# Turkish flagged vessel attack \[What if?--becomes What now?\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765 "2010-05-25T23:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/161 "2010-05-31T16:45:36Z")
CNN is showing video right now where you can see the Israeli soldiers being attacked as the rappel to the deck of the ship. The video isn’t clear enough to see any weapons, but they were clearly attacked and beaten. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/162 "2010-05-31T16:47:07Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I’m sure the Israelis will try hard to lose the next battle badly, and so regain your support. 😉 The trouble is that Israel doesn’t really do battles, dear, they’re more one-sided than that. Massacres, that sort of thing. Difficult to lose one of those. This fellah was an ambassador of HMG: [http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/](http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/) > [@](#): > > I have just spoken to the FCO press spokesman. The line on the legality of the Israeli attack is “We are not getting into that, especially when the details are unclear.” They are waiting for “clarification from our Embassy in Tel Aviv”. > > That is a terrible reaction from the coailition government to its first test on human rights. The detail can make no difference to the fact that the Israelis attacked foreign flagged vessels in international waters. That is a priori illegal. Where the hell are FCO legal advisers? Is this government ignoring them just like New Labour? > [@](#): > > **I can tell you categorically, as a former Head of the FCO Maritime Section, that a Turkish flagged ship on the high seas is Turkish territory. This Israeli attack was undeniably illegal.** > > Having seen so many illegal wars lately, you might be interested to know that in international law Turkey could now with perfect legality declare itself to be at war with Israel. I do not advocate that, but after the fake justification over Iraq I thought you might be interested to see what a genuine causus belli looks like. > [@](#): > > **The aid flotilla had actually obeyed the Israeli Navy’s order to turn away from Gaza when the ships were boarded**. It is worth stating that the boarding of the ships - which were not in Israeli territorial waters - was in itself an illegal act. That is crucial as we wait for the Israelis’ usual lies about the incident, which will predictable claim their heavily armed elite commandos were attacked by the unarmed peace protestors. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/163 "2010-05-31T16:48:18Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Ah, old faithful, the _ad hominem_. Please learn the definition of the logical fallacy you’re claiming. Pointing out that a group is not credible is not an ‘ad hominem’ fallacy when the issue at hand is precisely their credibility. You have a map with pretty circles drawn on it, and you are demanding that we disprove something for which no proof has been given beyond circles drawn on a map by a group with no credibility on the issue. > [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > fighting was limited to a portion of the country. It was, as the facts show. The north was not subjected to bombardment like the south or parts of Beiruit were, nor was it subject to invasion as the south to the Litani was. Which, of course, doesn’t address your original fiction that kicked off this tangent: you claimed that ‘the whole of Lebanon’ was ‘flattened’. That is simply not true by any stretch of the imagination, but since you won’t retract your claim, I’m not sure there’s much purpose in me pointing it out more. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/164 "2010-05-31T16:52:12Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > The trouble is that Israel doesn’t really do battles, dear, they’re more one-sided than that. Massacres, that sort of thing. Difficult to lose one of those. On what planet is this true? 😃 If anything, the history of Israel is exceptionally rich in battles. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/165 "2010-05-31T16:54:06Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > So you are telling me that even if the facts clearly proved that the deaths were deliberately planned in advance as a provocation by the militants (and mind you, I’m not saying it - I’m simply assuming it for the purpose of the question) - even then - you would still sympathize with them and fault the Israeli commandos? If the weight of the evidence made any reasonable person believe that there were actual militants on the ship, that they planned to wield weapons to provoke an Israeli response, and they were actually succeeding in maiming and killing the commandos then I would not sympathize with them. I would see them as responsible for this event and want their organization disbanded with the planners and leaders arrested. I also hope that the individuals in the IDF responsible for planning and executing this massacre are arrested and put on trial, any soldiers that made deadly mistakes be punished and UN control be placed over shipments into and out of Gaza with UN security council guidelines on what is permissible for entry and exit. It’s apparent from the results here that maybe the IDF can’t handle the job. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/166 "2010-05-31T16:56:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > CNN is showing video right now where you can see the Israeli soldiers being attacked as the rappel to the deck of the ship. The video isn’t clear enough to see any weapons, but they were clearly attacked and beaten. I saw that too but I don’t know at what point during the sequence of events that video was taken. