# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 60
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1181 "2010-06-11T19:57:24Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > But really, gentlemen: proposing terms that the other guy cannot possibly accept without throwing himself entirely upon your tender mercies? This is your idea of a “peace offering”? Isn’t that also the Israeli view of the right of return? The right fo return looks (to many in Israel) like an offer that the current Jewish majority in Israel give up that majority and subject themselves to the democratic mercies of a Palestinian majority. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1182 "2010-06-11T19:58:48Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Of course, the document cited in Post #1161 calls that into serious question. Of course, it doesn’t. But it has been misrepresented as such. A document that talks about the economic aspect of the blockade, one that’s explicitly authorized by the 4th Geneva Convention, is presented as something that gainsays any other possible dynamics to the blockade. It’s a rather transparent dodge. And you’re welcome to read the thread whenever is convenient for you and comment about the faux transcript that Red posted and then didn’t deign to mention once it was shown to be a forgery. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1183 "2010-06-11T20:10:45Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Indeed! For instance, the notion has been bandied about that the blockade is legal and moral because it is for purposes of self defense, rather than economic warfare to punish the uncooperative. Of course, the document cited in Post #1161 calls that into serious question. > > As you are one of our leading advocates for fair and open debate, I eagerly await your response. Been a while. If you have some difficulty scrolling up, I will cheerfully reprint the link for you. Then, if you are not too tired, you can explain the _factual_ basis for your sneering response to **Red Furry** , above. > > If you’re not too busy? No, the basis for declaring the blockade legal is that starvation of the population is not its “sole intent”, and that the harm to civilians caused by the blockade is outweighed by the “military” objectives. Those are the critera as established in the relevant document - the Manual codification of international law. Thus, even taking as a given that one purpose of the blockade is to put pressure on the general population (and I think that this is indeed one purpose), this in itself does not make the blockade “illegal” under international law. Whether or not the blockade is moral or sensible is of course a matter of opinion. In mine, some form of blockade - to keep out heavy weaponry - would be both; I dislike the current Israeli version as being excessively arbitrary. Nonetheless, no matter what my personal opinion is, it remains _legal_. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1184 "2010-06-11T20:21:19Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yet again, you are entitled to your own opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts, **and you are certainly not entitled to disregard any facts that are inconvenient to your narrative.** BOLDING MINE Needle on my irony meter just snapped off. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1185 "2010-06-11T20:44:53Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > What’s the point of being a country if you don’t have a military? How would you protect yourself against invaders? Are police allowed? My solution to the Middle East “crisis” is the same as yesterday: just merge Israel, Gaza, and what’s left of Palestine into one country. It’s easy. The U.S did it, the Canadians did it, and yes, even the Europeans are doing it with their EuroZone thingamajig. It’s silly to break these countries a part into “haves” and “have-nots” when you can just bring all of the countries under one banner and one flag. > > - Honesty I think the point is that Palestine should not have the capability to attack Israel. I would counter that israel could handle any attack that palestinians could muster, their real existential threat comes from larger more developed arab countries that were once willing to recognize Israel (but it is not clear that they still are). As Finn has displayed, a single state solution is simply not acceptable because it will destroy Israel (as a jewish state) and leave us with a state that is majority Palestinian (and the palestinians will undoubetedly establish concentration camps). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1186 "2010-06-11T20:49:35Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > By the way, you never did get around to explaining how “demilitarized” is distinct from “at Israel’s mercy”. Why would he answer something that undermines his argument. He doesn’t necessarily want a demilitarized Palestine so that palestine will be at his mercy, it is just a happy side effect of wanting a demilitarized Palestine so that Palestine will not be able to attack Israel (and no Israel will not simply trust that the folks that they have kept in refugee camps for the last 60 years will simply forgive israel for generations of abuse and injustice). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1187 "2010-06-11T20:52:40Z")
> [@Unpronounceable](#): > > _shrug_ > > Ask Japan. Their constitution forbids a military. But they are not demilitarized in the sense that Finn means (which is wierd because he has in the past said that he would be OK with a palestinian state having military power (at least enough to keep terrosists in check, and considering how much military force the IDF has to use to suppress terrorism…). ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1188 "2010-06-11T21:02:54Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Why would he answer something that undermines his argument. Please respond to what I’ve actually posted rather than.. .whatever it is you’re responding to. The fact is that Netanyahu agreed to a Palestinian state if it was demilitarized. It is your fiction that I was the one who advocated such a thing, i was simply responding to the fiction that Netanyahu did not really support a Palestinian state. That you are now repeating this nonsense about a demilitarized state in the way in which “I” mean it is nonsense. I’ve never endorsed any such thing. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1189 "2010-06-11T21:08:28Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > One country, one vote for every man and woman, one representative government. And how would you guarantee the rights and safety of jews in a Palestine with a minority jewish population? I think people who think a majority Palestinian Israel will become a muslim theocracy fail to recognize taht there are plenty of muslim arab states that are not theocracies, but are the Palestinians simply going to forgive the Jews for 60 years of injustice? really? > [@](#): > > This is exactly what the US and Israel DO NOT want. To be fair, I don’t think the USa really cares about the demographics of Israel so much as it cares about the Pro-American stance of Israel and as israel joins the rest of the world in criticizing the USA, the USA starts to wonder if we should be supporting Israel with money and political capital as much as we do. > [@](#): > > That is why they insist on two state solution when the rest of the people and a lot of Israeli’s prefer a one state solution. I don’t think Netenyahu is insisting on any sort of solution. I think that the widow of Yitzhak Rabin is genuine in her advocacy of a a two state solution as the only practical solution that has a chance of achieving peace. I think the one state solution is nice to think about but Palestinians can either have half a state now (and in all likelihood the other half when Israeli demographics makes the jews in israel a large minority) or they can wait until Israeli Jews are on the verge of losing their majority and risk the Knesset passing a law that strips citizenship from Palestinians. I say take your bird in the hand now and get the other one later. Still don’t know what to do about Kerusalem (since noone seems to take my idea of giving it to the Buddhists seriously, Those tibetans might be able to teach the arabs and Jews a thing or two about peace). ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1190 "2010-06-11T21:09:14Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > But they are not demilitarized in the sense that Finn means (which is wierd because he has in the past said that he would be OK with a palestinian state having military power (at least enough to keep terrosists in check, and considering how much military force the IDF has to use to suppress terrorism…). Japan is indeed anything other than demilitarized. Japan’s military, the [Jieitai](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Self-Defense_Forces), has the seventh largest budget in the world. It has nearly a quarter million personnel and another 60k in reserve. Japanese contingents have been involved in UN peacekeeping operations, and some were deployed in Iraq until 2006. This is obviously not central to the Palestinian issue, but since enough people keep repeating this canard about the Japanese military, I figure it bears mention. The Japanese have formally renounced war and belligerency; nevertheless, I would not want to fuck with their self-defence forces. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1191 "2010-06-11T21:11:38Z")
[http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam\_multimedia/English/eng\_n/html/hamas\_e112.htm](http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/hamas_e112.htm) > [@](#): > > The videotaped statements of two Mavi Marmara crew members show that preparations for a violent confrontation with IDF forces were put in motion about two hours before the boarding began, when the Israeli Navy hailed the ship and told it to halt. > 2. According to the statements, the atmosphere See also [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/09/AR2010060905930.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/09/AR2010060905930.html) [http://frontpagemag.com/2010/06/07/muslim-lies-and-videotape/](http://frontpagemag.com/2010/06/07/muslim-lies-and-videotape/) > [@](#): > > More and more facts are coming out about the aforementioned incident and it does not look good for those who rushed to judgment and fell for the hype. As we now know, for instance, video footage has proven that the Gaza flotilla jihadists initiated the violence against Israeli soldiers: [http://article.nationalreview.com/435916/beyond-bigotry/clifford-d-may](http://article.nationalreview.com/435916/beyond-bigotry/clifford-d-may) > [@](#): > > A Washington Post reporter in Gaza last week noted that “grocery stores are stocked wall-to-wall with everything from fresh Israeli yogurts and hummus to Cocoa Puffs. Pharmacies look as well-supplied as a typical Rite Aid in the United States.” Perhaps Erdogan really does want to establish a new Ottoman empire: [http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/06/10/the\_new\_wannabe\_ottomans\_105913.html](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/06/10/the_new_wannabe_ottomans_105913.html) > [@](#): > > Erdogan clearly identifies more with the old transnational Ottoman sultanate than with Kemal Ataturk’s modern, secular and Western nation-state. Indeed, he has bragged that he is a grandson of the Ottomans and announced that Turkey’s new goal was to restore the might of the Ottoman Empire. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1192 "2010-06-11T21:16:05Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > It’s actually [a fallacy](http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2007/me_demographics_05_08.html). Newer population projections are showing a stable ratio of Israeli Jews to Arabs. I would propose that [Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Entry_into_Israel_Law) combined with [Law of Return - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return) is skewing the result ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1193 "2010-06-11T21:17:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > [http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/06/09/95621/israeli-document-gaza-blockade.html](http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/06/09/95621/israeli-document-gaza-blockade.html) > > **Israeli document: Gaza blockade isn’t about security** > > Offered without comment. I think the unapologetic position is that it this is a valid objective in war. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1194 "2010-06-11T21:36:19Z")
