# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 55
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1081 "2010-06-07T22:30:15Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Going through Egypt would provoke the Israelis as well. The fact is, there doesn’t seem to be _anything_ that does not provoke the Israelis with respect to Gaza these days. That being the case, why go to the trouble of adding an extra country and crosscountry shipping to the aid equation? Wow, that statement is SO wrong. Ways to not provoke Israel: 1. Go through Egypt after getting Egyptian permission. 2. Take a boat but allow your boat to be searched. Don’t like some of the things that Israel blocks? Well, 3. Go to Israel and legally lobby for relaxation of the blockade’s list. Do NOT lobby to remove the blockade entirely. All of those options will get you what you want with no provocation involved what so ever. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1082 "2010-06-07T22:50:15Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > What’s Plan B? Wipe them out? Leave no male children to grow and seek vengeance? That’s the Old School way, after all. > > If Israel had lost, say, the Six Day War, would you expect Israelis just to roll over and play dead, lick the hand of their enemies, convert to Islam, what? So what do you expect the Palestinians to do? > > I’m not offering you something easy, I’m offering you something hard, frustrating, and difficult. I’m suggesting that you offer the hand of peace, have it slapped aside, and offer it again. I’m suggesting that you take a blow, and do not return it, because sooner or later, somebody has to, somebody has to take the last blow. > > And I think only Israel can do that, I think only Israel is civilized, powerful and intelligent enough to do what must be done. The alternative is that all the rest of the civilzed world remains at risk until peace can be found. Remember Bismarck’s famous remark, that WWI would start over “some damn fool thing in the Balkans”. Some damn fool thing in the Middle East may kill millions of innocent people. Tomorrow. The day after. > > Work for peace, and be prepared for the worst. They will call you coward, they will call you traitor, friends will turn away, ashamed of you. And your enemies will not think any the better of you, they will see you as weak, see you as an opportunity. Beat the drums of war, and they will rush to your side, and cheer you. Preach peace, and they will scorn you. But which is the path of the righteous man? > > But there is a Palestinian man who’s heart hungers for peace as yours. Reach out to him. Embrace him, he is your brother. Bind his wounds, care for his children as if they were your own. > > Is that easy for me to say, ten thousand miles away? Yes. I am not an Israeli, I am not a Palestinian. I can only speak the truth, as feeble as that is, and hope for the best. > > But what is Plan B, if not this? Plan B is to wait until they renounce violence and decide to accept us as their friends and neighbors. It may not be fair to ask that from them, but it will be the only thing that works. Peace doesn’t wash away hatred; you have to wash away your hatred before you can have peace. I respect your approach, but it’s too idealistic for the world we live in. The fact of the matter is that while most people are decent human beings, many are simply evil and will always be evil, and more likely or not, these people will be calling the shots. If I do what you say and accept their blows, then these people - the ones hitting me - will see their power grow, while those who would seek common ground will see theirs wane. They will hit us again, and again, and again, and they will never stop because hitting is all they ever want to do. The basic goodness of man and $1.50 will get you a cup of coffee at Dunkin Donuts. We Jews have learned a lot from history, mainly because much of history has been enacted upon our flesh. And we have learned that there’s no glory, no benefit, no holiness in being a victim. If someone hits you and you don’t stop him, he will never, ever stop until you are no more - and then what good are you? The dead have no value to anyone. The only way to stop being a victim is to refuse to be a victim, even if that means that someone else is a victim in your stead. And if you think that’s the most cynical thing you’ve ever heard in your life, maybe it is. Doesn’t make it any less true. And God help us all if we ever get to Plan C. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1083 "2010-06-07T23:18:21Z")
