nation, like any other. While the Israeli approach to public relations I believe long-ago passed into the realm of self-harm and diminishing returns from the reflexive "Everyone who criticizes us is a terrorist sympathiser’ narrative, they are perfectly within their rights. In some ways, due to people like you, I don’t entirely blame them, although as noted, I believe this approach has long been more harmful than helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1010 "2010-06-06T18:29:01Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > OK. > > Umm, where is the PM button? Go into your user control panel and activate private messaging. Right now you have it turned off. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1011 "2010-06-06T18:36:15Z")
Hey, I just got back from vacation and spotted this thread. Could someone summarize the previous 20 1/2 pages and the consensus reached? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1012 "2010-06-06T18:38:07Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > They’re a sovereign nation, like any other. > > While the Israeli approach to public relations I believe long-ago passed into the realm of self-harm and diminishing returns from the reflexive "Everyone who criticizes us is a terrorist sympathiser’ narrative, they are perfectly within their rights. In some ways, due to people like you, I don’t entirely blame them, although as noted, I believe this approach has long been more harmful than helpful. Due to people like me? Do you want to elaborate on what that means? Are you implying that my asking awkward questions on the internet is somehow some sort of deliberate, malicious act against Israel? > [@Jackmannii](#): > > Hey, I just got back from vacation and spotted this thread. Could someone summarize the previous 20 1/2 pages and the consensus reached? > > Thanks. Israel kill opponents; claim opponents had hostile intent. All is well. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1013 "2010-06-06T18:47:09Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You know, a lot of folks would think that’s kinda unlikely. You know, or apparently you don’t and others have indicated likewise, that this was supposed to be a joke. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1014 "2010-06-06T18:56:36Z")
As **wmfellows** noted Israel is a sovereign nation. Would the USA consent to an international tribunal in a similar situation? The answer is No, and the US has not consented to the jurisdiction of the World Court over our citizens. [edited 2:57 to correct the coding, I hope] ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1015 "2010-06-06T19:15:04Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Hey, I just got back from vacation and spotted this thread. Could someone summarize the previous 20 1/2 pages and the consensus reached? > > Thanks. I think we eventually got a consensus that the 4th Geneva Convention did allow the Israelis to intercept the blockade-runners even though they were still in international waters. I don’t think the two sides have agreed on anything since then. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1016 "2010-06-06T19:16:06Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Your links didn’t show up. Well, this is not germane to this topic. The links are old, but this is what they said: > [@](#): > > Forty years [now 43] have now passed since the “Six Day War” which resulted in Israeli control over the Sinai Peninsula, Gaza Strip, West Bank, eastern Jerusalem and Golan Heights. Some media reports already refer to the fortieth anniversary of the “occupation.” > How Did the War Begin? > While June 5 marks the day that Israel initiated its military operation, it is important to note that the immediate Arab threats to wipe out Israel began in the preceding months. It is also critical to take the causes of the Six Day War into account before analyzing the resulting status of land taken as a result. International Law makes a clear distinction between land “occupied” during a war of aggression and land taken as a result of a defensive war. > This distinction explains why so many enemies of Israel are using this anniversary to rewrite history and falsely claim that the Six Day War was initiated by Israel in order to illegally capture land. > Who Initiated Hostilities? > Egypt and Syria Demand War: > “We aim at the destruction of the State of Israel. The immediate aim: perfection of Arab military might. The national aim: the eradication of Israel.” > Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser, 1965 > “Our forces are now entirely ready not only to repulse the aggression, but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united…I, as a military man, believe that the time has come to begin a battle of annihilation.” > Syria’s Defense Minister Hafez Assad (later to be Syria’s President) > Israel Reaches Out for Peace: > “Even as the cannons roar