# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/101 "2010-05-31T14:27:57Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > My family in Haifa spent a month in a bomb shelter, and you’re talking about \*Israeli \*savagery? You really have no shame. > [@](#): > > Believe me, if \*your \*city had been bombed by a neighboring country, \*your \*government would have nuked that country into a parking lot. Don’t get all high and mighty with me; we know how blase you people can be when it’s not your own citizens being attacked. Err, my city _was_ bombed. [Manchester city centre](http://www.johncoulthart.com/feuilleton/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/bomb1.jpg) was flattened in the mid-1990s by the IRA. [Warrington](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrington_bomb_attacks), a town a few miles down the road from me, was also bombed twice. Somehow we managed to avoid turning Northern Ireland into a smoldering wasteland. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/102 "2010-05-31T14:32:28Z")
**TWEEEEEET!** Enough with the personal remarks. I realize that this is an emotional issue, but it does not get easier to discuss when it is filled with snide comments and innuendo. Stop it. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/103 "2010-05-31T14:33:08Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I don’t know. If the blockade had been broken, Hamas equipped itself with tons of weaponry, launched an attack on Israel and forced Israel to respond - would things be any better? Hey, you keep claiming this despite having zero actual evidence that these ships reaching Gaza would result in Hamas getting new and better guns. Either provide proof that _these ships in particular_ were smuggling weapons or drop this dumb talking point. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/104 "2010-05-31T14:35:19Z")
A little bit of insight into the blockade: > **[BBC News - Details of Gaza blockade revealed in court case](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8654337.stm)** > > BBC News has seen documents which give more detail than ever before about how and why Israel maintains its Gaza blockade. > [@](#): > > And she says that some of the prohibitions appear to be absurdly arbitrary: “I certainly don’t understand why cinnamon is permitted, but coriander is forbidden. Is there something more dangerous about coriander? Is coriander more critical to Gaza’s economy than cinnamon? This is a policy that appears to make no sense.” > [@](#): > > The BBC has received information from reliable sources that there are currently 81 items that are approved for import - from kidney beans to tinned meat - and as of March, shoes. > > Among the large range of goods currently forbidden are jam, chocolate, wood for furniture, fruit juice, textiles, and plastic toys. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/105 "2010-05-31T14:39:51Z")
Also, shut up about the efficacy of the blockade being raped and murdered by a couple ships actually reaching Gaza. Blockades only rarely stand or fall on individual ships getting past the blockaders. (Would you claim the American blockade of Japan in WW2 was a failure because it didn’t stop 100% of Japanese merchant traffic from arriving safely?) They are long-term strategies that only succeed after a sustained period of more or less successful prevention of contraband reaching those under blockade. Israel could have easily let these ships unload at Gaza after a cursory inspection without the legitimacy of their restrictions on arms traffic being undermined. That they chose not to is a massive black mark on the current Israeli government’s credibility. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/106 "2010-05-31T14:39:51Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > My family in Haifa spent a month in a bomb shelter, and you’re talking about \*Israeli \*savagery? > > Believe me, if \*your \*city had been bombed by a neighboring country, \*your \*government would have nuked that country into a parking lot. Don’t get all high and mighty with me; we know how blase you people can be when it’s not your own citizens being attacked. I shouldn’t think so. There is a question of proportionality that Israel might well be advised to learn. We’re not living in the 1970s any more and the total security syndrome has diminishing returns now. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/107 "2010-05-31T14:42:36Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > Hey, you keep claiming this despite having zero actual evidence that these ships reaching Gaza would result in Hamas getting new and better guns. Either provide proof that _these ships in particular_ were smuggling weapons or drop this dumb talking point. A blockade loses its effectiveness if you allow ships through it without inspections. If you only stop some ships, then it just becomes arbitrary and ineffective. So, if these ships had been allowed to reach Gaza unmolested, even if they didn’t have forbidden items, then the blockade would have been weakened. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/108 "2010-05-31T14:44:08Z")
The more I read that comment the stupider it gets. For fucks sake, the Falkland Islands were invaded in the 80s and we didn’t turn Argentina into glass. In fact, there was very little bombing of the Argentine mainland at all. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/109 "2010-05-31T14:45:02Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Mine did. I grew up in a small town outside Coventry, which got decimated in WW2. My Father grew up in Sheffield, where my Grandfather had a breakdown after pulling out his dead nextdoor neighbour from the remains of his house when the German bombed it. We eventually won the war and then got on with it. We’re friends with Germany now. If they’ve been firing glorified fireworks at us or we’ve been leveling their cities still then I must have missed it on the news. You \*did \*level their cities - and they’re your friends now \*because \*you defeated them so completely. Another conditional surrender like in WW1 would have led to WW3. You decided that the only way to achieve peace was to crush your enemy into dust. In that, you’re our inspiration. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/110 "2010-05-31T14:45:43Z")