A question, from a rosy eyed, dreaming idealist. You’ve met cynics, yes? Have you ever met one who didn’t think of himself as a hard-headed realist? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1084 "2010-06-07T23:24:29Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Plan B is to wait until they renounce violence and decide to accept us as their friends and neighbors. It may not be fair to ask that from them, but it will be the only thing that works. So, until they have a perfect society, where nobody has any hostility to Israeli’s, the battle continues? As long as you are prepared to let the actions of any one individual negate all trust in the other side, and lash out disproportionately each time, then your predicament isn’t going to end until you are all dead. Try not to bring the rest of the world along with you. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1085 "2010-06-07T23:26:18Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > So, until they have a perfect society, where nobody has any hostility to Israeli’s, the battle continues? As long as you are prepared to let the actions of any one individual negate all trust in the other side, and lash out disproportionately each time, then your predicament isn’t going to end until you are all dead. > > Try not to bring the rest of the world along with you. People in power not being anti-Israel does not equal “a perfect society”. Do Egypt or Jordan have perfect societies? No. Do we have peace with them? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1086 "2010-06-07T23:34:34Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Plan B is to wait until they renounce violence and decide to accept us as their friends and neighbors. It may not be fair to ask that from them, but it will be the only thing that works. Peace doesn’t wash away hatred; you have to wash away your hatred before you can have peace. > > I respect your approach, but it’s too idealistic for the world we live in. The fact of the matter is that while most people are decent human beings, many are simply evil and will always be evil, and more likely or not, these people will be calling the shots. If I do what you say and accept their blows, then these people - the ones hitting me - will see their power grow, while those who would seek common ground will see theirs wane. They will hit us again, and again, and again, and they will never stop because hitting is all they ever want to do. The basic goodness of man and $1.50 will get you a cup of coffee at Dunkin Donuts. > > We Jews have learned a lot from history, mainly because much of history has been enacted upon our flesh. And we have learned that there’s no glory, no benefit, no holiness in being a victim. If someone hits you and you don’t stop him, he will never, ever stop until you are no more - and then what good are you? The dead have no value to anyone. The only way to stop being a victim is to refuse to be a victim, even if that means that someone else is a victim in your stead. And if you think that’s the most cynical thing you’ve ever heard in your life, maybe it is. Doesn’t make it any less true. > > And God help us all if we ever get to Plan C. So you’ve been at this for over 60 years and its probably not news to you that this isn’t working and at the current rate is never going to work short of genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1087 "2010-06-07T23:38:30Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So you’ve been at this for over 60 years and its probably not news to you that this isn’t working and at the current rate is never going to work short of genocide. Because your plan B is so much better right? A guy’s getting mugged-Stand there and take it! A woman is being raped-suck it up! A soldier is being shot at-don’t you DARE shoot back! ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1088 "2010-06-07T23:41:16Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So you’ve been at this for over 60 years and its probably not news to you that this isn’t working and at the current rate is never going to work short of genocide. I don’t agree. The situation has come a long way from the “three Nos” following the 6-Day war. Certainly there are still terrible problems, but there has also been considerable progress. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1089 "2010-06-08T00:51:22Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yep, like I figured you’ve erred in describing the facts. > Your original claim: > The facts: > You’ve had to ignore the difference between an indefinite pause in the peace process, and a permanent one. > This is not only not news, it’s certainly not the nonsense you’ve claimed about preventing “an eventual Palestinian state.” Arafat refused Camp David in 200 and instead started a war, a war that had been going on for four years by 2004 with fighting escalating in a number of ways. Everybody knew that Israel had decided to marginalize Arafat after he launched the second Intifada, not only is that not news, claiming that it was really opposition to any eventual Palestinian state (by citing something that said it was not opposition to any eventual Palestinian state) simply does not fly. > > Especially since Arafat was dead by November 2004. By Feburary 2005, the two sides had announced a ceasefire after negotiations at Sharm el Shiekh. In June of 2005, direct high-level negotiations were again in progress between the PNA and the Israeli government. By 2006 Hamas was elected and declared that they rejected any and all peace agreements with Israel, would not renounce their genocidal ambitions and that despite any “hudna” and that they would not recognize Israel. Why the peace process again faltered in toto while Israel continued to talk with Abbas, is clear. That’s fine. People can look at my description of the facts and your description of the facts and decide which description they like best. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1090 "2010-06-08T00:52:06Z")
