# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 57
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1121 "2010-06-08T19:40:25Z")
I have a long comment to add, but not the time at present to finish it, but let me add that the leading challenger to the AKP is a Kurd, leading the conservative (and traditionally pro Israel) party. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1122 "2010-06-08T19:48:51Z")
From: imra@netvision.net.il To: imra@imra.org.il Subject: Hamas refuses to allow flotilla aid into Gaza Strip Expired medicine from flotilla aid 6 Jun 2010 Hamas continues to prevent the transfer of the humanitarian aid which has been unloaded at the Kerem Shalom security crossing. Expired medicine from flotilla aid (Photo: IDF Spokesperson) www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/5D3EA7A8-770F-4508-8E8A-543B32A66B0F/0/flotillamedicine.jpg (Communicated by the IDF Spokesperson and CoGAT) As of 2 June (18:30), the State of Israel has loaded 20 trucks with various types of aid found onboard the flotilla. Expired medication, clothing, blankets, some medical equipment and toys were among the aid found on the ships. Unfortunately, the Hamas terror organization is unwilling to accept the cargo and the trucks filled with humanitarian aid have not been allowed to enter the Gaza Strip. It appears that Hamas is in fact stopping the transfer of the humanitarian aid. Update (3 June, 22:30): The humanitarian aid cargo of the Gaza flotilla continues being transferred to the Gaza Strip. So far, 30 trucks have been loaded with clothing, blankets, school bags, mattresses, baby safety seats, cupboards, and medical equipment such as motorized carts, wheel chairs, x-ray glasses, bandages, hospital beds and medications, as well as other goods. Some of the medication brought by the flotilla has passed its expiration date by more than a year. Also found on the ships was fabric in camouflage colors, apparently meant for Hamas terror operatives. Hamas continues to prevent the transfer of the humanitarian aid which has been unloaded at the Kerem Shalom security crossing. The Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT) will continue to work closely with international bodies and the Palestinian Authority in order to organize the transfer of the goods into the Gaza Strip. During the week of 30 May - 5 June 2010, 484 truckloads (12,413 tons) of aid were transferred from Israel to the Gaza Strip via the land crossings. The commodities included: cooking oil, milk powder, baby food, rice, legumes, wheat, fresh fruits and vegetables, meat, chicken and fish products, flour, dairy products, animal feed, salt, sugar, hygiene products, medicine and medical equipment, cement, iron, clothing and footwear. Also transferred in the course of the week were 994,026 liters of heavy-duty diesel for the power station, 748 tons of cooking gas, 44,500 liters of gasoline, and 43,000 liters of heavy-duty diesel fuel for transportation. 192 international organization staff members entered Israel and 213 entered the Gaza Strip via the Erez Crossing. 373 patients and accompanying individuals crossed from the Gaza Strip into Israel and the West Bank. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1123 "2010-06-08T20:25:47Z")
> **[Why I Defend Israel](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-gaza-an-end-to-the_b_602850)** > > The flood of hypocrisy that seems to have waited for this pretext to sweep across the media of the world, as is the case every time the Jewish State slips up, is by no means acceptable. > [@](#): > > In other words, now that the Israelis have carried out their inspection and mean to take the cargo of aid to those for whom it is supposedly intended, Hamas’ attitude in blocking that aid at Kerem Shalom checkpoint, allowing it to slowly rot, is met with silence, > > Disinformers, finally, the batallions of Tartuffes who regret that Israel declines the demands for an international inquiry when the truth is, once again, so much simpler and more logical: What Israel refuses is an inquiry requested by a Council of Human Rights of the United Nations, where those great democrats, the Cubans, Pakistanis, and other Iranians reign. What Israel does not want is a procedure of the kind that resulted in the famous Goldstone report commissioned, after the war in Gaza, by the same sympathetic Commission whose five judges, four of whom had never made a secret of their militant anti-Zionism, wrapped up 575 pages of interviews of Palestinian fighters and civilians conducted (an absolute and unprecedented heresy in this kind of work) under the watchful eye of Hamas political commissioners in a matter of mere days. What Israel could not stand for is the masquerade of international justice such a botched inquiry – whose conclusions would be known in advance and would only serve to haul, as usual and perfectly unilaterally, the sole and unique democracy of the region into the defendants’ dock – would be. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1124 "2010-06-08T20:29:04Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > It appears that Hamas is in fact stopping the transfer > of the humanitarian aid. That’s _after_ the Israelis in fact stopped transfer of the humanitarian aid? Seems to me the humanitarian aid was _already_ stopped, and the terrorist organization Hamas doesn’t want Israel taking any credit for completing a humanitarian transaction that the country had no part of in the first place. Are the batteries back in the wheelchairs now? Has Israel made any other modifications to the gear? ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1125 "2010-06-08T20:36:31Z")
