# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\]

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765>\
**Category:** Great Debates\
**Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 54

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**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\
**Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1061 "2010-06-07T19:00:04Z")

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> [@barbitu8](#):
>
> I don’t have time now to completely analyze the details in the link. Perhaps there is some truth to some of the allegations and photos, but some statements need clarification. What is “long-term”? Hamas has said it has been willing to enter a truce for several months. This is unacceptable to Israel because that would give Hamas time to rebuild her armament, as she has done in the past, and as Hezbollah did in Lebanon. Israel wants an armistice and a peace treaty which would recognize her right to exist. That is something Palestine (including the Fatah faction) has been unwilling to accept.

I think the Hamas offer was a 10 year cease fire for 1967 borders.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\
**Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1062 "2010-06-07T19:01:24Z")

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> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#):
>
> Because then it would deliver everything without Israel confiscating items from the “no no” list, and it would remove any doubt as to their real intentions. I mean, if their intent is solely to bring aid to people in Gaza that need it, wouldn’t that be a more prudent course of action now that Egypt has lifted its blockade?

I don’t think that is their sole intent. much like getting cheap salt was gandhi’s sole intent.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\
**Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1063 "2010-06-07T19:34:00Z")

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> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#):
>
> The people (very rarely) firing rockets aren’t Hamas, they’re other groups.

What other groups?

Hamas was elected due to Fatah corruption, but I understand that the people are not happy with Hamas because they have confiscated their properties to erect military installations.

As to the teenager shot five times at close range, I’d empty my gun, too, at somebody trying to stab me.

HEAVY WEAPONS FOUND IN THE CARGO OF THE M/S. MAVI MARMARA FLOTILLA VESSEL.  
This video shows that during the unloading of the Marmara boat in the port  
of Ashdod, behind the bags of flour were boxes of heavy weapons and  
ammunition: mortars, artillery shells, bazookas, without counting a trunk  
where more than one million euros was found intended for Hamas. Clearly the Turkish AKP Islamist government is complicit in permitting this military cargo to be loaded on the ‘peaceful’ Free Gaza Flotilla. The French explains that the arms on display were hidden behind sacks of grain.

Have patience with this video. First there is a commercial for Pantene! But  
wait until it’s over. \<[http://www.flix.co.il/tapuz/showVideo.asp?m=3423928&gt](http://www.flix.co.il/tapuz/showVideo.asp?m=3423928&gt);  
\<[http://www.flix.co.il/tapuz/showVideo.asp?m=3423928&gt](http://www.flix.co.il/tapuz/showVideo.asp?m=3423928&gt);  
In addition to hiding weapons meant to kill Israel civilians, the  
“humanitarian aid” workers viciously attacked Israeli soldiers. Below, a  
first hand account from Amir, an Israeli soldier who was there.

"Hello Uncle Erwin,

This is Amir writing you after reading what you sent to my father, Eitan. As  
you know, it was my unit and my friends who were on the ship. My commander  
was injured badly as a result of the “pacifists” violence. I want to tell  
you how he was injured so you could tell the story. it shows just how  
horrible and inhuman were the activists. My commander was the first soldier  
that rappelled down from the helicopter to the ship. When he touched ground,  
he got hit in the head with a pole and stabbed in the stomach with a knife.  
When he drew out his secondary weapon-a handgun (his primary weapon was a  
regular paintball gun: “Tippman 98 custom”) he was shot in the leg. He  
managed to fire a single shot before he was tossed from the balcony by 4  
Arab activists, to the lower deck (a 12 feet fall). He was then dragged by  
other activists to a room in the lower deck were he was stripped down by 2  
activists. They took off his vest, helmet and shirt, leaving him with only  
his pants and shoes on. When they finished they took a knife and expanded  
the wound he already had in his stomach. They cut his ab muscles  
horizontally and by hand spilled his guts out. When they finished they  
raised him up and walked him on the deck outside. He was conscious the whole  
time. If you are asking yourself why they did all that, here comes the  
reason. They wanted to show the soldiers their commander’s body so they will  
be demoralized and scared. Luckily, when they walked him on the deck a  
soldier saw him and managed to shoot the activist that was walking him down  
the outside corridor. He shot him with a special non-lethal bullet that  
didn’t kill him. My commander managed to jump from the deck to the water and  
swim to an army rescue boat (his guts still out of his body, and now in  
salty sea water). That was how he was saved. The activists that did this to  
him are alive, now in Turkey, and treated as heroes.