Perhaps the meek will inherit the earth, but not in this world. Reference was made to Hitler. That’s a good example. The world, especially the then pm of Britain (Adenauer), acceded to his every demand. By the time Hitler invaded Poland, it was almost too late. Or should the world just have let him take over Poland and pray that their country wouldn’t be next? Hamas, Hesbollah, Iran, and Syria, along with the Palestinians, threaten the existence of Israel. Egypt and many other Arab countries realize the danger: that if Israel today, perhaps my country tomorrow. That is why Egypt has agreed to the blockade. Privately, some other Arab countries are also rooting for Israel, but will never publicly acknowledge that. The Palestinians just don’t want a Jewish state, but other countries, especially Iran, have greater aims. WWI started “over some damn fool thing in the Balkans,” but WWII evolved into a world war because leaders of the world were weak and caved into Hitler’s demands. In fact, they were so weak that they did not stop him when he violated the terms of the peace treaty and started to build an armed force. That was the time to take him to task, but nobody dared. After Kruschev met President Kennedy, he thought Kennedy weak. He had the Berlin wall made. Nobody stopped him. He then was caught shipping nuclear power to Cuba, and Kennedy finally stood up. Weakness does not stop people from stepping on you. Only the show of strength does, and no matter how long it takes, it is better than the alternative. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1091 "2010-06-08T00:57:19Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > What other groups? > > Hamas was elected due to Fatah corruption, but I understand that the people are not happy with Hamas because they have confiscated their properties to erect military installations. > > As to the teenager shot five times at close range, I’d empty my gun, too, at somebody trying to stab me. > > HEAVY WEAPONS FOUND IN THE CARGO OF THE M/S. MAVI MARMARA FLOTILLA VESSEL. > This video shows that during the unloading of the Marmara boat in the port > of Ashdod, behind the bags of flour were boxes of heavy weapons and > ammunition: mortars, artillery shells, bazookas, without counting a trunk > where more than one million euros was found intended for Hamas. Clearly the Turkish AKP Islamist government is complicit in permitting this military cargo to be loaded on the ‘peaceful’ Free Gaza Flotilla. The French explains that the arms on display were hidden behind sacks of grain. > > Have patience with this video. First there is a commercial for Pantene! But > wait until it’s over. \<[http://www.flix.co.il/tapuz/showVideo.asp?m=3423928>](http://www.flix.co.il/tapuz/showVideo.asp?m=3423928>); > \<[http://www.flix.co.il/tapuz/showVideo.asp?m=3423928>](http://www.flix.co.il/tapuz/showVideo.asp?m=3423928>); > In addition to hiding weapons meant to kill Israel civilians, the > “humanitarian aid” workers viciously attacked Israeli soldiers. Below, a > first hand account from Amir, an Israeli soldier who was there. > > "Hello Uncle Erwin, > > This is Amir writing you after reading what you sent to my father, Eitan. As > you know, it was my unit and my friends who were on the ship. My commander > was injured badly as a result of the “pacifists” violence. I want to tell > you how he was injured so you could tell the story. it shows just how > horrible and inhuman were the activists. My commander was the first soldier > that rappelled down from the helicopter to the ship. When he touched ground, > he got hit in the head with a pole and stabbed in the stomach with a knife. > When he drew out his secondary weapon-a handgun (his primary weapon was a > regular paintball gun: “Tippman 98 custom”) he was shot in the leg. He > managed to fire a single shot before he was tossed from the balcony by 4 > Arab activists, to the lower deck (a 12 feet fall). He was then dragged by > other activists to a room in the lower deck were he was stripped down by 2 > activists. They took off his vest, helmet and shirt, leaving him with only > his pants and shoes on. When they finished they took a knife and expanded > the wound he already had in his stomach. They cut his ab muscles > horizontally and by hand spilled his guts out. When they finished they > raised him up and walked him on the deck outside. He was conscious the whole > time. If you are asking yourself why they did all that, here comes the > reason. They wanted to show the soldiers their commander’s body so they will > be demoralized and scared. Luckily, when they walked him on the deck a > soldier saw him and managed to shoot the activist that was walking him down > the outside corridor. He shot him with a special non-lethal bullet that > didn’t kill him. My commander managed to jump from the deck to the water and > swim to an army rescue boat (his guts still out of his body, and now in > salty sea water). That