# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 61
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1201 "2010-06-12T02:07:53Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > [http://frontpagemag.com/2010/06/07/muslim-lies-and-videotape/](http://frontpagemag.com/2010/06/07/muslim-lies-and-videotape/) Oh, stow it. The notion that “the Israelis were attacked first” depends on the idea that boarding someone else’s ship against their will in international waters far from anybody’s territorial waters is somehow not an attack. If Israel weren’t a nation, that would be an act of piracy, and those on board ship would have every right to resist. Since Israel has no jurisdiction in the middle of the Med, the right to resist - and _resistance_ is what it is - is still there. And while IANAL and especially am no expert on international maritime law, I don’t see how Israel’s existence as a nation gets their military off the hook for piracy. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1202 "2010-06-12T02:08:15Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > …Thus, even taking as a given that one purpose of the blockade is to put pressure on the general population (and I think that this is indeed one purpose), this in itself does not make the blockade “illegal” under international law… Not slighting your expertise or interpretation, but I cannot help but feel this is a douchetarded feature. Like, says who? A nation might impose a blockade upon a helpless but unfriendly neighbor, so long as they raise a pinky finger and swear that if is not intended to punish the civilian population? So long as they promise to play nice, its legal? How would one judge that from without? Wouldn’t it be the type of goods that are prohibited, how many a truly military, like C4, and how many are certainly civilian comforts, like wheel chairs and coriander? Is it impossible that a prohibition list can go too far, can be come so burdensome to a suffering civilian population that the blockade becomes illegal? Or is the self-attested motives sufficient to render anything legal? “Say there, you! Its illegal to sneak into that house and steal their jewelry.” “Oh, I won’t keep it, its only illegal if I keep it. I’m just going to take it, show it to my mom, and bring it right back!” “Well, in that case, nevermind. Carry on…” ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1203 "2010-06-12T02:33:17Z")
[End the siege on Israel](http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/end-the-siege-on-israel-1.295523) > [@](#): > > Israel’s deadly attack on the “Freedom Flotilla” is proof of how Gaza continues to give Israel a taste of its own medicine. Intended to help solve Israel’s problems with Hamas, the three-year-old siege of Gaza is developing into a siege of Israel, while it causes tremendous damage to the country’s image around the world. > [@](#): > > The day after the Mavi Marmara incident, the head of the Mossad, Meir Dagan, bluntly told the Knesset: “Israel is becoming more of a liability and less of an asset for the United States.” > [@](#): > > Israel’s leaders - with the help of the United States and the international community - must redefine their country’s long-term vision and goals, and allow a Palestinian state to exist by its side. If Israel’s goal is to live in a democracy and in peace with the Palestinians, then its path should be clear: Lift the siege on Gaza, encourage a unity government, and let the Palestinians build their own democracy. Does Israel want to live in peace with their Palestinian neighbors? Does it want to be an Albatross around America’s neck? It’s time to get off the dime and take some clarifying action. Sitting on the situation like this is harming the US, and it’s harming Israel. ---
**Author:** ![matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@matt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1204 "2010-06-12T03:34:58Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > If Israel weren’t a nation, that would be an act of piracy, and those on board ship would have every right to resist. Since Israel has no jurisdiction in the middle of the Med, the right to resist - and _resistance_ is what it is - is still there. And while IANAL and especially am no expert on international maritime law, I don’t see how Israel’s existence as a nation gets their military off the hook for piracy. It’s technically within the Geneva conventions in that Israel had a declared blockade in force and the boarded ships were self-declared blockade runners. Of course, it’s technically within the Geneva conventions to declare war on a nation and then drop bombs on it, as well. The Geneva conventions aren’t any kind of bastion of morality: they’re a set of agreed-upon niceties to make the disgusting business of armed conflict slightly less awful. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1205 "2010-06-12T03:51:33Z")
> [@matt](#): > > ..were self-declared blockade runners… A quibble about spin, perhaps even unintentional spin. Since the members of the flotilla had declared their opinion that the blockade was illegal, they most likely considered themselves perfectly legitimate carriers. What they declared themselves was a humanitarian mission. If they were carrying machine guns, rocket parts and warheads, they would most assuredly be blockade runners. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1206 "2010-06-12T04:07:54Z")