I’m sorry if I described this with too many details, but I thought it was  
necessary for the credibility. Please tell this story to anyone who will  
listen. I think that these days you are one of Israel’s best spokesman.

Thanks uncle Erwin, Shabbat shalom!

Amir

It appears that the Reuters news agency may have deliberately cropped the Hurriyet  
photo so as to remove the knife that the “peace activist” was holding.

If so, it wouldn’t be the first time Reuters had been caught altering photos  
to make them less sympathetic to Israel. Reuters did so, for example, in the  
2006 Hizbullah-Israel war.

See Reuters and AP photos from today here:

\<[Did Reuters Crop a Photo to Remove a Peace Activist's Weapon? - Little Green Footballs](http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/36488_Did_Reuters_Crop_a_Photo_to_Remove_a_Peace_Activists_Weapon&gt);

The Washington Post editorial:

> [@](#):
>
> TURKEY MUST BE THE FOCUS OF ANY INTERNATIONAL INVESTIGATION
> 
> Turkey’s Erdogan bears responsibility in flotilla fiasco  
> Editorial  
> The Washington Post  
> June 5, 2010
> 
> WESTERN GOVERNMENTS have been right to be concerned about Israel’s poor  
> judgment and botched execution in the raid against the Free Gaza flotilla.  
> But they ought to be at least as worried about the Turkish government of  
> Recep Tayyip Erdogan, which since Monday has shown a sympathy toward Islamic  
> militants and a penchant for grotesque demagoguery toward Israel that ought  
> to be unacceptable for a member of NATO.
> 
> On the opposite page today, Turkey’s ambassador to the United States makes  
> the argument that Israel had no cause to clash with the “European lawmakers,  
> journalists, business leaders and an 86-year-old Holocaust survivor” who  
> were aboard the flotilla. But there was no fighting with those people, or  
> with five of the six boats in the fleet. All of the violence occurred aboard  
> the Turkish ferry Mavi Marmara, and all of those who were killed were  
> members or volunteers for the Islamic “charity” that owned the ship, the  
> Humanitarian Relief Foundation (IHH).
> 
> The relationship between Mr. Erdogan’s government and the IHH ought to be  
> one focus of any international investigation into the incident. The  
> foundation is a member of the “Union of Good,” a coalition that was formed  
> to provide material support to Hamas and that was named as a terrorist  
> entity by the United States in 2008. In discussions before the flotilla  
> departed, Turkish officials turned down offers from both Israel and Egypt to  
> deliver the “humanitarian” supplies on the boats to Gaza and insisted Ankara  
> could not control what it described as a nongovernmental organization.
> 
> Yet the IHH has certainly done its best to promote Mr. Erdogan. “All the  
> peoples of the Islamic world would want a leader like Recep Tayyip Erdogan,”  
> IHH chief Bulent Yildirim proclaimed at a Hamas rally in Gaza last year. And  
> Mr. Erdogan seems to share that notion: In the days since an incident that  
> the IHH admits it provoked, the Turkish prime minister has done his best to  
> compete with Iran’s Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Hezbollah’s Hasan Nasrallah in  
> attacking the Jewish state.
> 
> “The heart of humanity has taken one of her heaviest wounds in history,” Mr.  
> Erdogan claimed this week. He has had next to nothing to say about the  
> slaughter of Iranians protesting last year’s fraudulent elections, but he  
> called Israel’s actions “state terrorism” and a “bloody massacre” and  
> described Israel itself as an “adolescent, rootless state.” His foreign  
> minister, Ahmet Davutoglu, said in Washington on Tuesday that “this attack  
> is like 9/11 for Turkey” – an obscene comparison to events in which more  
> than 2,900 genuinely innocent people were killed.
> 
> Mr. Erdogan’s crude attempt to exploit the incident comes only a couple of  
> weeks after he joined Brazil’s president in linking arms with Mr.  
> Ahmadinejad, whom he is assisting in an effort to block new U.N. sanctions.  
> What’s remarkable about his turn toward extremism is that it comes after  
> more than a year of assiduous courting by the Obama administration, which,  
> among other things, has overlooked his antidemocratic behavior at home,  
> helped him combat the Kurdish PKK and catered to Turkish sensitivities about  
> the Armenian genocide. Israel is suffering the consequences of its  
> misjudgments and disregard of U.S. interests. Will Mr. Erdogan’s behavior be  
> without cost?
> 
> Reliable Palestinian sources have revealed that among the activists who were onboard the Mavi Marmari were the grandson and son-in-law of Sheikh Abdullah Yusuf Azzam, the radical teacher and mentor of al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden.  
> Azzam’s 19-year-old grandson, Muhammad, was accompanied by his father, Abdullah Anas, who is married to the sheikh’s daughter, Summaya. Another grandson, Ahmed, 17, is planning to join the next convoy to Gaza.  
> In a speech he made while in Brooklyn, Azzam urged his followers to wage jihad in the U.S. He explained that jihad “means fighting only, fighting with the sword.”  
> When the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan in 1979, Azzam moved to Afghanistan declaring that “jihad to the death” was fard ayn [a personal obligation] for all Muslims.  
> He later convinced his friend and long-time associate, bin Laden, to come to Afghanistan and join the jihad.  
> Azzam’s trademark slogan was “Jihad and the rifle alone: no negotiations, no conferences and no dialogues.” He was killed by a bomb blast in his car in Peshawar, Pakistan, in 1989.  
> His daughter, who lives in London, said she was proud to be raising her children in the path of their grandfather.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\
**Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1064 "2010-06-07T19:40:32Z")