we shall not cease from longing for peace. Our only desire is to remove from our borders any threat of sabotage and every danger of aggression, to safeguard our security and the fullness of our rights.” > Israeli Prime Minister Levy Eshkol, June 5, 1967 > Israel’s Arab neighbors unquestionably made clear their intentions to attack Israel. Their stated goal had nothing to do with a border dispute, but rather the destruction of the State of Israel. Yet, Israel’s response was always the same: A simple desire to live in peace. > Prior to the war Israel was the victim of numerous terrorist attacks launched from Jordan, the Gaza Strip and Lebanon. Continuous Syrian shelling from the Golan Heights on to Israeli towns and villages further highlighted Arab intentions. (For more details on these military and terrorist attacks against Israel, see resources appearing at the end of this report.) > All along the 1948 armistice lines, Arab armies engaged in an enormous military build-up. Egypt ordered United Nations peacekeepers stationed in the Sinai to leave. Shortly before the start of the war, Israel was confronted by an Arab force of some 465,000 troops, over 2,880 tanks and 810 aircraft. The armies of Kuwait, Algeria, Saudi Arabia and Iraq were also contributing troops and arms to the Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian fronts. > Israel is Attacked and Captures Territory > Egypt Initiates War With Israel: Israel Captures Sinai and Gaza > Egypt chose to further escalate hostilities. The narrow Straits of Tiran were closed to Israeli shipping creating a naval blockade, preventing Israeli ships from reaching the port of Eilat - in violation of international law and an act of war. > The United States was clear in its policy. According to U.S. President Johnson: > If a single act of folly was more responsible for this explosion than any other it was the arbitrary and dangerous announced decision that the Strait of Tiran would be closed. The right of innocent maritime passage must be preserved for all nations. > Faced with potential annihilation, Israel chose to launch a pre-emptive strike, destroying the Egyptian and Syrian air forces while still on the ground. > Syria Initiates War With Israel: Israel Captures the Golan Heights > From the start of the war, Syria took part in the fighting with planes and artillery, continuously shelling Israeli villages near the border and attacking some of them with infantry and armor. There were no serious Israeli counter attacks until 9 June, when the Israel Defense Forces, now freed from other fronts, attacked the Syrian army entrenched on the Golan Heights. In fierce fighting, they stormed the Heights and occupied the town of Kuneitra on the afternoon of June 10. > Jordan Initiates War With Israel: Israel Captures Jerusalem and the West Bank > Despite the many terrorist attacks that had emanated from the Jordanian-occupied West Bank, Israel specifically told King Hussein that Jordan would not be attacked unless Jordan chose to enter the war. As the fighting raged, Prime Minister Levy Eshkol sent the following message to King Hussein of Jordan: > We are engaged in defensive fighting on the Egyptian sector, and we shall not engage ourselves in any action against Jordan, unless Jordan attacks us. Should Jordan attack Israel, we shall go against her with all our might. > However, upon receiving information (later proving false) that Israel was being defeated, King Hussein ordered that Israel be attacked. On June 5: > • civilian suburbs of Tel-Aviv were shelled by artillery; > • Israel’s largest military airfield, Ramat David, was shelled; > • Jordanian warplanes attacked the central Israeli towns of Netanya and Kfar Saba; > • thousands of mortar shells rained down on West Jerusalem hitting civilian locations indiscriminately, including the Hadassah Hospital and the Mount Zion Church; > • Israel’s parliament building (the Knesset) and the Prime Minister’s office, each in Israeli-controlled West Jerusalem, were targeted; > • 20 Israelis died in these attacks; 1000 were wounded. 900 buildings in West Jerusalem were damaged. > Only after coming under fire and sustaining casualties did the Israeli military respond, resulting in the re-unification of Jerusalem and control of the entire West Bank. The record is clear; this acquisition of land was the direct result of Jordanian, not Israeli military aggression. > One week later, having successfully defended herself, Israel was in control of the West Bank, the Sinai Peninsula, the Gaza Strip, and the Golan Heights. > The Legal Status of Land Taken in 1967 > > 1. Israel’s Legitimate Claims: > Some parts of the West Bank would have been part of Israel as defined by the UN Partition Plan, but were overrun in 1948. There were Jewish communities such as Kfar Etzion, not to mention the Old City of Jerusalem, which fell in the fighting of 1948. Jews were either killed or expelled from