You are welcome to cite anywhere in the Sam Remo Manual where it defines blockade runners as those with machine guns and ordinance rather than those who declare their intention to violate a blockade. Or where it says that those who are running a blockade don’t count if they refuse to recognize the blockade. Certainly you can cite that since you’re against spin, and such. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1207 "2010-06-12T06:20:46Z")
Oh! If you don’t recognize something, it isn’t illegal? I’m sorry I doubted you, that makes PERFECT sense! Why, that new computer I can’t afford? I’ll just steal it and declare that I don’t recognize the laws against theft. That guy who always cuts me at the store? I’ll just murder him and declare that I don’t recognize the laws against murder, if that’s alright with you. Oh, and I think I’ll start breaking board rules all over the place since I can choose to not recognize them, and if I get banned I can just make a new account… I don’t recognize the rule against that, either. Thanks, **elucidator**! You made my life so much simpler. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1208 "2010-06-12T07:53:15Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Democracy and tolerance in action. Israel style: > > [**Arab lawmaker on flotilla sparks outrage in Israel**](http://wire.antiwar.com/2010/06/10/arab-lawmaker-on-flotilla-sparks-outrage-in-israel/) > > – underscore mine. > > What a country! She was on a flotilla that set out with the specific purpose of running a legitimate blockade, established to deny supplies to an organisation that attacks Israel with rockets at every opportunity. Aren’t we talking about literal _treason_, here? ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1209 "2010-06-12T10:39:00Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > So _pick_ an example that you’ll allow is real. Or do you prefer to claim there are NO petty shortages imposed by the blockade? > Whatever that shortage may be, it promotes the teaching of hatred. > Barring some sort of quantum leap in Palestinian conciousness, you’ll never achieve peace by pissing them off with petty bullshit. > If Palestinians must give up their hatred for peace to happen, mustn’t the Israelis also give up their hatred? Why not? Israel doesn’t have any hatred. She wants to ensure the existence of her country. When Palestinians indoctrinate their young ones that Israelites are nothing more than animals, animals to be despised, that’s the teaching of hatred. As to the legality of the intervention of the flotilla, I’ll let an expert speak: By Alan Dershowitz Wednesday, June 2nd 2010, 4:00 AM [www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/06/02/2010-06-02\_israel\_obeyed\_international\_law\_legally\_the\_gaza\_flotilla\_conflict\_is\_an\_openand.html#ixzz0pnmBy88E](http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/06/02/2010-06-02_israel_obeyed_international_law_legally_the_gaza_flotilla_conflict_is_an_openand.html#ixzz0pnmBy88E) > [@](#): > > Although the wisdom of Israel’s actions in stopping the Gaza flotilla is > open to question, the legality of its actions is not. What Israel did was > entirely consistent with both international and domestic law. In order to > understand why, the complex events at sea must be deconstructed. > > First, there is the Israeli blockade of Gaza. Recall that when Israel ended > its occupation of Gaza, it did not impose a blockade. Indeed, it left behind > agricultural facilities in the hope that the newly liberated Gaza Strip > would become a peaceful and productive area. > > Instead, Hamas seized control over Gaza and engaged in acts of warfare > against Israel. These acts of warfare featured anti-personnel rockets, > nearly 10,000 of them, directed at Israeli civilians. This was not only an > act of warfare, it was a war crime. Israel responded to the rockets by > declaring a blockade, the purpose of which was to assure that no rockets or > other material that could be used for making war against Israeli civilians > were permitted into Gaza. > > Israel allowed humanitarian aid through its checkpoints. Egypt as well > participated in the blockade. There was never a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, > merely a shortage of certain goods that would end if the rocket attacks > ended. > > The legality of blockades as a response to acts of war is not subject to > serious doubt. When the United States blockaded Cuba during the missile > crisis, the State Department issued an opinion declaring the blockade to be > lawful. This despite the fact that Cuba had not engaged in any act of > belligerence against the United States. Other nations have similarly > enforced naval blockades to assure their own security. > > The second issue is whether it is lawful to enforce a legal blockade in > international waters. Again, law and practice are clear. If there is no > doubt that the offending ships have made a firm determination to break the > blockade, then the blockade may be enforced before the offending ships cross > the line into domestic waters. Again the United States and other Western > countries have frequently boarded ships at high sea in order to assure their > security. > > Third, were those onboard the ship simply innocent noncombatants? The act of > breaking a military siege is itself