For those of you who ask when will there be peace? The answer: when the hate indoctrination of children stops, allowing them to live in peace. The horrendous indoctrination of children in Gaza by Hamas should concern human rights activists at least as much as whether they have jam for their toast. Below,a video from Itamar Marcus’ Palestinian Media Watch showing "how Hamas promotes hatred, violence, martyrdom, for children all from their own TV, with an intro by Hillary Clinton. The name is “Bombs are more precious than children” [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/YIBNRVgq59Y/hqdefault.jpg "Hamas indoctrination of Kids: Bombs more precious than children") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIBNRVgq59Y) [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/YIBNRVgq59Y/hqdefault.jpg "Hamas indoctrination of Kids: Bombs more precious than children") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIBNRVgq59Y) ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1195 "2010-06-11T22:14:29Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > For those of you who ask when will there be peace? The answer: when the hate indoctrination of children stops, allowing them to live in peace How does the ban on coriander promote this prospect? Seems to me that petty shit like that encourages folks to tell their children that Israelis are hateful bastards who want them to suffer. Is it Israel’s master plan to lead the Palestinians clear through hatred, and out the other side to where love conquers all, or what? If so, I suspect that they’ve been reading far too much Pratchett to get along with anyone in the real world. The way Israel has implemented the blockade effectively eliminates any possibility of there ever being peace, without the utter destruction of one side or the other. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1196 "2010-06-11T22:45:20Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > How does the ban on coriander promote this prospect? > Seems to me that petty shit like that encourages folks to tell their children that Israelis are hateful bastards who want them to suffer. Is it Israel’s master plan to lead the Palestinians clear through hatred, and out the other side to where love conquers all, or what? If so, I suspect that they’ve been reading far too much Pratchett to get along with anyone in the real world. > The way Israel has implemented the blockade effectively eliminates any possibility of there ever being peace, without the utter destruction of one side or the other. If you click on some of those other links, you’ll see that some of those who have been in Gaza (including journalists) say there is not the shortage Hamas claims. “Petty shit” indeed. What’s petty about indoctrinating children to hate Israelis, who are depicted as animals? Israel does not have a master plan. All she wants is to be recognized as a state by the Palestinians and other Arabs. And to be left in peace. All Palestine wants is the destruction of Israel and the end of a Jewish state. The main purpose of the flotilla, as noted many times over, was to break the blockade, so that future shipments will not be inspected, and those future shipments will quite probably contain arms for the Hamas. Check my recent links. The flotilla expected and invited a confrontation. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1197 "2010-06-11T23:54:45Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > If you click on some of those other links, you’ll see that some of those who have been in Gaza (including journalists) say there is not the shortage Hamas claims. “Petty shit” indeed. So _pick_ an example that you’ll allow is real. Or do you prefer to claim there are NO petty shortages imposed by the blockade? Whatever that shortage may be, it promotes the teaching of hatred. Barring some sort of quantum leap in Palestinian conciousness, you’ll never achieve peace by pissing them off with petty bullshit. If Palestinians must give up their hatred for peace to happen, mustn’t the Israelis also give up their hatred? Why not? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1198 "2010-06-12T00:03:37Z")
[Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center](http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/hamas_e112.htm) Rather grandiose name for a site that seems to have opened two days ago and has but that one “article” on it. :rolleyes: Funny though, as I picture thousands of dedicated Israelis furiously sitting at their 'puters thinking of ways to spin this colossal fuck-up. This one in particular, sucks. Must. Do. Better. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1199 "2010-06-12T00:11:40Z")
Democracy and tolerance in action. Israel style: [**Arab lawmaker on flotilla sparks outrage in Israel**](http://wire.antiwar.com/2010/06/10/arab-lawmaker-on-flotilla-sparks-outrage-in-israel/) > [@](#): > > \*\*An Israeli-Arab lawmaker’s decision to join hundreds of activists on a pro-Palestinian flotilla has elevated her from relative political obscurity, transforming her into the poster child for the growing rift between Israel’s Jewish majority and its Arab minority. > > Unapologetic for defying Israel’s Gaza blockade and being on board the boat where activists clashed with Israeli commandos during last week’s raid on the flotilla, Hanin Zoabi has received death threats, was nearly assaulted in parliament and faces high-level calls to strip her of Israeli citizenship. > > \ > > Israeli Arabs make up about one-fifth of Israel’s population. Although they enjoy equal citizenship rights, they have suffered from decades of discrimination, high unemployment, poverty and are often viewed through a prism of mistrust.\*\* – underscore mine. What a country! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1200 "2010-06-12T00:23:42Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > …That you are now repeating this nonsense about a demilitarized state in the way in which “I” mean it is nonsense. I’ve never endorsed any such thing. You have been asked for a definition as to your meaning of “demilitarized” several times, to my personal knowledge. All you appear to be willing to say is that you are woefully misunderstood, but won’t actually clarify your meaning, in particular how that differs from a state of practical helplessness. Which is to say, at Israel’s mercy. Rather than ask us to play twenty questions, wouldn’t it be simpler just to tell us exactly what you mean, rather than deny misinterpretations? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=59) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=61)