these areas conquered by invading Arab armies. > The League of Nations Mandate explicitly recognized the right of Jewish settlement in all territory allocated to the Jewish national home in the context of the British Mandate. The British Mandate covered the area that is currently Israel, all the disputed territories (and even what is now Jordan). These rights under the British Mandate were preserved by the United Nations, under Article 49 of the UN Charter. > 2. Defensive War: > Military control of the West Bank was clearly the result of a defensive war. According to Dr. Dore Gold, Director of the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs: > International jurists generally draw a distinction between situations of “aggressive conquest” and territorial disputes that arise after a war of self-defense. Former State Department Legal Advisor Stephen Schwebel, who later headed the International Court of Justice in the Hague, wrote in 1970 regarding Israel’s case: “Where the prior holder of territory had seized that territory unlawfully, the state which subsequently takes that territory in the lawful exercise of self-defense has, against that prior holder, better title.” > 3. Forced Transfer of Civilian Populations: > There are mistaken claims that Israel’s control of these territories violates the Fourth Geneva Convention. The Fourth Geneva Convention was adopted August 12, 1949 by the international community in response to Nazi atrocities during World War II. It outlaws the resettlement by an occupying power of its own civilians on territory under its military control, specifically “individual or mass forcible transfers.” > The only forced mass transfers were against Jewish communities in 1948. After the Six Day War, Israel did not expel a single Arab community from land it now controlled. > The “Occupying Power” may also not “deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population” to territories taken in conflict. Israel has never forced Jews to move to the territories. However, there is no obligation for Israel to prevent voluntary settlement by its civilian population. > 4. United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 > After the war, there were many opinions as to what a peace agreement should require of the parties. The view of the Soviet Union and Arab bloc was that Israel should be forced to withdraw from all lands taken in the war. However, this view did not prevail in the United Nations. > According to the American Israel Cooperative Enterprise: > The most controversial clause in Resolution 242 is the call for the “Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict.” This is linked to the second unambiguous clause calling for “termination of all claims or states of belligerency” and the recognition that “every State in the area” has the “right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.” > > The resolution does not make Israeli withdrawal a prerequisite for Arab action. Moreover, it does not specify how much territory Israel is required to give up. The Security Council did not say Israel must withdraw from “all the” territories occupied after the Six-Day war. This was quite deliberate. The Soviet delegate wanted the inclusion of those words and said that their exclusion meant “that part of these territories can remain in Israeli hands.” The Arab states pushed for the word “all” to be included, but this was rejected. The Arab League then rejected the entire resolution. Nonetheless, it was approved by the Security Council. > > The resolutions clearly call on the Arab states to make peace with Israel. The principal condition is that Israel withdraw from “territories occupied” in 1967, which means that Israel must withdraw from some, all, or none of the territories still occupied. Israel withdrew from 95% of the territories when it gave up the Sinai and then Gaza. It has already partially, if not wholly, fulfilled its obligation under 242. > In addition, the Arab reaction to the resolution was not to make peace but instead the “Three No’s” of the Khartoum Conference of August 1967: > • No peace with Israel > • No recognition of Israel > • No negotiation with Israel > Forty Years of Suffering? > Since launching a terror war in 2000, Palestinian living standards have undoubtedly declined as the Palestinian leadership adopted violence ahead of nation building and investing in civil society. Contrary to some claims in the media, “occupation” is not the primary reason for the current plight of the Palestinians. As Dr Mitchell Bard, Director of the Jewish Virtual Library points out: > When Israel captured the West Bank and Gaza Strip in 1967, officials took measures to improve the conditions that Palestinians had lived under during Jordan’s 19-year occupation of the West Bank, and Egypt’s occupation of Gaza. Universities were opened, Israeli agricultural innovations were shared, modern conveniences were