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My prior links didn’t work. Try these:

[http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/36488\_Did\_Reuters\_Crop\_a\_Photo\_to\_Remove\_a\_Peace\_Activists\_Weapon](http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/36488_Did_Reuters_Crop_a_Photo_to_Remove_a_Peace_Activists_Weapon)

[http://www.flix.co.il/tapuz/showVideo.asp?m=3423928](http://www.flix.co.il/tapuz/showVideo.asp?m=3423928)

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\
**Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1065 "2010-06-07T19:46:41Z")

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As to terrorists abroad, click on this link:

[http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/new/Go\_Back\_to\_Auschwitz\_A\_Message\_From\_the\_Flotilla.asp](http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/new/Go_Back_to_Auschwitz_A_Message_From_the_Flotilla.asp)

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\
**Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1066 "2010-06-07T19:52:05Z")

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> [@barbitu8](#):
>
> I don’t have time now to completely analyze the details in the link. Perhaps there is some truth to some of the allegations and photos, but some statements need clarification. What is “long-term”? Hamas has said it has been willing to enter a truce for several months. This is unacceptable to Israel because that would give Hamas time to rebuild her armament, as she has done in the past, and as Hezbollah did in Lebanon. Israel wants an armistice and a peace treaty which would recognize her right to exist. That is something Palestine (including the Fatah faction) has been unwilling to accept.

I wish people would get their facts straight :rolleyes:

Time after time the leaders of Hamas have offered a 10 YEAR hudna. It is NOT a few months. Each ceasefire which was agreed by Hamas was broken by Israel. The last one 6 months before the last Gaza War in 08/09 was broken by IDF attacks on Gaza.

In Islam a 10 year hudna is all a Muslim is allowed to offer to a non Muslim aggressor, BUT it can be renewed.

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**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\
**Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1067 "2010-06-07T19:54:17Z")

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We don’t want a hudna, we want peace - real peace between nations. If they are unwilling to even consider the possibility, why bother talking to them?

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**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\
**Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1068 "2010-06-07T19:58:24Z")

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Try telling your leaders that, if they’ll listen. Israel wants peace on her terms, or not at all.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\
**Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1069 "2010-06-07T20:00:43Z")

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> [@Marley23](#):
>
> **AGAIN** , we have said repeatedly that these kinds of comments are not going to be tolerated in this thread. This is a warning for ignoring moderator instructions.

I’d like to ask why this comment is not tolerated.  
Because I am totally confused why this would get a warning.