was how he was saved. The activists that did this to > him are alive, now in Turkey, and treated as heroes. > > I’m sorry if I described this with too many details, but I thought it was > necessary for the credibility. Please tell this story to anyone who will > listen. I think that these days you are one of Israel’s best spokesman. > > Thanks uncle Erwin, Shabbat shalom! > > Amir > > It appears that the Reuters news agency may have deliberately cropped the Hurriyet > photo so as to remove the knife that the “peace activist” was holding. > > If so, it wouldn’t be the first time Reuters had been caught altering photos > to make them less sympathetic to Israel. Reuters did so, for example, in the > 2006 Hizbullah-Israel war. > > See Reuters and AP photos from today here: > > \<[Did Reuters Crop a Photo to Remove a Peace Activist's Weapon? - Little Green Footballs](http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/36488_Did_Reuters_Crop_a_Photo_to_Remove_a_Peace_Activists_Weapon>); > > The Washington Post editorial: Groups like Islamic Jihad are firing rockets out of Gaza, although it’s just once in a blue moon. Hamas are actually trying to stop any rockets being fired. I don’t believe heavy weapons were found on the Turkish ship, it would have made massive international headlines if it had. You’d need to provide a link to a credible source for that one. And the Washington Post are hilarious. Turkey need to pay a price for the Turkish civilians that Israel killed. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1092 "2010-06-08T01:06:23Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > description of the facts Unfortunately, there’s only the facts and your claims about them. The fact is that you claimed that statements about not negotiating with Arafat were really statements about blocking any eventual Palestinian state. You had to cherrypick from your own cite in order to make this claim, and you were wrong. The fact is that you implied that by refusing to negotiate with one specific faction, and then not only accepting negotiations with other factions _but going on to engage in negotiations with them_, that Israel was really trying to prevent peace with any eventual Palestinian state. You were wrong. I can understand why, when caught in a mistake, it’s useful to claim that there are merely differing “descriptions” of the facts. Like claims that Israel supports Hamas in order to avoid negotiations for peace, as proven by the fact that Israel opposes Hamas and has spent more than a decade negotiating for peace. It’s just not very convincing. Just like Red offered a transcript that was obviously a forgery in several key respects, a differing “description” of the Guardian’s transcript won’t change facts there, either. You’re entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts. And at the point where you abandon the facts and instead cleave to claims of differing “descriptions”, it’s pretty clear that the facts no longer support your narrative. After all, if there was any Israeli official who really said what you claimed, you’d have cited them. The fact that you haven’t, and can’t, shows what the foundations of your claims are. And when that’s pointed out, the claim becomes one of differing descriptions. And that’s the point, after all. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1093 "2010-06-08T01:26:09Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > … the then pm of Britain (Adenauer)… Uh. Pretty sure it was Chambermaid. Remember the boomerang, famous symbol of appeasement? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1094 "2010-06-08T01:31:26Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Unfortunately, there’s only the facts and your claims about them. > > The fact is that you claimed that statements about not negotiating with Arafat were really statements about blocking any eventual Palestinian state. You had to cherrypick from your own cite in order to make this claim, and you were wrong. > > The fact is that you implied that by refusing to negotiate with one specific faction, and then not only accepting negotiations with other factions _but going on to engage in negotiations with them_, that Israel was really trying to prevent peace with any eventual Palestinian state. You were wrong. > > I can understand why, when caught in a mistake, it’s useful to claim that there are merely differing “descriptions” of the facts. Like claims that Israel supports Hamas in order to avoid negotiations for peace, as proven by the fact that Israel opposes Hamas and has spent more than a decade negotiating for peace. It’s just not very convincing. > Just like Red offered a transcript that was obviously a forgery in several key respects, a differing “description” of the Guardian’s transcript won’t change facts there, either. You’re entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts. And at the point where you abandon the facts and instead cleave to claims of differing “descriptions”, it’s pretty clear that the facts no longer support your narrative. > > After all, if there was any Israeli official who really said what you claimed, you’d have cited them. The fact that