a military act. And let there be no > mistake about the purpose of this flotilla; it was decidedly not to provide > humanitarian aid to the residents of Gaza, but rather to break the entirely > lawful Israeli military blockade. The proof lies in the fact that both > Israel and Egypt offered to have all the food, medicine and other > humanitarian goods sent to Gaza, if the boats agreed to land in an Israeli > or Egyptian port. That humanitarian offer was soundly rejected by the > leaders of the flotilla, who publicly announced: “This mission is not about > delivering humanitarian supplies, it’s about breaking Israel’s siege on 1.5 > million Palestinians.” > > It is a close question whether “civilians” who agree to participate in the > breaking of a military blockade have become combatants. They are certainly > something different from pure innocents, and perhaps they are also somewhat > different from pure armed combatants. > > Finally, we come to the issue of the right of self-defense engaged in by > Israeli soldiers who were attacked by activists on the boat. There can be > little doubt that the moment any person on the boat picked up a weapon and > began to attack Israeli soldiers, they lost their status as innocent > civilians. > > Even if that were not the case, under ordinary civilian rules of > self-defense, every Israeli soldier had the right to protect himself and his > colleagues from attack by knife- and pipe-wielding assailants. Lest there be > any doubt that Israeli soldiers were under attack, simply view the online > video and watch the so-called peaceful activists pummel Israeli soldiers > with metal rods. > > Every individual has the right to repel such attacks by the use of lethal > force. That was especially true in this case, when the soldiers were so > outnumbered on the deck of the ship. Recall that Israel’s rules of > engagement required its soldiers to fire only paintballs unless their lives > were in danger. > > Would any country in the world deny its soldiers the right of self-defense > under comparable circumstances? > > Israel’s critics fail to pinpoint precisely what Israel did that allegedly > violates international law. Some have wrongly focused on the blockade > itself. Others have erroneously pointed to the location of the boarding in > international waters. Most have simply pointed to the deaths of so-called > peace activists, though these deaths appear to be the result of lawful acts > of self-defense. > > There can be little doubt that the mission was a failure, as judged by its > results. It is important, however, to distinguish between faulty policies > and alleged violations of international law. Only the latter would warrant > international intervention, and the case has simply not been made that > Israel violated international law. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1210 "2010-06-12T14:50:16Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > Israel doesn’t have any hatred. nudge, nudge ;)😉 There you go! Your pardon if I do not believe that Israel is perfect enough to moved beyond hatred. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1211 "2010-06-12T15:01:24Z")
Why, then, do we have such rules? Is it not an expression of our civilization, that we are not savages, that we do not visit misery upon the helpless? Do we ferret out technicalities to drape over our vicious behavior with sanctimonious piety? If you are going to loudly proclaim your right to self-defense as your justification, how does that justify tormenting civilians? But no! No, that’s just an unfortunate side effect, its not the real purpose, the real purpose is to protect ourselves from weaponry. Why, if we can claim that, at whatever abstraction, however theoretical, well, then we are justified in the most vicious behavior, we have a legal technicality! Its right here, in section 111-A, subset vi! What an enormous comfort that must be for you, to know that your base and low efforts to punish civilians for their refusal to love you are quite perfectly legal! Surely, you are to be applauded for your punctilious observance of the letter of the law, even as your wipe your ass on its purpose. And you wonder why they hate you. What is the operative proportion, if one may ask? If this blockade is ninety-nine percent for the punishment of the weak, and you can squeeze out one percent of justification by self-defense, are you therefore innocent? Why, they might very well mount those wheel chairs and strap vests of coriander and chamomile, roll across the desert to attack! Heaven only knows what evil purposes they have in mind for food and medicine! I was not aware that Israel had become a nation of atheistic, cynical lawyers. This must be a proud moment. How eagerly you must look forward to standing before the Throne, and when He asks what have you done to His children, you can offer Him Article Four, Subsection II, and bask in His approval for your clever semantic distinctions. I would that I believed, so that I might look forward to the day. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1212 "2010-06-12T15:14:21Z")