I am being serious here. I have no idea why?😕

I am genuinely mystified by this.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\
**Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1070 "2010-06-07T20:13:21Z")

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IDF admits it ‘doctored’ video.

This is the one Mark Regev said on various interviews here showed the Marmara terrorists shouting anti Israel slogans and even went as far as telling the viewers to go and watch it.

Clearly lying until they could sustain the deception no longer.

Sickening!

[http://maxblumenthal.com/2010/06/idf-admits-it-doctored-flotilla-audio-clip-washington-posts-kessler-must-retract/](http://maxblumenthal.com/2010/06/idf-admits-it-doctored-flotilla-audio-clip-washington-posts-kessler-must-retract/)

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\
**Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1071 "2010-06-07T20:14:24Z")

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An article by Aron Heller of the AP in today’s local paper stated that Netanyahu’s office released a statement saying he discussed the international criticism with world leaders, including Veep Joe Biden, the president of France, and the premier of Canada. Released videos showed a crowd of men attacking several naval commandos as they landed on a ship from a helicopter, beating the soldiers with clubs and other objects and hurling one soldier overboard. The military displayed pictures of knives, slingshos and metal rods confiscated from the “activists,” and video seized from security cameras - and reporters - on board the ship show a group of young men brandishing clubs and other weapons ahead of the arrival of the soldiers. The use of video confiscate from journalists drew sharp criticism from the Foreign Press Association in Israel, which demanded the military stop using the footage.

On Sunay, the Turkish daily Hurriyet showed new pictures taken by unidentified people of wounded Israeli commandos, including some with bloodied faces.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\
**Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1072 "2010-06-07T20:15:35Z")

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[QUOTE=Marmite Lover]  
I am being serious here. I have no idea why?  
[/QUOTE]

PM him or start a thread in ATMB…that’s what that forum is for. I’d take the PM route, personally, that way it’s not part of a public discussion and will avoid any embarrassment…

-XT

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\
**Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1073 "2010-06-07T20:31:40Z")

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> [@Marmite\_Lover](#):
>
> I’d like to ask why this comment is not tolerated.  
> Because I am totally confused why this would get a warning.

See this post from early in this thread:

> [@tomndebb](#):
>
> This sort of inflammatory language is not, strictly, against the rules, but in the context of an emotional thread, it does nothing to promote the discuission.
> 
> **FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS THREAD, ANY FURTHER INFLAMMATORY REMARKS WILL BE WARNED.**

I’ve asked **tomndebb** if he agrees the post deserved a warning. But my reading was the comparison was inflammatory, and frankly ridiculous and not applicable to the situation: seeing as how Hitler was dead after the war, he wasn’t making any demands about investigations into the SS. You could have made a point about the conflicts of interest in Israel investigating itself without dragging the Nazis into it as an out-of-place slam on the country.

Like **xtisme** said, if you have other questions send me a private message or start a thread in the About This Message Board forum. Please don’t expect me to reply further until I’ve talked with **tomndebb**.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\
**Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1074 "2010-06-07T20:41:27Z")

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Yediot Ahronot’s senior military analyst, Alex Fishman provided the  
following Q&A relating to the commando operation that  
took over the Mavi Marmara.

Q: Why weren’t chains or ropes used to jam the propellers of the ship?

A: It wouldn’t work. Any method that requires sending frogmen near  
propellers that are running is unacceptably dangerous.

Q: Why were ships simply placed to block the boat?

A: A boat can’t block another ship. The only way a ship can effectively  
stop another one is by ramming it.

Q: Why not ram the boat?

A: You need to hit it with a heavier ship. The Mavi Mamara might have sunk  
if hit.

Q: Why not wait until the boat is within the 20 miles of Gaza so not in  
international waters?

A: A contingent of (AL: according to the Palestinian news agency Maan 100  
vessels) vessels were going to try to reach the boat if it reached the  
area – including boats that could have been loaded with explosives that  
would blow up near Israeli boats.

For Immediate Release  
IDF Spokesperson June 6th, 2010  
21:30

Specific Flotilla Passengers are Active terror Operatives linked to  
Al-Qaeda, Hamas, and other Organizations

The following passengers on board the Mavi Marmara are known to be involved  
in terrorist activity. The Mavi Marmara attempted to break the maritime  
closure on the Gaza Strip on Monday, May 31st 2010, and was boarded by  
Israel Navy forces.