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/167 "2010-05-31T17:00:53Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I am assuming he was either on a helicopter or a boat nearby. You can observe pretty well from a helicopter. But as it’s a translation into English from the Hebrew, a Hebrew speaker’s recounting of what the original article stated passes muster. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Do the events described by that reporter make it seem reasonable that more than a dozen people were killed? Of course. If you attack soldiers with clubs and knives, try to capture them, etc… it’s a pretty reasonable assumption that you’re going to get shot. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/168 "2010-05-31T17:13:05Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Also false to facts. > > Can we please have this debate without the need to fact-check every statement? > Because that’d be nice. How is anything I said “false to facts” because of what you just cited. Please explain instead of just dumping an article of unknown provenance and shouting “checkmate”. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/169 "2010-05-31T17:14:59Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > My government is responsible for protecting me from potential threats, not just proven ones. Which is a license to attack anyone and everyone on Earth, including other Israelis since everyone is a potential threat. That’s the philosophy of a predator or paranoid, not someone trying to defend themselves. Your attitude is the same as Bush’s; “We don’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud.” No need to check the facts; just attack. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/170 "2010-05-31T17:19:00Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > You can observe pretty well from a helicopter. But as it’s a translation into English from the Hebrew, a Hebrew speaker’s recounting of what the original article stated passes muster. > > Of course. If you attack soldiers with clubs and knives, try to capture them, etc… it’s a pretty reasonable assumption that you’re going to get shot. I’m not “thrilled” about the whole thing, but yeah, I’m starting to lean towards the theory that this mess was initiated and orchestrated with the intent of making the commandos fight, and someone somewhere was hoping some people would be killed, to make some sort of point. Should the Israelis have boarded a ship in international waters? I’d say no. However, once they were on board, let them do their search. let them do their inspection. File a formal complaint later. You don’t fight them unless you WANT someone killed. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/171 "2010-05-31T17:36:48Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > How is anything I said “false to facts” Okay, one last time: was the whole of Lebanon flattened? No. That isn’t true. You said it, but it still isn’t true. But never mind, this thread isn’t about the 2006 war and if you’re going to maintain that the entirety of Lebanon was bombed to rubble in 2006, I can’t stop you. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/172 "2010-05-31T17:37:18Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I’m not “thrilled” about the whole thing, but yeah, I’m starting to lean towards the theory that this mess was initiated and orchestrated with the intent of making the commandos fight, and someone somewhere was hoping some people would be killed, to make some sort of point. Should the Israelis have boarded a ship in international waters? I’d say no. However, once they were on board, let them do their search. let them do their inspection. File a formal complaint later. You don’t fight them unless you WANT someone killed. Sounds a tiny bit biased, don’t you think? I mean, what a moral coward one has to be to go to the extreme and accuse the dead people of planning it ahead and, in the same breath, give the killers a pass. But, I guess if the story of “they were thrwoing stones” worked I really do’t see why “they had sticks and knives” would not. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/173 "2010-05-31T17:43:47Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Okay, one last time: was the whole of Lebanon flattened? > No. That isn’t true. You said it, but it still isn’t true. > > But never mind, this thread isn’t about the 2006 war and if you’re going to maintain that the entirety of Lebanon was bombed to rubble in 2006, I can’t stop you. 😕 I haven’t said word one about Lebanon. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/174 "2010-05-31T17:56:14Z")
Good old DEBKAFile: [Why was Israeli raider force unprepared for violent resistance?](http://debka.com/article/8824/) > [@](#): > > Any Israeli police officer dealing with Palestinian rioters knows that the first rule is never to get separated from the main force. The Shayatet 6 elite troops lacked this experience. > This error was compounded by the planners seriously underestimating expected resistance and sending the men in armed only with paintballs and pistols with orders to shoot only if their lives were at risk. They did open fire, but only after half a dozen of their number were badly hurt. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/175 "2010-05-31T17:58:02Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I’m starting to lean towards the theory that this mess was initiated and orchestrated with the intent of making the commandos fight, and someone somewhere was hoping some people would be killed, to make some sort of point. It seems rather likely that it was. The action itself was a political protest/PR move, and at least some “peace activists” decided to attack the commandos who were boarding their vessel. It seems beyond the pale that people attacked armed commandos with the expectation that violence would _not_ result. > [@SteveG1](#): > > Should the Israelis have boarded a ship in international waters? I’d say no. However, once they were on board, I’d agree that they shouldn’t have, but I’m not convinced by the blithe claims that it was necessarily illegal. [ > [@](#): > > SECTION II : METHODS OF WARFARE > > Blockade > > 1. A blockade shall be declared and notified to all belligerents and neutral States. > > 2. The declaration shall specify the commencement, duration, location, and extent of the blockade and the period within which vessels of neutral States may leave the blockaded coastline. > > 3. A blockade must be effective. The question whether a blockade is effective is a question of fact. > > 4. The force maintaining the blockade may be stationed at a distance determined by military requirements. > > 5. A blockade may be enforced and maintained by a combination of legitimate methods and means of warfare provided this combination does not result in acts inconsistent with the rules set out in this document. > > 6. Merchant vessels believed on reasonable grounds to be breaching a blockade may be captured. Merchant vessels which, after prior warning, clearly resist capture may be attacked. ]([http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce](http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce)) [ > [@](#): > > 1. Neutral merchant vessels are subject to capture outside neutral waters if they are engaged in any of the activities referred to in paragraph 67 or if it is determined as a result of visit and search or by other means, that they: > […] > (f) are breaching or attempting to breach a blockade. ]([http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce](http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce)) [ > [@](#): > > Neutral merchant vessels > 67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they: > (a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture; ]([http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce](http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce)) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/176 "2010-05-31T18:05:13Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > 😕 I haven’t said word one about Lebanon. Ah, you are correct, I had your argument confused with Captain Ridley. Don’t know how I confused that, ah well. Anyways, the false-to-facts claim you made was about how the enforcement of a blockade and the distribution of consignments is “supposed to work.” I proved that you were wrong by citing the actual law on the matter that directly addressed and rebutted your claim. Your argument that it was “an article of unknown provenance” was an absurdity, as calling the 4th Geneva Convention a document whose source is, in any way, in question? Well… it’s rather ridiculous. As it claiming that when the 4th GC explicitly states how consignments are to be distributed, that it doesn’t directly address your contrary claims about how it’s supposed to happen. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/177 "2010-05-31T18:43:46Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Sounds a tiny bit biased, don’t you think? > > I mean, what a moral coward one has to be to go to the extreme and accuse the dead people of planning it ahead and, in the same breath, give the killers a pass. But, I guess if the story of “they were thrwoing stones” worked I really do’t see why “they had sticks and knives” would not. Moral coward? Never been called that before. These were armed soldiers. What sort of MORON would attack them with a stick or a knife? If they had simply complied, they might have been detained for a while or maybe arrested. But they would still be alive. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/178 "2010-05-31T18:53:36Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I think I’ll put this conversation on hold until the grownups arrive to talk. If by “grown-ups” you mean the Israel Can Do No Wrong Brigade, no doubt they’ll be along shortly. Meanwhile, fuck Israel, its murderous practices and the International Community that lacks the balls to put an end to them. RIP all of those who gave their lives trying to helps the Gazans. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/179 "2010-05-31T18:57:07Z")
Unless the video is completely out of context, the Israeli soldiers clearly had reason to fear for their lives. One had been thrown overboard, and another had been tossed 30’ onto the deck. The latest video clearly shows groups of multiple “peace activists” bashing Israeli soldiers with iron rods. I’ll wait for the experts to weigh in on the legality of the boarding, but once onboard, I can’t see that it was smart to go after them like they did. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765/180 "2010-05-31T19:08:54Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Moral coward? Never been called that before. These were armed soldiers. What sort of MORON would attack them with a stick or a knife? If they had simply complied, they might have been detained for a while or maybe arrested. But they would still be alive. Many of the people fighting may have had no idea that their side had initiated anything (both IDF and protesters). Many of the people fighting may have thought that the other side was going to kill them so they fought back with everything they had. Some of the people fighting had pistols and the other side had jack shit. Many of the people that needlessly died may have thought they were defending themselves from wildly shooting IDF soldiers. The IDF fucked up, pure and simple. The protesters who started fighting also fucked up pure and simple. Everything after that is making the best decision in a bad situation. But I like your analysis better, judging from your past couple of posts you buy the idea that a bunch of morons planned to initiate a violent protest and successfully manipulated highly trained IDF commandos into going for it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-flagged-vessel-attack-what-if-becomes-what-now/540765.md?page=10)