Oh, and while we’re about it, what does “demilitarized” mean, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1213 "2010-06-12T15:16:27Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > If Israel weren’t a nation, that would be an act of piracy, and those on board ship would have every right to resist. Since Israel has no jurisdiction in the middle of the Med, the right to resist - and _resistance_ is what it is - is still there. And while IANAL and especially am no expert on international maritime law, I don’t see how Israel’s existence as a nation gets their military off the hook for piracy. Well, you might want to contact an actual lawyer, then. Israel is a nation, this means that if it arrests and detains a person\*, it is not engaged in kidnapping; if it taxes a person\*, it is not engaged in theft; if it enforces a blockade\*, it is not engaged in piracy. Nations do have different rights and obligations than individuals or even corporations and pretending that they do not is simply wishful thinking and poor argumentation. - (Following appropriate rules of law, of course.) ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1214 "2010-06-12T15:20:37Z")
Well **elucinator** , since you’re demanding an answer to “demilitarized”, I demand an answer to my question above. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1215 "2010-06-12T15:21:23Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > …\* (Following appropriate rules of law, of course.) Well, yes, of course! After all, we are civilized men! Savages don’t have lawyers! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1216 "2010-06-12T15:25:21Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Well **elucinator** , since you’re demanding an answer to “demilitarized”, I demand an answer to my question above. You’ll need to be more specific, I didn’t really notice a question so much as an outpouring of contempt for my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1217 "2010-06-12T15:28:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You’ll need to be more specific, I didn’t really notice a question so much as an outpouring of contempt for my opinion. No contempt at all, I’m trying to understand. I just want to know–Why CAN’T I do any of the things I described? That’s exactly what the blockade runners did, and you support them. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1218 "2010-06-12T15:54:23Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > First you will have to point to any opinion I have expressed about “what really happened” before I will bother to present my “facts.” Beyond the pretty clear notion that all parties will spin any “evidence” to portray themselves in the best light and their opponents in the worst light while fans of one party or another will accept the words of those they favor while denying the words of those they don’t, I have not expressed an opinion. I infer from your comment that you are proving my point, since you have jumped to a conclusion that I have opinions about the event when I have not expressed any such opinion. [/QUOTE] If you think both sides are placing “spin” on the story then yes I would assume that you think i.e. your opinion is that both sides aren’t merely telling what happened as people that actually witnessed the event. We do know that the Israeli govt is spinning the event based upon their behavior i.e. the confiscating of all video and photos, doctoring auidio, and providing edited clips of information to support the narrative that they want to put out. I don’t see where the activists are doing this so I again ask you what supports your assertion of “spin” by both parties? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1219 "2010-06-12T17:08:38Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Well **elucinator** , since you’re demanding an answer to “demilitarized” Interesting, too, as it wasn’t any Doper who made the proposal that he’s challenging. But he’s now referenced it, what, a half dozen times? A dozen? Also interesting is that he’d have no truck with such a plan (whatever it was exactly) because it would leave the Palestinians at the mercy of the Israelis. And that’s just not the way peace can be won! Except for Israel. Israel should let itself be attacked as often as Hamas wants. And all the while we can claim that Israel must be the “first” to accept an attack and not respond (while we ignore all those other times it’s done just that) and that Israel must finally offer peace even in the face of violence (and ignore all those other times it did just that, too). Maybe Netanyahu should take a page out of Elucidator’s book and declare himself a Friend of Palestine. After all, as Elucidator has told us, his call for Israel to allow endless war against itI is not just in the service of peace, it’s made because he is a friend of Israel. Odd, of course, that once you strip the rhetoric away, the actions he’s calling for amount to a perpetual war against Israel, with no defense, until groups like Hamas get bored of it. But he would never ask the Palestinians to disarm, because that would mean they were defenseless and what kind of a monster do you take him for? Truly, nations are lucky to have such friends. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/1220 "2010-06-12T17:12:41Z")
Just so he lets it go, I’ll try to define demilitarized: No army. That’s it. It’s that simple. And don’t start with that “Well what about police” nonsense. Police =/= army, therefore there is a police force. Happy now? Because it’s your turn. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=60) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=62)