Fatimah Mahmadi (born 1979), is a United States resident of Iranian origin,  
and an active member of the organization “Viva Palestine”, she attempted to  
smuggle forbidden electronic components into the Gaza Strip.

Ken O’Keefe (Born 1969), an American and British citizen, is a radical  
anti-Israel activist and operative of the Hamas Terror organization. He  
attempted to enter the Gaza Strip in order to form and train a commando unit  
for the Palestinian terror organization.

Hassan Iynasi (born 1982), a Turkish citizen and activist in a Turkish  
charity organization, is known of providing financial support to the  
Palestinian Islamic Jihad Terror organization.

Hussein Urosh, a Turkish citizen and activist in the IHH organization, was  
on his way to the Gaza Strip in order to assist in smuggling Al-Qaeda  
operatives via Turkey into the Strip.

## Ahmad Umimon (born 1959), is a French citizen of Moroccan origin, and an operative of the Hamas Terrorist organization.

From: imra@netvision.net.il  
To: imra@imra.org.il  
Subject: Israel obeyed international law: Legally,  
the Gaza flotilla conflict is an open-and-shut case

Israel obeyed international law: Legally, the Gaza flotilla conflict is an  
open-and-shut case  
By Alan Dershowitz Wednesday, June 2nd 2010, 4:00 AM  
[www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/06/02/2010-06-02\_israel\_obeyed\_international\_law\_legally\_the\_gaza\_flotilla\_conflict\_is\_an\_openand.html#ixzz0pnmBy88E](http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/06/02/2010-06-02_israel_obeyed_international_law_legally_the_gaza_flotilla_conflict_is_an_openand.html#ixzz0pnmBy88E)

Although the wisdom of Israel’s actions in stopping the Gaza flotilla is  
open to question, the legality of its actions is not. What Israel did was  
entirely consistent with both international and domestic law. In order to  
understand why, the complex events at sea must be deconstructed.

First, there is the Israeli blockade of Gaza. Recall that when Israel ended  
its occupation of Gaza, it did not impose a blockade. Indeed, it left behind  
agricultural facilities in the hope that the newly liberated Gaza Strip  
would become a peaceful and productive area.

Instead, Hamas seized control over Gaza and engaged in acts of warfare  
against Israel. These acts of warfare featured anti-personnel rockets,  
nearly 10,000 of them, directed at Israeli civilians. This was not only an  
act of warfare, it was a war crime. Israel responded to the rockets by  
declaring a blockade, the purpose of which was to assure that no rockets or  
other material that could be used for making war against Israeli civilians  
were permitted into Gaza.

Israel allowed humanitarian aid through its checkpoints. Egypt as well  
participated in the blockade. There was never a humanitarian crisis in Gaza,  
merely a shortage of certain goods that would end if the rocket attacks  
ended.

The legality of blockades as a response to acts of war is not subject to  
serious doubt. When the United States blockaded Cuba during the missile  
crisis, the State Department issued an opinion declaring the blockade to be  
lawful. This despite the fact that Cuba had not engaged in any act of  
belligerence against the United States. Other nations have similarly  
enforced naval blockades to assure their own security.

The second issue is whether it is lawful to enforce a legal blockade in  
international waters. Again, law and practice are clear. If there is no  
doubt that the offending ships have made a firm determination to break the  
blockade, then the blockade may be enforced before the offending ships cross  
the line into domestic waters. Again the United States and other Western  
countries have frequently boarded ships at high sea in order to assure their  
security.

Third, were those onboard the ship simply innocent noncombatants? The act of  
breaking a military siege is itself a military act. And let there be no  
mistake about the purpose of this flotilla; it was decidedly not to provide  
humanitarian aid to the residents of Gaza, but rather to break the entirely  
lawful Israeli military blockade. The proof lies in the fact that both  
Israel and Egypt offered to have all the food, medicine and other  
humanitarian goods sent to Gaza, if the boats agreed to land in an Israeli  
or Egyptian port. That humanitarian offer was soundly rejected by the  
leaders of the flotilla, who publicly announced: “This mission is not about  
delivering humanitarian supplies, it’s about breaking Israel’s siege on 1.5  
million Palestinians.”