And Yahweh forbid that Israel should appear conciliatory to its enemies. > [@Alessan](#): > > In that, you’re our inspiration. Yes, well you’ve not quite got the hang of the “making friends” bit yet, have you? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/111 "2010-05-31T14:46:25Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > Hey, you keep claiming this despite having zero actual evidence that these ships reaching Gaza would result in Hamas getting new and better guns. Prove they won’t. My government is responsible for protecting me from potential threats, not just proven ones. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/112 "2010-05-31T14:50:08Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Err, my city _was_ bombed. [Manchester city centre](http://www.johncoulthart.com/feuilleton/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/bomb1.jpg) was flattened in the mid-1990s by the IRA. [Warrington](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrington_bomb_attacks), a town a few miles down the road from me, was also bombed twice. Somehow we managed to avoid turning Northern Ireland into a smoldering wasteland. That’s because you were illegally occupying Northern Ireland at the time. Still are, in fact. Israel, OTOH, had left Lebanon 6 years before. The Lebanese had absolutely no reason to attack us - and yet they did. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/113 "2010-05-31T14:50:54Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Prove they won’t. My government is responsible for protecting me from potential threats, not just proven ones. What about invented ones? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/114 "2010-05-31T14:51:05Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > with one notable person comparing the British to the Nazis for doing it I’m not going to get involved in the debate at this time, but I will point out that this is 100%, completely fictional. Nobody compared the British to the Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/115 "2010-05-31T14:51:10Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Yes, well you’ve not quite got the hang of the “making friends” bit yet, have you? We’re waiting for the unconditional surrender first. Of course, we aren’t nearly as brutal as the Allies were. So there’s that. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/116 "2010-05-31T14:52:40Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > A blockade loses its effectiveness if you allow ships through it without inspections. If you only stop some ships, then it just becomes arbitrary and ineffective. So, if these ships had been allowed to reach Gaza unmolested, even if they didn’t have forbidden items, then the blockade would have been weakened. Again, they never even attempted to peaceful inspect these ships. And as I said, one group of ships getting through to Gaza doesn’t undermine the overall effectiveness of a blockade unless you’re willing to contest the example I gave you. Go on, tell me that the American blockade of Japan wasn’t effective in 1945 despite the fact numerous Japanese merchantmen reached their destinations in Japan without being sunk. > [@Alessan](#): > > That’s because you were illegally occupying Northern Ireland at the time. Still are, in fact. Oh good, let’s start down _this_ road. Suffice it to say that LOL TO YOU resides at the end. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/117 "2010-05-31T14:52:49Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That’s because you were illegally occupying Northern Ireland at the time. Still are, in fact. And they hate us that much for doing it that they are mortar bombing us as we type… oh, hang on - no they’re not; it must have been a car exhaust backfiring. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/118 "2010-05-31T14:52:56Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That’s because you were illegally occupying Northern Ireland at the time. Still are, in fact. Um, no. Your ass is for shitting out of, not talking with. > [@](#): > > Israel, OTOH, had left Lebanon 6 years before. The Lebanese had absolutely no reason to attack us - and yet they did. Again, no. A band of terrorists attacked you. In response, you flattened the whole of Lebanon. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/119 "2010-05-31T14:58:10Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > You \*did \*level their cities - and they’re your friends now \*because \*you defeated them so completely. Another conditional surrender like in WW1 would have led to WW3. You decided that the only way to achieve peace was to crush your enemy into dust. In that, you’re our inspiration. And then treated them humanely afterwards, that being the whole point of what I wrote. Congratulations on so spectacularly missing it. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/120 "2010-05-31T14:59:13Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I’m not going to get involved in the debate at this time, but I will point out that this is 100%, completely fictional. Nobody compared the British to the Nazis. Apart from you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=7)