Credit Schmedit. Israel wanted to inspect the cargo to ensure that it consisted only of humanitarian aid, and BTW, camoflauge clothing was found. [Subscribe to read](http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/681fae96-7195-11df-8eec-00144feabdc0.html) > [@](#): > > Next to Iran, Nato member Turkey is now the biggest headache for the west. With Egypt sinking into torpor and Riyadh firmly ensconced on the fence between Washington and Tehran, Turkey has seen the leadership of the region up for grabs – and is going for it. It has drawn Syria into its orbit and has reached a nuclear deal with Iran, its rival for hegemony. > > What better way to pursue this end than to lead a crusade against the Jewish state? Going after the “Little Satan” is the card that trumps them all, and it embarrasses the “Great Satan” to boot. The real game is about dominance at the expense of America, which US President Barack Obama has yet to grasp. Neither has Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel’s prime minister. Sailing into the Turkish trap was a blunder worthy of General Custer at Little Big Horn. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1126 "2010-06-08T22:55:05Z")
Clearly the camouflaged clothing was meant to be used to hide from the horrible humanitarian crisis that is storming Gaza. :rolleyes: Oh, and since some of you guys are so against Gaza being demilitarized since it puts Gaza at Israel’s mercy: Gaza was at Israel’s mercy since Egypt refused to take it back together with Sinai, so nothing new there. And Israel doesn’t trust the Gazian government with having an army. Are you really saying Israel should trust Gaza? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1127 "2010-06-08T23:11:35Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I hope you are not serious. I hope in the next post you make, you say “I wasn’t serious about this pondering at all.” > > In case you are, here are the responses to this easily refutable theory: > > 1. Erdogan’s focus on Gaza pre-dated any perceived breakdown in peace with the PKK. The other way to look at it is that there is been an extended cancellation of a cease fire that ended roughly in 2004, when our invasion of Iraq freed up the PKK to come and screw with Turkey - so there has been trouble with the PKK both before, during, and probably after world attention is focused on Gaza. > 2. The AKP’s focus has been to increase the representation and democratic privileges of the Kurdish minority to get in line with EU requirements. This focus can be attested to in your article and in the most recent issue of _Smithsonian_. > 3. World focus has always been more on the Palestinians than Kurds. At least since I can remember. None of your points “refute” anything. The issue is about timing. > [@](#): > > and finally, this can’t be serious at all. Kurds have freedom of movement throughout their country, they can actually vote for a government that is affecting their day-to-day lives, they aren’t fucking occupied, they can engage in trade, have access to education and pretty much any service available to any other Turk, they don’t live in an open air prison, they aren’t subject to sanctions when they democratically elect a government, and the party running the government favors their equalization like none other since the Turkish Republic was founded. So no, it’s not more serious in any way you look at it. Firstly, you may not have noticed, but Gaza has not been “fucking occupied” for years. Secondly, since many Kurds most definitely feel differently about the alleged freedoms they enjoy in Turkey, and since they make up something like 20% of the population of that country, and are plentifully represented elsewhere in the ME, their sense of unhappiness has potentially serious consequences. > **[Human rights of Kurdish people in Turkey](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_of_Kurdish_people_in_Turkey)** > > Kurds have had a long history of discrimination perpetrated against them by the Turkish government. Massacres have periodically occurred against the Kurds since the establishment of the Republic of Turkey in 1923. Among the most significant is the massacre that happened during the Dersim massacre, when 13,000–70,000 civilians were killed by the Turkish Army and 11,818 people were sent into exile. According to McDowall, 40,000 people were killed. The Zilan massacre of 1930 was a massacre\[ The use ... In contrast, Gazan unhappiness has basically no consequences, except and to the extent that they can get other folks to care about it - which admittedly they can. Hence, the speculation that Turkey is using the opportunuty presented to divert attention from their problems, to a foreign problem. [http://www.kurdishaspect.com/doc060910AN.html](http://www.kurdishaspect.com/doc060910AN.html) ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1128 "2010-06-08T23:28:34Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Dennis Ross. Bill Clinton. Prince Bandar. All there. All said an offer was made. You quibble because offers were shifting (it’s like… \*negotiation \*was going on or something!) and Final Status issues weren’t addressed before Final Status talks. Go figure. > > Rather obviously I’ve never said any such thing. I have pointed out and proven that you’re ignoring all the facts that aren’t useful to your position and that he was only talking about Arafat and only a temporary freeze until the PNA was reformed and was a worthy negotiating partner. > Rather unsurprisingly when you’re shown to be wrong on the facts, we see “we’ll I’ll just describe the facts differently and people can make up their own minds.” > > I notice that you have no actual counter to the facts, so you have to call them “Israeli propaganda”. Their position was that they would negotiate with someone who was negotiating in good faith. This was proven not to be Arafat and they began negotiations with the new Fatah once he was gone. > > Likewise, as the facts don’t help your narrative, you claim that Israeli wasn’t negotiating with Fatah after Arafat but before Hamas was elected. I’ve already pointed out that your claims are false, but you’ve repeated them. > > And again you have discarded the facts that are inconvenient to your narrative. He’d back a Palestinian state that’s demilitarized. Pointing out that he won’t give Hamas open borders and the ability to import weaponry is hardly inconsistent with that. To say nothing of the fact that the West Bank and Gaza are not the same place. > > Need some new memes. There was never an offer of “bantustans”, and it’s now interesting to see how your rhetoric has twisted the process of negotiations. If the Palestinians aren’t granted some of Jersualem (as per their demands) then, why, any offer can’t be serious. You’ve now defined away any and all offers that you don’t like as “not serious”. > > Curiouser and curiouser, Lok, I’m happy to put my facts up against your facts regarding Camp David, Weinglass etc. and people reading can decide for themselves which of us is right or wrong. Even Netanyahu making an offer of a state. He has made a statement a year ago where he accepted that the Palestinians could have a state but on terms he knows would never be acceptable to Palestinians (no shared Jeruslaem etc.) but this was done when Obama had taken office and was pushing immediately for a resumption of talks. It was just a meaningless platitude to make it look like Israel was willing to make peace. After all, in the same speech he vowed to stop building new settlements or expand existing ones, so it was just a speech to make Israel sound agreeable to the new American administration. > **[Netanyahu backs demilitarized Palestinian state](https://www.haaretz.com/2009-06-14/ty-article/netanyahu-backs-demilitarized-palestinian-state/0000017f-f577-d5bd-a17f-f77f4e910000)** > > In Highly Anticipated Policy Speech, PM Calls for Peace Talks, Says Israel Won't Build New Settlements. In practice if he’d kept his word his coalition, made up of right, far right and settler parties would have fallen apart immediately. So Netanyahu managed at one point to say something that aallowed him to look moderate and agreeable to negotiations and in years to come you’ll be googling up the “Netanyahu makes state offer” linky and using it to claim people are wrong on their facts. But the bottom line is it’s impossible for netanyahu to make any kind of serious offer like that. His coalition would collapse overnight. His current position is that he won’t endorse any kind of Palestinian state at all and that’s not going to change because otherwise he won’t have a government any longer. Once again, from a few days ago : Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu will refuse on his trip to Washington to back the formation of a Palestinian state, an MP close to the premier said on Saturday, according to national radio. Netanyahu “will not make a commitment to Washington on the creation of a Palestinian state which would undoubtedly become a ‘Hamastan’,” Ophir Akunis from Netanyahu’s right-wing Likud party was quoted as saying, referring to the Islamic movement Hamas which controls the Gaza Strip and favours armed struggle against Israel… Obama also wants the new Israeli government to halt new building work in Jewish settlements on the occupied West Bank but Netanyahu has said he wants to expand existing settlements. > **[Breitbart News Network](https://www.breitbart.com/)** > > Syndicated news and opinion website providing continuously updated headlines to top news and analysis sources. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1129 "2010-06-09T00:03:51Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > …And Israel doesn’t trust the Gazian government with having an army. Are you really saying Israel should trust Gaza? Sooner or later, yes. You will have to. And so will they. Because you’re sitting with knives drawn, smoking cigars in the powder magazine. And sooner or later, somebody is going to fuck up. And that’s the real threat, a few acres of the Godforsaken Desert doesn’t mean shit to a tree. The problem is keeping the war freaks from doing what they do best. Or worse, have a peace loving man start the shit by accident. The path of peace is not the path of rainbows and unicorns, it is the path of survival. Judge every action, every utterance by that metric: does it advance the cause of peace, or no? Offering Soveriegnty Lite, so long as its ok with Israel and reserving the right to kick their butts if she feels like it? You gotta be kidding, thats something you offer to a whipped dog. Or a man you want should feel like a whipped dog. As a peace gesture, it leaves a lot to be desired. And, hell, if the Irish can do it, why can’t the Israelis and the Palestinians manage it? What are they, smarter? ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1130 "2010-06-09T00:17:27Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > None of your points “refute” anything. The issue is about timing. I specifically made two points that showed there is no relationship between Kurds and Gazans in Erdogan’s or the AKP’s behavior. You need a relationship at all to have a causal relationship, and for there to be cause and effect you need event A to proceed event B. Erdogan’s noise about Gaza preceded both the initiation of greater freedoms for Kurds and the current problems with that initiative. Problems with Kurds started nearly at the beginning of AKP’s dominance in parliament and continues to this day. I do agree that Erdogan is utilizing the flotilla to achieve his own ends but they are related to Turkish influence in the Middle East and independence of the USA and Europe. Gaza-related goals do not include distracting from the Kurds. > [@Malthus](#): > > Firstly, you may not have noticed, but Gaza has not been “fucking occupied” for years. You’re right I let my personal views get in the way of specific definitions. I view them as occupied because they are blockaded and the IDF can basically do whatever the hell it wants there, but technically they are not occupied. > [@Malthus](#): > > Secondly, since many Kurds most definitely feel differently about the alleged freedoms they enjoy in Turkey, and since they make up something like 20% of the population of that country, and are plentifully represented elsewhere in the ME, their sense of unhappiness has potentially serious consequences. Your wording in your post said to me that you thought the Kurdish plight, their suffering, is worse than that of the Gazans. I see what you meant now, but I continue to disagree. Turkish Kurds are getting some of the things they want and losing interest in the PKK. Hopefully the overall trend continues. It will not be a threat to regional stability. In addition, the Iraqi Kurds are more free, have diplomatic and economic ties with Turkey that are independent of the central Iraqi government, and Barzani recently spoke out specifically against PKK terrorism while on a diplomatic visit to Turkey. The Turkish government seems to have learned a bit from the violence; they’re sucking it up and giving the Kurds what they want in exchange for peace. It’s not instantaneous but it is moving forward. Still the Kurdish sense of unhappiness has serious consequences everyday. > [@Malthus](#): > > In contrast, Gazan unhappiness has basically no consequences, except and to the extent that they can get other folks to care about it - which admittedly they can. > > Hence, the speculation that Turkey is using the opportunuty presented to divert attention from their problems, to a foreign problem. > > [http://www.kurdishaspect.com/doc060910AN.html](http://www.kurdishaspect.com/doc060910AN.html) I can’t take this particular link seriously since it is filled with incorrect facts. A major one deals specifically with the banning of the DTP. It was banned by the Constituational Court and not the AKP or any wing of the AKP government. In fact, prior to the banning of the DTP, AKP itself was threatened by the same court. In addition, the AKP introduced consitutional reforms that would have protected parties like DTP from easily being banned, but it didn’t make it in. Like Kurdish unhappiness, Gazan unhappiness has severe consequences even if nobody cared. I imagine Israelis don’t want to be bombed, or shot at, or mortared, or rocketed, or without good reliable labor, or being asked to do violence against the people attacking them. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1131 "2010-06-09T16:40:53Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I’m suggesting that (Israel) offer the hand of peace, have it slapped aside, and offer it again. I’m suggesting that you take a blow, and do not return it… [QUOTE=elucidator] But really, gentlemen: proposing terms that the other guy cannot possibly accept without throwing himself entirely upon your tender mercies? This is your idea of a “peace offering”? [/QUOTE] :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1132 "2010-06-09T16:53:27Z")
Oh, of course, silly me! As soon as Israel allows the importation of weapons grade coriander, she will be at the mercy of her enemies! And how can she protect herself from fanatics hopped up on instant coffee, with only a few meager armored divisions and an air force! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1133 "2010-06-09T16:57:32Z")