you haven’t, and can’t, shows what the foundations of your claims are. And when that’s pointed out, the claim becomes one of differing descriptions. > And that’s the point, after all. I’m not cherrypicking anything. Weinglass’s claims that there was “no intention” to freeze the peace process after his interview pointing out that freezing the process was the entire intention is about as credible as Helewn Thomas’s claims that she doesn’t mean the things she said that created the current controversy. Israel at the time were refusing to negotiate with Fatah because they said they wanted to negotiate with actual elected Palestinians, and members of the Palestinian parliament even though all the non-Fatah Palestinian parliamentary members were telling them stop using us as an excuse not to negotiate with Fatah. Then when the Palestinians elected a bunch of people they didn’t like they started negotiating with Fatah, or at east started talks about possible negotiations. But basically they’ve never had any intention of serious negotiations, like I already pointed out to you in previous threads they’ve never made a firm offer to the Palestinians, even at Camp David, and that’s according to Clinton officials who were part of the negotiations. If you want a cite for that go dig up the previous threads I posted it in. Even now Netanyahu refuses to endorse an actual Palestinian state, if he did his coalition would fall apart overnight. Anyway, that’s my version of the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1095 "2010-06-08T01:32:11Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Because your plan B is so much better right? A guy’s getting mugged-Stand there and take it! A woman is being raped-suck it up! A soldier is being shot at-don’t you DARE shoot back! You must have me confused with someone else because I don’t think I ever said that (Finn’s allegation that I don’t think Israel has the right to defend itself to the contrary). I think there may be some daylight between bending over, spreading your ass-cheeks and buttering up on the one hand and what Israel is doing on the other hand. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1096 "2010-06-08T01:46:25Z")
Pretty sure he was talking to me, that “Plan B” stuff is the giveaway. A hard headed realist. We are blessed that we have so very, very many. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1097 "2010-06-08T01:55:24Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > HEAVY WEAPONS FOUND IN THE CARGO OF THE M/S. MAVI MARMARA FLOTILLA VESSEL. > This video shows that during the unloading of the Marmara boat in the port > of Ashdod, behind the bags of flour were boxes of heavy weapons and > ammunition: mortars, artillery shells, bazookas, without counting a trunk > where more than one million euros was found intended for Hamas. Clearly the Turkish AKP Islamist government is complicit in permitting this military cargo to be loaded on the ‘peaceful’ Free Gaza Flotilla. The French explains that the arms on display were hidden behind sacks of grain. > > Have patience with this video. First there is a commercial for Pantene! But > wait until it’s over. \<[http://www.flix.co.il/tapuz/showVideo.asp?m=3423928>](http://www.flix.co.il/tapuz/showVideo.asp?m=3423928>); > \<[http://www.flix.co.il/tapuz/showVideo.asp?m=3423928>](http://www.flix.co.il/tapuz/showVideo.asp?m=3423928>); Turns out this is not from the Maru, its from a boat called the Francop that the IDF intercepted back in November 2009. Why do people feel the need to just make shit up to justify what was obviously a bad mistake? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1098 "2010-06-08T02:06:19Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > IDF admits it ‘doctored’ video. > > This is the one Mark Regev said on various interviews here showed the Marmara terrorists shouting anti Israel slogans and even went as far as telling the viewers to go and watch it. > > Clearly lying until they could sustain the deception no longer. > > Sickening! > > [http://maxblumenthal.com/2010/06/idf-admits-it-doctored-flotilla-audio-clip-washington-posts-kessler-must-retract/](http://maxblumenthal.com/2010/06/idf-admits-it-doctored-flotilla-audio-clip-washington-posts-kessler-must-retract/) Its audio and there is no confirmation that the audio came from any of the boats from the flotilla. Wasn’t there recently a case where some ship picked up communication that was being transmitted from aboard their own ship? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1099 "2010-06-08T02:16:20Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > they’ve never made a firm offer to the Palestinians, even at Camp David I know, you’ve been mistaken on that point and, IIRC, when shown that the facts didn’t support you the “well, I’ll just describe the facts differently then” meme was deployed. The offer at CD was not only “firm” but Clinton has maintained that Arafat’s refusal was idiocy and the Saudi position was that it wasn’t just a shame to reject CD, it was a crime. So on one side we have Clinton, Ross and Bandar, all agreeing on what the substance of the deal was and that it was not only “solid”, but a deal that would have ended the violence and given us two viable states about a decade ago. You are simply wrong on the facts. > [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > I’m not cherrypicking anything. Of course you are. To start with, in order to make your claim and you’ve distorted the excerpts you did cite, such as how negotiations were ‘indefinitely’ off the table until the nature of the PNA changed, which you represented as it being a plan to block any “eventual” Palestinian state. As already quoted from your cite, you also avoided followup comments about how it was only Arafat that they weren’t dealing with and that they were open to negotiations with the PNA once it no longer had the same character. Contrary to your claims, those were the exact substance of the original interview. [ > [@](#): > > The formaldehyde formula > > Is that what you really think - and Sharon, too - that there is no one to talk to? > > “We reached that conclusion after years of thinking otherwise. After years of attempts at dialogue. But when Arafat undermined Abu Mazen at the end of the summer of 2003, we reached the sad conclusion that there is no one to talk to, no one to negotiate with. Hence the disengagement plan. Because when you’re playing solitaire, when there is no one sitting across from you at the table, you have no choice but to deal the cards yourself.” > […] > What was your main concern in those months, what was the main factor that pushed you to the disengagement idea? > > “The concern was the fact that President Bush’s formula was stuck and this would lead to its ruin. That the international community would say: You wanted the president’s formula and you got it; you wanted to try Abu Mazen and you tried. It didn’t work. And when a formula doesn’t work in reality, you don’t change reality, you change the formula. Therefore, Arik’s realistic viewpoint said that it was possible that the principle that was our historic policy achievement would be annulled - the principle that eradication of terrorism precedes a political process. And with the annulment of that principle, Israel would find itself negotiating with terrorism. And because once such negotiations start it’s very difficult to stop them, the result would be a Palestinian state with terrorism. And all this within quite a short time. Not decades or even years, but a few months.” > > I still don’t see how the disengagement plan helps here. What was the major importance of the plan from your point of view? > > “The disengagement plan is the preservative of the sequence principle. It is the bottle of formaldehyde within which you place the president’s formula so that it will be preserved for a very lengthy period. The disengagement is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that’s necessary so that there will not be a political process with the Palestinians.” ]([http://www1.jmcc.org/Documentsandmaps.aspx?id=698](http://www1.jmcc.org/Documentsandmaps.aspx?id=698)) The facts show that you are casting a cessation of the peace process and its _preservation in a frozen state until the PNA was different_ as a ploy to do away with any potential Palestinian state. > [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Israel at the time were refusing to negotiate with Fatah because No. They were refusing to negotiate with Fatah because Arafat took the offer at Camp David and responded by starting a war. > [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Then when the Palestinians elected a bunch of people they didn’t like they started negotiating with Fatah That’s really your argument? It was people who they just “didn’t like”. Like Suzy won’t go with me to the sock hop because she doesn’t like that I was dungarees instead of corduroy? Again, you are not entitled to your own facts, and if your narrative cannot stand on the facts, it, perforce, _falls_. The actual reason was because Hamas explicitly repudiated all previous peace agreements, said they would never recognize Israel, supports terrorism targeted at civilians and are racists who support genocide. > [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Even now Netanyahu refuses to endorse an actual Palestinian state [ > [@](#): > > JERUSALEM — The prime minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, on Sunday endorsed for the first time the principle of a Palestinian state alongside Israel, but on condition that the state was demilitarized and that the Palestinians recognized Israel as the state of the Jewish people. ]([http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/15/world/middleeast/15mideast.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/15/world/middleeast/15mideast.html)) Yet again, you are entitled to your own opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1100 "2010-06-08T02:26:50Z")
A lot of mischief could be contained in that single innocent word “demilitarized”. Do they mean “free of military materiel such as chamomile and coriander”? Does it mean “free and independent so long as we can kick your ass forever?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=54) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=56)