introduced, and health care was significantly upgraded. More than 100,000 Palestinians were employed in Israel, and were paid the same wages as Israeli workers, which stimulated economic growth. > > Despite the collapse of the PA economy from the last five years of war, Palestinian Arabs are still better off than many of their neighbors. The most recent Human Development Report from the United Nations ranked the PA 102nd in terms of life expectancy, educational attainment and adjusted real income out of the 177 countries and territories in the world, placing it in the “medium human development” category along with most of the other Middle Eastern states (only the Gulf sheikdoms are ranked “high”). The PA was ranked just 12 places below Jordan and one behind Iran; it was rated ahead of Syria (#105), Algeria (#108), Egypt (#120), and Morocco (#125). ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1017 "2010-06-06T19:23:41Z")
**"Even as the cannons roar we shall not cease from longing for peace."** Seriously? An Israeli PM said that? That is just so much hypocritical bs. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1018 "2010-06-06T19:31:52Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I hope not but the Turks might do so only because it is working political wonders for a government that apparently has been on the ropes like every other incumbent government in the world. Got a cite for that? It’s not my impression that AKP has been losing ground to anyone. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1019 "2010-06-06T19:42:13Z")
Several posts have indicated that Israel was stupid for attacking a Turkish flotilla because Turkey has been a great friend of Israel. I answered that before, briefly, but that statement has again been expressed. Turkey recently has declared that Hamas is not a terrorist organization even though the US, Israel, and most of the “international community” have stated that she is. Turkey has also undertaken action recently indicating that she wishes to be divorced from her Israeli friendship, including the launching of this flotilla, and that she wants to be allied with Hamas, Iran, Syria, and other Arab states. Perhaps in the near future all the facts will be ironed out as to exactly what happened on 5/31. This much is known: Five ships were towed to port without casualty. A subsequent ship obediently obeyed Israel’s enforcement of the blockade. The one ship that had casualties had members of terrorists’ organizations on board. The intention of the ship with casualties was to break the blockade and confront the Israelis. If those on board did not so confront the Israelis, nobody would’ve been hurt. Israel contends that she is delivering humanitarian aid, and she has allowed humanitarian aid in the vessels to be delivered to Gaza, but she has to inspect the goods to eliminate materiel that can be used against her. Many do not understand the need for the blockade. If ships are allowed to enter Gaza without inspection, Gaza (and Hamas) will be equipped with a better arsenal and increase her bombardment of Israel. (BTW, I repeat, the UN has not taken any steps to protect Israel in this regard. In Lebanon, a UN force is supposed to be present, but from all reports, the UN personnel there are actually helping Hezbollah.) The UN is controlled by the Arab states and Israel can not look for any help in that direction - only hindrance. Israel is under an existential threat: her very existence is threated from all directions. As noted by a different poster, even Europe now appears to be antisemitic, and that was before this incident. England has always been antisemitic, and it has spread to France and other countries. The poster did not know the reason, but stated it appeared to have morphed from an anti-Zion culture, which doesn’t explain where the anti-Zionism arose. I’ll also note that although Hamas has been building nice seaside resorts, she has left basic infrastructure, such as schools, to flounder. She has the money for resorts but not for basic needs. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1020 "2010-06-06T19:48:11Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > **“Even as the cannons roar we shall not cease from longing for peace.”** > > Seriously? An Israeli PM said that? That is just so much hypocritical bs. You can’t be serious. Nobody wants peace more than Israel. Her very existence depends upon peace. The Palestine leaders want peace, too, but on their terms: no Jewish state. Many Palestinians do not object to a Jewish state beside a state of Palestine, just so long as there is peace. I wish to reiterate that the Palestinian maps do not show a state of Israel, but label the entire area as “Palestine.” I also wish to reiterate that the destruction of Israel remains in the Palestine charter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=50) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=52)