> **[HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News](https://www.huffpost.com/?err_code=404&err_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%2F2010%2F06%2F09%2Fgaza-blockade-israel-ease_n_605592.html)** > > Read the latest headlines, news stories, and opinion from Politics, Entertainment, Life, Perspectives, and more. Wait, hold everything! According to _Huff Post_, Israel is now willing to allow the importation of Doritos! A magnanimous gesture sure to melt the hearts of her most hardened enemy! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1134 "2010-06-09T17:18:35Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > :dubious: How shocking… elucidator’s own views on his “peace” plan (that involves potentially never-ending attacks on Israel that Israel won’t ever respond to) is at odds with what he himself considers to be a reasonable peace plan. But when that’s pointed out, we have a nice joke about how Hamas would import coriander and that’s the real issue, not those missiles and such. Obviously his position is the very height of a solid argument that firmly addresses the issues and deals with its shortcomings in a clear and unambiguous manner. > [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Lok Yet again a claim of “special facts”. I wish it was surprising by this point. You were shown to be ignoring the actual comments about what freezing the peace process was about and what its context was, so you could fit it in with your fictional narrative about how Israel wanted no peace at all even with an eventual Palestinian state. Of course, you were quickly shown that it was actually about how Arafat was not a trustworthy negotiating partner and Israel was freezing rather than permanently aborting the peace process So you were simply wrong, on the facts, on your interpretation, and tellingly, on what you had to ignore in order to make your claims. Rather than admit your mistake you’ve simply insisted that the actual facts don’t matter, and you’re free to describe them differently, or ignore those you don’t want, and by gum folks will just choose whether they like the facts or your story. Just like your claims that Israel was supporting Hamas while they were bombing Hamas, or that Israel was using Hamas as a pretext not to negotiate with the PNA while Israel was negotiating with the PNA. Or that Israel wasn’t really saying they wouldn’t negotiate with terrorists and would negotiate with another faction, proven by the fact that Israel was saying it wouldn’t negotiate with terrorists and did negotiate with another faction. \*In all of those cases you claim “special facts” or “superior interpretation”, or what have you. But of course you’re simply wrong and the facts don’t fit into your story, so they’re discarded. \* Like how, faced with the facts of Camp David as confirmed by Clinton, the chief negotiator and the Saudi ambassador, you claim that you have “other facts”. And yet those other facts \*still \*show that there were offers made and negotiations in progress, but again since that doesn’t fit into your narrative you claim that if they weren’t written down and they didn’t engage in Final Status talks ahead of schedule, then they don’t count. Now you provide two more cites that both shows you’re wrong and your narrative is fictional. The first reiterates his commitment to a Palestinian state that’s demilitarized, and the second is just your cherrypicked distortion whereby opposition to Hamas gaining autonomy in Gaza is opposition to any possible Palestinian state. Yet again, you are entitled to your own opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts, and you are certainly not entitled to disregard any facts that are inconvenient to your narrative. When a statement about not dealing with Arafat and temporarily freezing the peace process until the PNA is reformed morphs into a claim about how Israel was opposing any eventual Palestinian state, it’s pretty clear that your argument no longer has anything to do with the actual facts. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1135 "2010-06-09T17:35:18Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > …Hamas would import coriander and that’s the real issue, not those missiles and such… There were missiles on that boat? Missed that. Advise. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1136 "2010-06-09T17:48:26Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Interestingly enough, Turkey’s fragile peace with the Kurds is breaking down, even as Turkey heats up the rhetoric on the flotilla. > > Cite: [http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/turkey-locks-horns-with-kurds-again/article1595640/](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/turkey-locks-horns-with-kurds-again/article1595640/) > > One wonders if there is a connection. The BBC has obtained evidence that Israelis have been giving military training to Kurds in northern Iraq. A report on the BBC TV programme Newsnight showed Israeli experts in northern Iraq, drilling Kurdish militias in shooting