# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 59
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1161 "2010-06-10T15:23:59Z")
[http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/06/09/95621/israeli-document-gaza-blockade.html](http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/06/09/95621/israeli-document-gaza-blockade.html) **Israeli document: Gaza blockade isn’t about security** > [@](#): > > As Israel ordered a slight easing of its blockade of the Gaza Strip Wednesday, McClatchy obtained an Israeli government document that describes the blockade not as a security measure but as “economic warfare” against the Islamist group Hamas, which rules the Palestinian territory… Offered without comment. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1162 "2010-06-10T19:01:48Z")
[**EXCLUSIVE: New Video Smuggled Out from Mavi Marmara of Israel’s Deadly Assault on Gaza Aid Flotilla**](http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/10/exclusive_journalist_smuggles_out_video_of) The Truth will out. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1163 "2010-06-11T02:16:22Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > The Truth will out. Possibly, although it will be shaped and spun by both sides and both sides will choose to believe only their own spin. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1164 "2010-06-11T02:27:46Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Possibly, although it will be shaped and spun by both sides and both sides will choose to believe only their own spin. And there will of course be bits of non-truth, like the faux transcript Red posted… and they’ll just be dropped into the punch bowl as gifts to get us to the Truth if the facts don’t. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1165 "2010-06-11T04:13:04Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Possibly, although it will be shaped and spun by both sides and both sides will choose to believe only their own spin. In your opinion, what spin are the activist putting on the events that happened? Where are you getting your facts from to formulate your opinions about what actually happened? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1166 "2010-06-11T04:24:06Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > And there will of course be bits of non-truth, like the faux transcript Red posted… and they’ll just be dropped into the punch bowl as gifts to get us to the Truth if the facts don’t. In your eagerness to defend us all from the Spanish Imposition, you neglected to include cites, facts, links, etc. At your fingertips, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1167 "2010-06-11T04:27:00Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > In your opinion, what spin are the activist putting on the events that happened? Where are you getting your facts from to formulate your opinions about what actually happened? First you will have to point to any opinion I have expressed about “what really happened” before I will bother to present my “facts.” Beyond the pretty clear notion that all parties will spin any “evidence” to portray themselves in the best light and their opponents in the worst light while fans of one party or another will accept the words of those they favor while denying the words of those they don’t, I have not expressed an opinion. I infer from your comment that you are proving my point, since you have jumped to a conclusion that I have opinions about the event when I have not expressed any such opinion. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1168 "2010-06-11T04:28:23Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > In your eagerness to defend us all from the Spanish Imposition, you neglected to include cites, facts, links, etc. At your fingertips, I’m sure. In your eagerness to contribute to the thread, you neglected to read it or pay attention to the cites, links, facts and discussion. You were about to, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1169 "2010-06-11T04:33:58Z")
Post #1161, posted this am. So, in the last twelve hours, me one, you zero. 'Nuff sed. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1170 "2010-06-11T10:50:57Z")
> **['Witness' to Flotilla? Not Quite](https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/138002)** > > U.S. Col. (Ret.) Ann Wright billed herself as a witness to 'murders' on Gaza boat, but has admitted she was 150 yards away. It was night time. > [@](#): > > In a promotional e-mail on behalf of “Code Pink: Women for Peace,” Wright says: “I just returned from the Gaza Freedom Flotilla and started my speaking tour last night in NYC to share what I witnessed aboard the flotilla, and what people can do to end the siege.” > > “I witnessed the Israeli attack that killed 9 persons and wounded 50 on the Gaza Flotilla… the murder of nine persons… Tragically, it took another example of disproportionate use of force by the Israeli military that resulted in the deaths of nine innocent civilians to force many governments of the world to call for the Israelis to end the siege of Gaza.” > > In the interview with Lerner she admitted that she was not aboard the Mavi Marmara but on a different ship, the Challenger, which was about 150 yards distant from the Marmara. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1171 "2010-06-11T10:56:45Z")
It’s not like she’s lying. She was on another boat, she saw the Israeli assault; she doesn’t seem to have claimed to have seen anything in detail, so she’s just a crap witness. Nothing sinister there. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1172 "2010-06-11T15:22:52Z")
A smart bit of commentary on this issue: [ > [@](#): > > But this does not make the raid smart. The “humanitarian mission” carried on the flotilla was not a move in a military game, nor was it a court case in which complicated judicial arguments count. It was a gambit in the game of p.r., played in front of a worldwide, hardly informed TV audience, and mediated, more often than not, by hostile media. It is easy to see how Israel could have handled the situation: It should’ve just let the flotilla pass. The whole hot-air balloon would have been deflated. The world audience, if it had noticed the affair at all, would have been left with a few snippets of the “peace activists” chanting anti-Semitic slogans to the wind, then hugging Hamas officials. That’s it. (There was a similar attempt to pull off a p.r. stunt under Ehud Olmert’s administration. Olmert let the “peace mission” through. No one remembers it now.) ]([S.O.S. | The New Republic](http://www.tnr.com/article/world/75397/sos?page=0,0)) Although very pro Israeli POV, it is also a sharp critique. ---
**Author:** ![Unpronounceable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9de0a6/32.png) [@Unpronounceable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unpronounceable)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1173 "2010-06-11T16:08:14Z")
Though it overlooks the fact that by “letting the flotilla pass,” it would have turned the _legal_ blockade into an _illegal_ one, as has already been explained in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1174 "2010-06-11T16:17:11Z")
It has been “explained” if you agree that it is so, otherwise, it has simply been “asserted”. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1175 "2010-06-11T17:07:33Z")
[http://countusout.wordpress.com/2010/06/09/video-israeli-soldiers-killing-furkan-19-years/](http://countusout.wordpress.com/2010/06/09/video-israeli-soldiers-killing-furkan-19-years/) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1176 "2010-06-11T19:19:46Z")
> [@Unpronounceable](#): > > Though it overlooks the fact that by “letting the flotilla pass,” it would have turned the _legal_ blockade into an _illegal_ one, as has already been explained in this thread. Facts are the basis of some narratives. Facts aren’t useful for some narratives. They’re actively detrimental for some others. Same old, same old. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1177 "2010-06-11T19:39:24Z")
Indeed! For instance, the notion has been bandied about that the blockade is legal and moral because it is for purposes of self defense, rather than economic warfare to punish the uncooperative. Of course, the document cited in Post #1161 calls that into serious question. As you are one of our leading advocates for fair and open debate, I eagerly await your response. Been a while. If you have some difficulty scrolling up, I will cheerfully reprint the link for you. Then, if you are not too tired, you can explain the _factual_ basis for your sneering response to **Red Furry** , above. If you’re not too busy? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1178 "2010-06-11T19:42:39Z")
**Red Furry**? Now that’s not very nice, is it? Are you calling him Clifford The Big Red Dog? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1179 "2010-06-11T19:46:28Z")
He’s Spanish. They roll their "R"s. Like Blackbeard. “R, me hearties, R!” ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1180 "2010-06-11T19:51:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Indeed! For instance, the notion has been bandied about that the blockade is legal and moral because it is for purposes of self defense, rather than economic warfare to punish the uncooperative. It’s all about the Binyamins. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=58) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=60)