# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/141 "2010-05-31T15:51:33Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > This is exactly how selective blockades, which is apparently Israel’s justification for stopping maritime traffic sailing directly to Gaza, are supposed to work. Every ship gets stopped. If they have contraband aboard, said contraband is confiscated. If not, they are allowed through. Also false to facts. [ > [@](#): > > Art. 23. Each High Contracting Party shall allow the free passage of all consignments of medical and hospital stores and objects necessary for religious worship intended only for civilians of another High Contracting Party, even if the latter is its adversary. It shall likewise permit the free passage of all consignments of essential foodstuffs, clothing and tonics intended for children under fifteen, expectant mothers and maternity cases. > > The obligation of a High Contracting Party to allow the free passage of the consignments indicated in the preceding paragraph is subject to the condition that this Party is satisfied that there are no serious reasons > for fearing: > > (a) that the consignments may be diverted from their destination, > (b) that the control may not be effective, or > (c) that a definite advantage may accrue to the military efforts or economy of the enemy through the substitution of the above-mentioned consignments for goods which would otherwise be provided or produced by the enemy or through the release of such material, services or facilities as would otherwise be required for the production of such goods. > > The Power which allows the passage of the consignments indicated in the first paragraph of this Article may make such permission conditional on the distribution to the persons benefited thereby being made under the local supervision of the Protecting Powers. > > Such consignments shall be forwarded as rapidly as possible, and the Power which permits their free passage shall have the right to prescribe the technical arrangements under which such passage is allowed. ]([http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/6756482d86146898c125641e004aa3c5](http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/6756482d86146898c125641e004aa3c5)) Can we please have this debate without the need to fact-check every statement? Because that’d be nice. > [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Most of Lebanon was involved in the Israeli campaign Fiction. And you claim was not that most of it was “involved”, but that it was “flattened”. Again, I can’t make you write things that are true and not use fictions to try to sell your narrative, but it’s kind of silly to rely on fiction to prop up your rhetoric and then complain when the facts are pointed out. > [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Earlier, you claimed “only a portion of Lebanon was involved in the fighting”. This is categorically false, as the map of locations bombed by Israel found [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Locations_bombed_Aug13_no_fact_box.jpg) clearly shows. This is the exact problem I’m talking about. When faced with the facts, you have immediately posted something that is fiction and then, incomprehensibly, provided a cite showing that your claim is fictional while pretending that it proves your claim. To say nothing of the fact that your wikipedia map has dubious grounding, at best, even while it debunks your claim. Someone draws a map, that map debunks your claim, and you still provide it as support. Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/142 "2010-05-31T15:51:52Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > You don’t know this at all. You have absolutely no information that is different from anyone else’s in order to hold this idea. The only evidence available is that some IDF soldiers boarded a ship and a dozen or so people were killed with many more wounded. > > You don’t know the sequence of events. You don’t know if the people on the ship armed themselves with crowbars and knives before or after the IDF soldiers started shooting. You don’t know if the difference between this ship and the others is the presence of 1 or 2 extra-aggressive soldiers. > > You know nothing at all beyond what I just laid out, yet you seem to be proposing the idea that: > > 1. Peace-protesters who are actually not into peace but are into war laid in wait to kill IDF soldiers > 2. They did this to precipitate a violent incident to get their scars to make Israel look bad. > 3. The super well-trained Israeli forces took the bait. > 4. Instead of scars you have a massacre. > > Why isn’t it more reasonable to propose: > > 1. Peace-protesters are actually peace protesters and did not come explicitly armed. > 2. Prior to embarking on their mission, well-trained soldiers had their heads filled with rhetoric about terrorist sympathizers on the boats. > 3. They engage in a night time raid (Why the fuck was it at night anyway?) and the soldiers misinterpret protesters’ behavior or think a camera is actually a gun. > 4. Start shooting, protesters retreat and arm themselves, some soldiers get hurt and protesters get killed. > > Both scenarios are based on the same exact data except you had to add in the super-secret real reason for the flotilla. The part you are missing is that my comments were prefaced with the word “appears”. In short, based on the best information we presently have, this is what they “appear” to be doing. Should the fact afterwards turn out to be different, I will of course change my mind. Right now, your counterfactual “appears” to be a pure fantasy - as does your paraphrase of my post. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/143 "2010-05-31T15:55:56Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Fiction. > And you claim was not that most of it was “involved”, but that it was “flattened”. > Again, I can’t make you write things that are true and not use fictions to try to sell your narrative, but it’s kind of silly to rely on fiction to prop up your rhetoric and then complain when the facts are pointed out. You claimed: [QUOTE=FinnAgain] “A portion of Lebanon was involved in the fighting and even then the damage was comparatively limited in most locations.” [/quote] The map of Israeli airstrikes earlier posted clearly shows that this is false. Please try to salvage some credibility and admit that you were badly mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/144 "2010-05-31T15:56:03Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > You don’t know this at all. You have absolutely no information that is different from anyone else’s in order to hold this idea. The only evidence available is that some IDF soldiers boarded a ship and a dozen or so people were killed with many more wounded. > > You don’t know the sequence of events. You don’t know if the people on the ship armed themselves with crowbars and knives before or after the IDF soldiers started shooting. You don’t know if the difference between this ship and the others is the presence of 1 or 2 extra-aggressive soldiers. > > You know nothing at all beyond what I just laid out, yet you seem to be proposing the idea that: > > 1. Peace-protesters who are actually not into peace but are into war laid in wait to kill IDF soldiers > 2. They did this to precipitate a violent incident to get their scars to make Israel look bad. > 3. The super well-trained Israeli forces took the bait. > 4. Instead of scars you have a massacre. > > Why isn’t it more reasonable to propose: > > 1. Peace-protesters are actually peace protesters and did not come explicitly armed. > 2. Prior to embarking on their mission, well-trained soldiers had their heads filled with rhetoric about terrorist sympathizers on the boats. > 3. They engage in a night time raid (Why the fuck was it at night anyway?) and the soldiers misinterpret protesters’ behavior or think a camera is actually a gun. > 4. Start shooting, protesters retreat and arm themselves, some soldiers get hurt and protesters get killed. > > Both scenarios are based on the same exact data except you had to add in the super-secret real reason for the flotilla. Why would the peace protesters need arms _at all_, if they were in fact, peaceful protesters interested only in delivering what they perceive as needed humanitarian goods to Gaza? I mean, this wasn’t a surprise excursion to avoid the blockade. It was announced awhile ago, and Israel repeatedly stated that they would stop any attempt to circumvent the blockade, and these protesters (or whomever they were, as I am not firmly convinced that their intent wasn’t incitement rather than true altruism) just went ahead and tried it anyway. And then Israel stopped them. Just like they _said_ they would back when they warned this movement not to go forward with their intentions. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/145 "2010-05-31T16:00:39Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > It is not a “dumb talking point.” The point of the inspection was to determine whether they had weapons. This is debatable. It seems to me more likely that the point of the ‘inspection’ was to stop the ships from reaching Gaza. Is there any credible evidence that they would have let the ships through under any circumstances, or are you just assuming that? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/146 "2010-05-31T16:03:15Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > I think in the present example the smart approach for the Israeli government would have been to approach the convoy, closer to shore, with a small civilian vessel–the navy ships keeping their distance–bearing an unarmed civilian inspection team, and _request permission_ to come aboard and look at the cargo. They would never have been allowed on board, even by extremely peaceful protesters. I expected the ships to be intercepted by Israeli military, and using naval commandos for this makes perfect sense. That’s the kind of situation they’re trained for (amongst others, of course, but naval commandos aren’t used solely for war operations) and are they’re the most likely (in theory) to conduct such an operation successfully and without bloodshed. I believe too that enforcing the embargo required these vessels to be intercepted (even moreso than a random ship, given that it was a largely covered PR operation). Whether or not the embargo itself is acceptable (especially since it’s so extensive) is another matter entirely. > [@wmfellows](#): > > No he’s not. He may be wrong (I’m not sure, not enough facts - hard facts - to go on yet), but Alessan is not a rabid extremist. Seconded. (Although I’m a bit surprised that he’s finding weird that citizens would distance themselves from their government “employees”. Plenty of people don’t identify themselves with their government, and doing so generally has bad results : “my country right or wrong”, as someone said) ETA : was this ship boarded _after_ the other ones had been? (making people onboard more likely to “prepare a defense”). I wasn’t aware of the story before I opened this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/147 "2010-05-31T16:07:39Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Except the eyewitness report of a journalist present. But we can disregard that if it makes certain conclusion easier. You mean the one **Alessan** posted in post #62? The journalist that was supposedly at the raid but nothing in the linked account says anything like that? Now that i think about it, who cares except people looking to make excuses for the IDF’s actions. The force used on these people is inexcusable. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/148 "2010-05-31T16:10:31Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > **TWEEEEEET!** > > Enough with the personal remarks. I realize that this is an emotional issue, but it does not get easier to discuss when it is filled with snide comments and innuendo. > > Stop it. > > [/Moderating] > [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Oh dear, another embarrassing 'tard rage. > . . . > You are a liar. > [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Um, no. Your ass is for shitting out of, not talking with. > [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Oh dear, another embarrassing 'tard rage. > . . . > You are a liar. This is a Warning to knock it off, now. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/149 "2010-05-31T16:15:15Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Now that i think about it, who cares except people looking to make excuses for the IDF’s actions. The force used on these people is inexcusable. Wait - are you saying that you don’t care what actually happened? ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/150 "2010-05-31T16:15:33Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Why would the peace protesters need arms _at all_, if they were in fact, peaceful protesters interested only in delivering what they perceive as needed humanitarian goods to Gaza? > > I mean, this wasn’t a surprise excursion to avoid the blockade. It was announced awhile ago, and Israel repeatedly stated that they would stop any attempt to circumvent the blockade, and these protesters (or whomever they were, as I am not firmly convinced that their intent wasn’t incitement rather than true altruism) just went ahead and tried it anyway. > > And then Israel stopped them. Just like they _said_ they would back when they warned this movement not to go forward with their intentions. Arms? You mean: Shit-they-put-together-from-what-was-available-on-board. If I was under the impression that a bunch of soldiers had come onto my ship and started shooting, I might pick up whatever was lying around as well. For instance, things that might be on a passenger ship: crowbar, metal pole, knife, alcohol (Raki probably burns pretty well), bottles, or toys I was bringing in for a Palestinian kid. If I was below deck, I might even get everyone around me to search and put these things together to make one last ditch effort to protect my people from the invaders. In other words, perfectly reasonable weapons available, which were not stored on board as part of some super-secret-make-Israel-look-bad-strategy. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/151 "2010-05-31T16:18:06Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > You claimed: The truth. A portion of Lebanon was involved in the fighting and even then the damage was comparatively limited in most locations. Not that your pretty map with big drawings, that still debunks your claims, is a slam dunk or anything. The actual fighting went on (rather obviously) where Hezbollah forces fought Israeli ground troops. Your drawn-map doesn’t contradict that and, even then, only claims that there were highly limited incidents in the north. What verification you have for your wikipedia map is currently unclear. Why you’re citing the Samidoun Media Team as objective fact is even less clear. Especially since they refer to Israel proper as “occupied Palestine”. That’s generally a clue. There were military targets hit in the north that we know about. But the north as a region was not touched by the fighting, which was indeed limited to the south. Operation Litani never progressed to the north. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/152 "2010-05-31T16:20:28Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The part you are missing is that my comments were prefaced with the word “appears”. > > In short, based on the best information we presently have, this is what they “appear” to be doing. > > Should the fact afterwards turn out to be different, I will of course change my mind. > > Right now, your counterfactual “appears” to be a pure fantasy - as does your paraphrase of my post. My problem is with “appears”. It doesn’t “appear” like your proposal at all. I just have this nagging doubt that their approach was to pull knives to get killed. You seem to think that it “appears” that way. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/153 "2010-05-31T16:22:59Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Arms? You mean: Shit-they-put-together-from-what-was-available-on-board. If I was under the impression that a bunch of soldiers had come onto my ship and started shooting, I might pick up whatever was lying around as well. For instance, things that might be on a passenger ship: crowbar, metal pole, knife, alcohol (Raki probably burns pretty well), bottles, or toys I was bringing in for a Palestinian kid. If I was below deck, I might even get everyone around me to search and put these things together to make one last ditch effort to protect my people from the invaders. > > In other words, perfectly reasonable weapons available, which were not stored on board as part of some super-secret-make-Israel-look-bad-strategy. This article from cnn [Israeli military gives version of flotilla incident - CNN.com](http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/05/31/gaza.flotilla.israeli.raid/index.html?hpt=T1) presents the Israeli side of the matter. If you’re willing to give equal consideration to a view opposing your own, it sure sounds like to me that they were laying in wait for the Israeli attack, at least to some degree. Again, this wasn’t some surprise. The protestors said they were coming. Israel said don’t or else. The protestors came anyway (surely they weren’t so blase to ignore Israel’s warning…right?). Israel’s “or else” happened. PR fury ensues. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/154 "2010-05-31T16:25:37Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > You mean the one **Alessan** posted in post #62? The journalist that was supposedly at the raid but nothing in the linked account says anything like that? What “the linked account”? We’ve had an account linked by someone who was actually there. That seems pretty linked. Yishai is also an award winning journalist with quite a solid reputation, if you’re alleging he made the whole thing up, that’s a pretty serious charge. Do you have substantiation? > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Now that i think about it, who cares People interested in the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/155 "2010-05-31T16:28:09Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Israel’s “or else” happened. So the killings were OK’d by Netanyahu? ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/156 "2010-05-31T16:28:55Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > The truth. A portion of Lebanon was involved in the fighting and even then the damage was comparatively limited in most locations. Not that your pretty map with big drawings, that still debunks your claims, is a slam dunk or anything. > The actual fighting went on (rather obviously) where Hezbollah forces fought Israeli ground troops. Your drawn-map doesn’t contradict that and, even then, only claims that there were highly limited incidents in the north. What verification you have for your wikipedia map is currently unclear. Why you’re citing the Samidoun Media Team as objective fact is even less clear. Especially since they refer to Israel proper as “occupied Palestine”. > > That’s generally a clue. > > There were military targets hit in the north that we know about. But the north as a region was not touched by the fighting, which was indeed limited to the south. Operation Litani never progressed to the north. Ah, old faithful, the _ad hominem_. Can you point to a single claim made by the map that is incorrect? No? Thought not. You could have saved yourself a lot of time posting that and just admitted you were wrong when you claimed fighting was limited to a portion of the country. Even the most northerly towns in Lebanon were bombed multiple times. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/157 "2010-05-31T16:31:08Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > So the killings were OK’d by Netanyahu? No, Netanyahu didn’t want the commandos to attack, but Obama insisted. In a fit of rage, Netanyahu canceled his meeting with Obama. Seriously though, who knows? Perhaps its safe to assume so. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/158 "2010-05-31T16:34:17Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Wait - are you saying that you don’t care what actually happened? Sure, I would like to know the sequence of events. I would like to know if what appeared to you to be the case is actually true. It would affect my point of view to some extent. At this point I don’t care because no useful information is going to come out anytime soon, and I doubt I will ever know the real sequence of events. Knowing that I will probably never really know, I can judge the result. What I know of the result is that I really don’t think there is a sequence of events that led to the loss of maybe 20 lives that isn’t filled with mistakes. I view these mistakes as the IDF’s responsibility. They fired the guns. The result is inexcusable. I see things this way regardless of the Ghandiness levels of the protesters’ tactics. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/159 "2010-05-31T16:39:54Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Sure, I would like to know the sequence of events. I would like to know if what appeared to you to be the case is actually true. It would affect my point of view to some extent. At this point I don’t care because no useful information is going to come out anytime soon, and I doubt I will ever know the real sequence of events. > > Knowing that I will probably never really know, I can judge the result. What I know of the result is that I really don’t think there is a sequence of events that led to the loss of maybe 20 lives that isn’t filled with mistakes. I view these mistakes as the IDF’s responsibility. They fired the guns. The result is inexcusable. I see things this way regardless of the Ghandiness levels of the protesters’ tactics. So you are telling me that even if the facts clearly proved that the deaths were deliberately planned in advance as a provocation by the militants (and mind you, I’m not saying it - I’m simply assuming it for the purpose of the question) - even then - you would still sympathize with them and fault the Israeli commandos? ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/160 "2010-05-31T16:44:50Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > What “the linked account”? We’ve had an account linked by someone who was actually there. That seems pretty linked. Yishai is also an award winning journalist with quite a solid reputation, if you’re alleging he made the whole thing up, that’s a pretty serious charge. Do you have substantiation? Like I said, perhaps I missed a sentence but I did not see where it said he was actually there. I am assuming he was either on a helicopter or a boat nearby. I think he reported what the soldiers told him and I sincerely doubt he was on the _Mavi Mamara_. That really isn’t the type of evidence I prefer, but if he was on those ropes getting pelted or in the chopper looking down on soldiers getting pelted right from the get-go then I appreciate the information. Do the events described by that reporter make it seem reasonable that more than a dozen people were killed? Not at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=9)