techniques. … [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/glTN6tNzz1g/hqdefault.jpg "Israel Training PKK") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glTN6tNzz1g) Ever since the US-led invasion of Iraq began over three years ago, Arab journalists have been speaking of Israelis operating inside the autonomous region of Kurdistan. They said this was evidence that toppling Saddam Hussein was only the first chapter in a wider American-Israeli conspiracy to eliminate threats to their strategic interests and re-draw the map of the Middle East. Syria and Iran, which have common borders with Kurdish areas, are believed to be the primary target. > **[BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israelis 'train Kurdish forces'](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5364982.stm)** > > The BBC obtains evidence that Israelis have been giving military training to Kurds in northern Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1137 "2010-06-09T17:48:40Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > How shocking… elucidator’s own views on his “peace” plan (that involves potentially never-ending attacks on Israel that Israel won’t ever respond to) is at odds with what he himself considers to be a reasonable peace plan. But when that’s pointed out, we have a nice joke about how Hamas would import coriander and that’s the real issue, not those missiles and such. Obviously his position is the very height of a solid argument that firmly addresses the issues and deals with its shortcomings in a clear and unambiguous manner. > > Yet again a claim of “special facts”. I wish it was surprising by this point. > You were shown to be ignoring the actual comments about what freezing the peace process was about and what its context was, so you could fit it in with your fictional narrative about how Israel wanted no peace at all even with an eventual Palestinian state. Of course, you were quickly shown that it was actually about how Arafat was not a trustworthy negotiating partner and Israel was freezing rather than permanently aborting the peace process So you were simply wrong, on the facts, on your interpretation, and tellingly, on what you had to ignore in order to make your claims. Rather than admit your mistake you’ve simply insisted that the actual facts don’t matter, and you’re free to describe them differently, or ignore those you don’t want, and by gum folks will just choose whether they like the facts or your story. > > Just like your claims that Israel was supporting Hamas while they were bombing Hamas, or that Israel was using Hamas as a pretext not to negotiate with the PNA while Israel was negotiating with the PNA. Or that Israel wasn’t really saying they wouldn’t negotiate with terrorists and would negotiate with another faction, proven by the fact that Israel was saying it wouldn’t negotiate with terrorists and did negotiate with another faction. \*In all of those cases you claim “special facts” or “superior interpretation”, or what have you. But of course you’re simply wrong and the facts don’t fit into your story, so they’re discarded. > \* > Like how, faced with the facts of Camp David as confirmed by Clinton, the chief negotiator and the Saudi ambassador, you claim that you have “other facts”. And yet those other facts \*still \*show that there were offers made and negotiations in progress, but again since that doesn’t fit into your narrative you claim that if they weren’t written down and they didn’t engage in Final Status talks ahead of schedule, then they don’t count. > Now you provide two more cites that both shows you’re wrong and your narrative is fictional. The first reiterates his commitment to a Palestinian state that’s demilitarized, and the second is just your cherrypicked distortion whereby opposition to Hamas gaining autonomy in Gaza is opposition to any possible Palestinian state. > > Yet again, you are entitled to your own opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts, and you are certainly not entitled to disregard any facts that are inconvenient to your narrative. When a statement about not dealing with Arafat and temporarily freezing the peace process until the PNA is reformed morphs into a claim about how Israel was opposing any eventual Palestinian state, it’s pretty clear that your argument no longer has anything to do with the actual facts. Yeah, people can compare my facts and your facts and see which ones they like best. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1138 "2010-06-09T18:06:17Z")