It is a close question whether “civilians” who agree to participate in the  
breaking of a military blockade have become combatants. They are certainly  
something different from pure innocents, and perhaps they are also somewhat  
different from pure armed combatants.

Finally, we come to the issue of the right of self-defense engaged in by  
Israeli soldiers who were attacked by activists on the boat. There can be  
little doubt that the moment any person on the boat picked up a weapon and  
began to attack Israeli soldiers, they lost their status as innocent  
civilians.

Even if that were not the case, under ordinary civilian rules of  
self-defense, every Israeli soldier had the right to protect himself and his  
colleagues from attack by knife- and pipe-wielding assailants. Lest there be  
any doubt that Israeli soldiers were under attack, simply view the online  
video and watch the so-called peaceful activists pummel Israeli soldiers  
with metal rods.

Every individual has the right to repel such attacks by the use of lethal  
force. That was especially true in this case, when the soldiers were so  
outnumbered on the deck of the ship. Recall that Israel’s rules of  
engagement required its soldiers to fire only paintballs unless their lives  
were in danger.

Would any country in the world deny its soldiers the right of self-defense  
under comparable circumstances?

Israel’s critics fail to pinpoint precisely what Israel did that allegedly  
violates international law. Some have wrongly focused on the blockade  
itself. Others have erroneously pointed to the location of the boarding in  
international waters. Most have simply pointed to the deaths of so-called  
peace activists, though these deaths appear to be the result of lawful acts  
of self-defense.

There can be little doubt that the mission was a failure, as judged by its  
results. It is important, however, to distinguish between faulty policies  
and alleged violations of international law. Only the latter would warrant  
international intervention, and the case has simply not been made that  
Israel violated international law.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\
**Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1075 "2010-06-07T20:55:45Z")

</div>

[http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0610/ahlert060710.php3](http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0610/ahlert060710.php3)

> [@](#):
>
> This is where the West has lost its way. An interconnected globe with a 24 hour news cycle may demand short-term thinking, but basing military strategy on day-to-day world opinion is a fool’s errand. It is exactly why we will let Iran acquire a nuclear weapon: another centrifuge here, another economic sanction there, and on one gets really excited. But an all-out military effort to prevent a bunch of megalomaniacal fanatics from going nuclear is a bridge too far. One of the first considerations South Korea made with regard to North Korea torpedoing a ship killing 46 of its sailors was what effect retaliation would have on its stock market.
> 
> Better not to cause a market “correction” based on self-defense, I guess.
> 
> Of all the countries in the world, Israel is the most vulnerable to PC warfare. it is a country completely surrounded by its mortal enemies in a world that invariably gives those enemies the benefit of the doubt whenever there is conflict. Only a country besotted by PC warfare strategies could have been blind to what would happen when they attempted to enforce the blockade of Gaza in the most “enlightened” way possible. Even in 2006, when Hezbollah in Lebanon provided Israelis with a golden opportunity to inflict long-term or possibly permanent damage to one of its mortal enemies, they were brow-beaten into leaving the job unfinished.
> 
> Short-term result? An end to hostilities. Long-term result? Hezbollah has re-armed and another war is highly likely this summer.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\
**Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1076 "2010-06-07T20:58:00Z")

</div>

> [@Marmite\_Lover](#):
>
> Clearly lying until they could sustain the deception no longer.

Not according to your own cite.

> [@](#):
>
> So to clarify: the audio was edited down to cut out periods of silence over the radio as well as incomprehensible comments so as to make it easier for people to listen to the exchange. We have now uploaded the entire segment of 5 minutes and 58 seconds in which the exchange took place and the comments were made.
> 
> This transmission had originally cited the Mavi Marmara ship as being the source of these remarks, however, due to an open channel, the specific ship or ships in the “Freedom Flotilla” responding to the Israeli Navy could not be identified. During radio transmissions between Israeli Navy and the ships of the “Free Gaza” Flotilla on 31 May 2010, the Israeli Navy ship attempts to make contact with the ‘Defne Y’ on channel 1-6. Other ships from the flotilla respond on the channel, without identifying themselves. At some point during the radio exchange the Israeli Navy is told by one of the ships to “shut up, go back to Auschwitz” (2:05) and “don’t forget 9-11? (5:42).

