# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 58
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1141 "2010-06-09T19:31:08Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > a more accurate picture, The accurate picture has already been described. True, it wasn’t on Iran’s state-run Press TV as you’ve cited before, but it’s accurate. It may be satisfying to claim it isn’t true, but it is. And it was based on nothing like “making sure the supplies got where they were going” but Hamas’ desire to play politics and delay the supposedly absolutely necessary supplies until their political point was made. [ > [@](#): > > The de facto Hamas government in Gaza has refused to accept truckloads of aid offloaded from the flotilla raided by Israeli forces earlier this week. > > According to officials in Gaza, Hamas has said it will not permit the supplies to enter the besieged territory until all detained activists are released and Israel agrees to deliver all aid consignments, including construction materials. ]([Hamas refuses flotilla aid delivered by Israel | Hamas | The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/03/hamas-flotilla-aid-israel)) [ > [@](#): > > Palestinian sources confirmed that trucks that arrived from Israel at the Rafah terminal at the Israel-Gaza border were barred from delivering the aid. > > Ra’ed Fatooh, in charge of the crossings, and Jamal Khudari, head of a committee against the Gaza blockade, said Israel must release all flotilla detainees and that it will be accepted in the territory only by the Free Gaza Movement people who organized the flotilla. > > Israel said it had 20 trucks of aid found on the ships, such as expired medications, clothing, blankets, some medical equipment and toys. > > Israel has released all foreign flotilla detainees by Wednesday, but four Israeli Arabs remain in custody. ]([IDF: Hamas stops flotilla aid delivered by Israel - CNN.com](http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/02/israel.palestinians.aid/index.html)) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1142 "2010-06-09T19:43:51Z")
So, Hamas is being stupidly belligerent and hostile? Well, yes, no surprise there. Unless you want us to pretend that a commando raid that costs nine innocent lives is somehow a reasonable effort that furthers the cause of peace, you’re on solid ground. I’m not a friend of Hamas, I am not embarrassed by their stupid behavior. By the way, you never did get around to explaining how “demilitarized” is distinct from “at Israel’s mercy”. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1143 "2010-06-09T20:32:14Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > What’s the point of being a country if you don’t have a military? How would you protect yourself against invaders? Are police allowed? My solution to the Middle East “crisis” is the same as yesterday: just merge Israel, Gaza, and what’s left of Palestine into one country. It’s easy. The U.S did it, the Canadians did it, and yes, even the Europeans are doing it with their EuroZone thingamajig. It’s silly to break these countries a part into “haves” and “have-nots” when you can just bring all of the countries under one banner and one flag. > > - Honesty The Jews want, and need, their own state, for reasons I stated days ago. They need a state wherein they will feel they will not be marginalized and, possibly, exiled, as happened time and time again, and that is not even mentioning the Holocaust. The Palestinians do want to merge Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank into one country, called “Palestine,” and they have so labeled this area on their maps. They want it to be an Arab country, but the Jews can live in it – for now. ---
**Author:** ![Unpronounceable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9de0a6/32.png) [@Unpronounceable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unpronounceable)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1144 "2010-06-09T21:01:55Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > What’s the point of being a country if you don’t have a military? _shrug_ Ask Japan. Their constitution forbids a military. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1145 "2010-06-09T21:07:17Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > The Jews want, and need, their own state, for reasons I stated days ago. They need a state wherein they will feel they will not be marginalized and, possibly, exiled, as happened time and time again, and that is not even mentioning the Holocaust. The Palestinians do want to merge Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank into one country, called “Palestine,” and they have so labeled this area on their maps. They want it to be an Arab country, but the Jews can live in it – for now. How are you defining “jews”? As a religious group? That seems to be the only difference between them and other Semites. If they are defined as a group acting under One Faith{ albeit with minor disputes.}, then what precedent is there for this religious group to be given a “homeland” of their choosing, based on some old historical records? ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1146 "2010-06-09T21:35:33Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > How are you defining “jews”? As a religious group? That seems to be the only difference between them and other Semites. If they are defined as a group acting under One Faith{ albeit with minor disputes.}, then what precedent is there for this religious group to be given a “homeland” of their choosing, based on some old historical records? The Jews are, of course, people belonging to the Jewish faith. Israel is not a homeland of their present choosing, but it is the homeland that God gave them thousands of years ago, and that some of them have been living on since. But, more importantly, due to the perpetual suffering of the Jews (not only historically, but in recent times), a state of their own is important to them. That was the goal of Zionism, which developed in the 19th century. I mentioned in a prior post that the USA was considered a safe state in which to emigrate, but they decided that the land that God had given them was the only safe bet. In view of the current international anti-Semitic feelings, including many in the US, they were right. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1147 "2010-06-09T21:57:18Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > The Jews are, of course, people belonging to the Jewish faith. Israel is not a homeland of their present choosing, but it is the homeland that God gave them thousands of years ago, and that some of them have been living on since. Two points here: it sounds like you’re making a blanket statement indicating Israel is important and necessary to all Jews, and that’s probably not going to fly. And particularly around here, people aren’t going to support the idea that god gave the land to the Jews. For starters, the Muslims also think it’s theirs. > [@](#): > > In view of the current international anti-Semitic feelings, including many in the US, they were right. I have trouble believing Jews face more danger from anti-Semites in the Middle East than they do in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1148 "2010-06-09T22:04:30Z")
> [@Unpronounceable](#): > > _shrug_ > > Ask Japan. Their constitution forbids a military. True enough, though they have a “self defense force”, a fine distinction which eludes many. And neither does Costa Rica have a military. However, they can if they choose, without requiring the permission and approval of another nation. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1149 "2010-06-09T22:28:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Two points here: it sounds like you’re making a blanket statement indicating Israel is important and necessary to all Jews, and that’s probably not going to fly. And particularly around here, people aren’t going to support the idea that god gave the land to the Jews. For starters, the Muslims also think it’s theirs. > I have trouble believing Jews face more danger from anti-Semites in the Middle East than they do in the U.S. I didn’t say that Muslims and others will support that statement. Obviously, the Muslims don’t. Jews face more danger from anti-Semites in Europe right now than they do in the Mideast. European synagogues are being defaced and burned. Jews in Europe are not safe from harassment. Only in Israel are they safe, except from attacks from those outside of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1150 "2010-06-09T22:45:03Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > The Jews are, of course, people belonging to the Jewish faith. Hmmm…no. Being a Jew doesn’t require to belong to the Jewish faith. > [@](#): > > Israel […] is the homeland that God gave them thousands of years ago, :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1151 "2010-06-09T22:54:24Z")
Try this instead: Israel is the land that the Jewish people owned for thousands of years until around 2000 years ago when they were displaced. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1152 "2010-06-09T23:30:22Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > Jews in Europe are not safe from harassment. Only in Israel are they safe, except from attacks from those outside of Israel. And yet they’re safer in the U.S. There are anti-semites in the U.S., but no existential threats to Jews at large. Compare to being in the heart of the Arab World and, well, let’s say I’m not totally convinced on the point that Jews are in danger unless they can all live in one place. > [@Babale](#): > > Try this instead: Israel is the land that the Jewish people owned for thousands of years until around 2000 years ago when they were displaced. That’s closer to accurate, but I thought the historical evidence says they never occupied _all_ of modern day Israel, just some of it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1153 "2010-06-10T00:51:43Z")
Now there’s a topic worthy of Great Debates! Pure archeology, at a rarified height, unsullied by political taint and partisan rhetoric! I’m speaking, of course, in my capacity as the Queen of Romania… ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1154 "2010-06-10T02:10:45Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s closer to accurate, but I thought the historical evidence says they never occupied _all_ of modern day Israel, just some of it. Ancient Israel didn’t include the southern tip of modern day Israel (IE the Negev) which at the time was completely empty. No Eilat, no nothing. However, it DID include an pretty big area past the Jordan and stretched slightly farther north. I can’t find a good map right now, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1155 "2010-06-10T02:19:42Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Ancient Israel didn’t include the southern tip of modern day Israel (IE the Negev) which at the time was completely empty. No Eilat, no nothing. However, it DID include an pretty big area past the Jordan and stretched slightly farther north. I can’t find a good map right now, sorry. Here’s a map of Hasmonean Israel on top of a map of modern Israel/the territories. [http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/Israel+in+Maps/The+Hasmonean+Kingdom+-The+Maccabees-+-+100+BCE.htm](http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/Israel+in+Maps/The+Hasmonean+Kingdom+-The+Maccabees-+-+100+BCE.htm) And here’s Herodian Israel. [http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/Israel+in+Maps/Kingdom+of+Herod-+30+BCE+to+70+CE.htm](http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/Israel+in+Maps/Kingdom+of+Herod-+30+BCE+to+70+CE.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1156 "2010-06-10T04:07:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I’m speaking, of course, in my capacity as the Queen of Romania… If you’re spending _that_ much time on the throne, perhaps you should try eating more bran. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1157 "2010-06-10T04:34:02Z")
Wilde? ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1158 "2010-06-10T10:36:45Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > What’s the point of being a country if you don’t have a military? How would you protect yourself against invaders? Are police allowed? My solution to the Middle East “crisis” is the same as yesterday: just merge Israel, Gaza, and what’s left of Palestine into one country. It’s easy. The U.S did it, the Canadians did it, and yes, even the Europeans are doing it with their EuroZone thingamajig. It’s silly to break these countries a part into “haves” and “have-nots” when you can just bring all of the countries under one banner and one flag. > > - Honesty That in fact is what many Palestinians and others want. One country, one vote for every man and woman, one representative government. The problem that faces the US and Israel when it comes to this is settlers are actually now beginning to move out of Israel. That is why they are being offered mortgages to buy in settlements and if they stay there for 10 years, the mortgage will be reimbursed. The Israeli birth rate is much lower than the Palestinian and this would lead to a Muslim majority government in time if not now once the refugees return. This is what is called democracy. Represetative government. This is exactly what the US and Israel DO NOT want. That is why they insist on two state solution when the rest of the people and a lot of Israeli’s prefer a one state solution. Democracy it seems is only when it suits US or Israeli policy. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1159 "2010-06-10T10:39:37Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Try this instead: Israel is the land that the Jewish people owned for thousands of years until around 2000 years ago when they were displaced. Then try applying that principle to the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1160 "2010-06-10T12:15:58Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > The Israeli birth rate is much lower than the Palestinian and this would lead to a Muslim majority government in time if not now once the refugees return. This is what is called democracy. It’s actually [a fallacy](http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2007/me_demographics_05_08.html). Newer population projections are showing a stable ratio of Israeli Jews to Arabs. > [@](#): > > Represetative government. > This is exactly what the US and Israel DO NOT want. > That is why they insist on two state solution when the rest of the people and a lot of Israeli’s prefer a one state solution. Cite for “a lot of Israelis” wanting their nation to be dissolved into a Greater Palestine? Oddly, the advocates who are hot for a “one-state solution” don’t seem to talk much about an obvious alternative - merge territory intended for a new Palestinian state into Jordan. Wouldn’t that lead to a more stable and economically viable entity while preserving Israel (the continued existence of which I strongly suspect is what virtually all Israelis want)? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=57) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=59)