Come to think of it, we have a number of sovereign, demilitarized zones here in America. We call them “reservations”. Perhaps we could give the Gazans a tour, show them the happy fate that awaits a defeated people who can rely on the generosity of their betters. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1139 "2010-06-09T18:09:49Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > From: imra@netvision.net.il > To: imra@imra.org.il > Subject: Hamas refuses to allow flotilla aid into Gaza Strip > Expired medicine from flotilla aid > > 6 Jun 2010 > Hamas continues to prevent the transfer of the humanitarian aid which has > been unloaded at the Kerem Shalom security crossing. > > Expired medicine from flotilla aid (Photo: IDF Spokesperson) > www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/5D3EA7A8-770F-4508-8E8A-543B32A66B0F/0/flotillamedicine.jpg > (Communicated by the IDF Spokesperson and CoGAT) > > As of 2 June (18:30), the State of Israel has loaded 20 trucks with various > types of aid found onboard the flotilla. Expired medication, clothing, > blankets, some medical equipment and toys were among the aid found on the > ships. > > Unfortunately, the Hamas terror organization is unwilling to accept the > cargo and the trucks filled with humanitarian aid have not been allowed to > enter the Gaza Strip. It appears that Hamas is in fact stopping the transfer > of the humanitarian aid. > > Update (3 June, 22:30): The humanitarian aid cargo of the Gaza flotilla > continues being transferred to the Gaza Strip. So far, 30 trucks have been > loaded with clothing, blankets, school bags, mattresses, baby safety seats, > cupboards, and medical equipment such as motorized carts, wheel chairs, > x-ray glasses, bandages, hospital beds and medications, as well as other > goods. > > Some of the medication brought by the flotilla has passed its expiration > date by more than a year. Also found on the ships was fabric in camouflage > colors, apparently meant for Hamas terror operatives. > > Hamas continues to prevent the transfer of the humanitarian aid which has > been unloaded at the Kerem Shalom security crossing. The Coordinator of > Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT) will continue to work > closely with international bodies and the Palestinian Authority in order to > organize the transfer of the goods into the Gaza Strip. > > During the week of 30 May - 5 June 2010, 484 truckloads (12,413 tons) of aid > were transferred from Israel to the Gaza Strip via the land crossings. > > The commodities included: cooking oil, milk powder, baby food, rice, > legumes, wheat, fresh fruits and vegetables, meat, chicken and fish > products, flour, dairy products, animal feed, salt, sugar, hygiene products, > medicine and medical equipment, cement, iron, clothing and footwear. > > Also transferred in the course of the week were 994,026 liters of heavy-duty > diesel for the power station, 748 tons of cooking gas, 44,500 liters of > gasoline, and 43,000 liters of heavy-duty diesel fuel for transportation. > > 192 international organization staff members entered Israel and 213 entered > the Gaza Strip via the Erez Crossing. > > 373 patients and accompanying individuals crossed from the Gaza Strip into > Israel and the West Bank. People here seriously need to watch a bit of this regions TV to get a more accurate picture, and watch Hamas actually speak on TV instead of listening to Mark Regev and Co. :rolleyes: Let me just correct this IDF propaganda which is about 3 days old. This was shown on TV here. About 3 different Hamas spokespersons have talked about it. The Jordanian trucks of aid which arrived at Rafah yesterday went through to Gaza no problem by Hamas. It was all handed to the relevant NGO’s. The IHH cargo on the flotilla has not been accepted by Hamas because they have stated that it has to go to the correct NGO’s responsible for ordering it to be distributed. These NGO’s have the documentation and all the lists of the cargo. It was to be delivered into their hands as they had requested the items and were waiting to accept them. Hamas has said on TV here on camera in answer to these allegations that they are very happy to accept any donations but they must be delivered to the relevant NGO’s because they have to make sure nothing is stolen, or not delivered, or more likely the Israeli government will accuse Hamas of taking construction materials. Israel however has refused to hand over the cargo to the relevant charities whose names appear on the lists. This is why the Flotilla cargo is still in Israel. Hamas is letting every aid convoy through Rafah straight to its relevant charity and NGO. Problem is the Israeli side who refuses to hand it over to the NGO’s. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1140 "2010-06-09T18:25:27Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > How interesting. You demand that Israel " offer the hand of peace, have it slapped aside, and offer it again." (somehow missing that Israel has done that numerous times and yet your argument remains the same) and you demand that Israel soak up an evidently infinite number of attacks in the service of “peace”… but endorsing a two state solution with demilitarization as a prerequisite is something you can’t stomach. What’s the point of being a country if you don’t have a military? How would you protect yourself against invaders? Are police allowed? My solution to the Middle East “crisis” is the same as yesterday: just merge Israel, Gaza, and what’s left of Palestine into one country. It’s easy. The U.S did it, the Canadians did it, and yes, even the Europeans are doing it with their EuroZone thingamajig. It’s silly to break these countries a part into “haves” and “have-nots” when you can just bring all of the countries under one banner and one flag. - Honesty [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=56) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=58)