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\
**Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1077 "2010-06-07T21:00:28Z")

</div>

Hang on when did Hitler die?

I thought that there was no proof? Am I wrong?  
Wasn’t there plenty stories about him escaping.

So if they had caught him, after the war he **could** have insisted because he was clearly mad, that he be allowed to investigate himself, the SS, his policies. If he did not die then that was a possibility. As I said I am not aware of his date of death or grave.

Would the Jews in Auchwitz have been happy with that investigation?  
Would the rest of the world? The allies?

I doubt it just as no one would accept North Korea’s findings in the torpedo incident if they were allowed to investigate themselves.

I was demonstrating how lucicrous it would be.  
If you insist Hitler died then there is no use me arguing that with you. Please delete the post in that case.

Sometimes you have to accept that peoples minds work in different ways, grammar gets jumbled, and language can often be misunderstood especially when the language is not a mother tongue.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\
**Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1078 "2010-06-07T21:44:21Z")

</div>

> [@Marmite\_Lover](#):
>
> Hang on when did Hitler die?

April 30, 1945. Yes, there’s plenty of proof, including numerous other people in the bunker who heard him shoot himself and a few who helped burn his body and the body of Eva Braun. (He also poisoned himself with cyande. He’d had a capsule tested on his dog.) Everybody down there with him knew what he was going to do. He’d married Eva the day before and I think he’d updated his will. The Russians later found the bodies, burned them again, and I think they dumped them in a river nearby. Not all of this was known at the time, and there were a lot of rumors he escaped and wound up in South America, where a bunch of other Nazis really did go. Some of those rumors survive because it’s hard to kill a rumor and people love a good story. But at this point it’s been established very thoroughly that he killed himself in the bunker so the Soviets wouldn’t get their hands on him. Wikipedia has a lengthy summary.

I did not think this was going to be an issue in this thread. 😉

All of that having been said, I understand what you’re saying about a conflict of interest in the investigation. It’s an obvious objection and it’s a reasonable one. It just doesn’t have anything to do with Nazis.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\
**Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1079 "2010-06-07T21:50:26Z")

</div>

Cut him some slack. Godwin’s Law is unknown in the Arab world.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\
**Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1080 "2010-06-07T21:52:56Z")

</div>

> [@Alessan](#):
>
> We don’t want a hudna, we want peace - real peace between nations. If they are unwilling to even consider the possibility, why bother talking to them?

What’s Plan B? Wipe them out? Leave no male children to grow and seek vengeance? That’s the Old School way, after all.

If Israel had lost, say, the Six Day War, would you expect Israelis just to roll over and play dead, lick the hand of their enemies, convert to Islam, what? So what do you expect the Palestinians to do?

I’m not offering you something easy, I’m offering you something hard, frustrating, and difficult. I’m suggesting that you offer the hand of peace, have it slapped aside, and offer it again. I’m suggesting that you take a blow, and do not return it, because sooner or later, somebody has to, somebody has to take the last blow.

And I think only Israel can do that, I think only Israel is civilized, powerful and intelligent enough to do what must be done. The alternative is that all the rest of the civilzed world remains at risk until peace can be found. Remember Bismarck’s famous remark, that WWI would start over “some damn fool thing in the Balkans”. Some damn fool thing in the Middle East may kill millions of innocent people. Tomorrow. The day after.

Work for peace, and be prepared for the worst. They will call you coward, they will call you traitor, friends will turn away, ashamed of you. And your enemies will not think any the better of you, they will see you as weak, see you as an opportunity. Beat the drums of war, and they will rush to your side, and cheer you. Preach peace, and they will scorn you. But which is the path of the righteous man?

But there is a Palestinian man who’s heart hungers for peace as yours. Reach out to him. Embrace him, he is your brother. Bind his wounds, care for his children as if they were your own.

Is that easy for me to say, ten thousand miles away? Yes. I am not an Israeli, I am not a Palestinian. I can only speak the truth, as feeble as that is, and hope for the best.

But what is Plan B, if not this?

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