# Turkish Membership of the EU, outline the positives **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2015, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-membership-of-the-eu-outline-the-positives/723402 "2015-06-24T22:08:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-membership-of-the-eu-outline-the-positives/723402/1 "2015-06-24T22:08:16Z")
I’ve been reading about Turkeys accession negotiations to join the EU, and I’m skeptical, considering the eastern half of Turkey is very poor, accession would mean they would eventually get Visa free travel to anywhere in the EU to work and live, and most of them would come to Western Europe to work. But I’m open to changing my mind on the subject, but I’m at a stretch as to what the Turkish could do to bring positive change or contribution to the European Union. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-membership-of-the-eu-outline-the-positives/723402/2 "2015-06-24T22:16:18Z")
It could be a good way to fully integrate Turkey into Western secular democracy. It could also be a huge mistake. It all depends on how grand lay your Euro-idealism. ---
**Author:** ![Construct](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Construct](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Construct)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-membership-of-the-eu-outline-the-positives/723402/3 "2015-06-24T22:50:07Z")
Yeah, giving tens of millions of people whose only relation to Europe is a tiny toehold conquered via warfare and who aren’t part of the European cultural tradition free and permanent access to Europe is surely a good idea. Diversity is our strength and everyone knows the concepts that comprise the Western way of life, such as freedom of religion, non-violence and constitutional republics, are very important to Muslims. The Muslims may have been stopped at the border of France and then at the gates of Vienna, by the grace of God, the third time will be charm. They have a force more powerful than any army – they have millions of leftists desperate to signal their support for ‘human rights’ and Islam on their side. If you don’t agree that Europe needs some cultural enrichment from people who earn 10K/year and whose polity was in near-continuous decline for three centuries, you’re obviously Islamophobic and probably also racist. /s ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-membership-of-the-eu-outline-the-positives/723402/4 "2015-06-24T23:05:59Z")
I’ve got news for you, most Turks care about getting a job, not recreating the Ottoman Empire, plus, most Turkish women are beautiful ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-membership-of-the-eu-outline-the-positives/723402/5 "2015-06-24T23:36:38Z")
They wouldn’t be the lowest per capita GDP in the EU. They have a higher fertility rate (although only right around replacement) and shrinking populations are are issue within the EU. At $1.5 Trillion total GDP it would add about 8% to the size of the joint EU economy. That’s a decent expansion to the markets covered by the free trade provisions. For the Islamophobes, they are already seeing heavy immigration of Muslims from countries that don’t have Turkey’s secular and democratic tradition. Which fits better with the cultures they are so worried about protecting? Most of the bigger military powers in Europe are already tied to Turkey by NATO. This brings security issues that already affect the EU into the EU structure directly. More Black Sea resorts for holiday within the EU free travel area. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-membership-of-the-eu-outline-the-positives/723402/6 "2015-06-25T00:00:43Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > It could be a good way to fully integrate Turkey into Western secular democracy. > > It could also be a huge mistake. It all depends on how grand lay your Euro-idealism. Haven’t they been a (admittedly shaky) Democracy since the fifties? That’s longer than us in Spain or Portugal. 70+ million people market. Possibly bringing some stability to their neighbours in the Middle East, since war tends to be bad for business. Good tourist destination. > [@Construct](#): > > Yeah, giving tens of millions of people whose only relation to Europe is a tiny toehold conquered via warfare and who aren’t part of the European cultural tradition free and permanent access to Europe is surely a good idea. That’s a bit unfair. We’ve been at war with Turkey since the middle ages as much as we’ve been at war with each other. That’s a great tradition. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-membership-of-the-eu-outline-the-positives/723402/7 "2015-06-25T00:16:22Z")
The proposed positives of Turkey’s membership into the EU are usually listed in the same way as in this article: [an article listing the for and against](http://www.debatingeurope.eu/focus/infobox-arguments-for-and-against-turkeys-eu-membership/#.VYtAmflViko). 5 years ago I might have argued vehemently for the positives of Turkey’s inclusion in the EU. Now I don’t see why Turkey should bother with membership to the EU except maybe to get whatever benefits it can out of continuing to flirt with the idea. After all [a minority of Turks view membership in the EU positively](http://www.todayszaman.com/diplomacy_turkish-support-for-eu-membership-on-decline-opinion-divided-on-nato_326761.html), [Turkish democracy has survived the ego of Erdogan while showing just how strong and healthy it is](http://time.com/3912470/the-election-loss-for-turkeys-erdogan-is-a-victory-for-democracy/), its economy is growing and diversifying (although much more slowly than in years past), and it is learning to recognize its Kurdish minority as having their own identity while making gains, slowly, toward peace with the PKK. They are doing all of this without the EU. It almost seems like all the predicted benefits of joining the EU are occurring without having joined the EU. So there is no need to bother. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-membership-of-the-eu-outline-the-positives/723402/8 "2015-06-25T01:03:16Z")
Don’t you have to join the Eurozone to join the EU now? If I were Turkey (and I can’t be, since I’m a person not a country), there’s no way I would join the Eurozone. ---
**Author:** ![PlaceboTarget](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/placebotarget/32/1073_2.png) [@PlaceboTarget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlaceboTarget)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-membership-of-the-eu-outline-the-positives/723402/9 "2015-06-25T03:39:43Z")
Turky has a well functioning economy and it could provide a young workforce to an aging Europe. I am for Turkey’s accession to EU but the Union is influenced by too many political factors to realize the advantages of having Turkey as one of its members. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-membership-of-the-eu-outline-the-positives/723402/10 "2015-06-25T04:30:19Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > It could be a good way to fully integrate Turkey into Western secular democracy. > > It could also be a huge mistake. It all depends on how grand lay your Euro-idealism. Turkey has been a democracy longer than a number European countries, not just the already mentioned Spain and Portugal, but all the former East Block countries and arguably Greece. > [@](#): > > **Construct** > Yeah, giving tens of millions of people whose only relation to Europe is a tiny toehold conquered via warfare and who aren’t part of the European cultural tradition free and permanent access to Europe is surely a good idea. Diversity is our strength and everyone knows the concepts that comprise the Western way of life, such as freedom of religion, non-violence and constitutional republics, are very important to Muslims. > > The Muslims may have been stopped at the border of France and then at the gates of Vienna, by the grace of God, the third time will be charm. They have a force more powerful than any army – they have millions of leftists desperate to signal their support for ‘human rights’ and Islam on their side. > > If you don’t agree that Europe needs some cultural enrichment from people who earn 10K/year and whose polity was in near-continuous decline for three centuries, you’re obviously Islamophobic and probably also racist. Bigoted claptrap and not even terribly original bigoted claptrap. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-membership-of-the-eu-outline-the-positives/723402/11 "2015-06-25T07:00:48Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Turkey has been a democracy longer than a number European countries, not just the already mentioned Spain and Portugal, but all the former East Block countries and arguably Greece. Is that including periods of military rule? Because Turkey appears to have had a coup as recently as 1980 which lasted until 1983 which would make it a longer-lasting continuous democracy than any Eastern Bloc country but shorter than Greece, Spain, or Portugal. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-membership-of-the-eu-outline-the-positives/723402/12 "2015-06-25T08:45:22Z")
Cannot think of many positives for Turkey. The time for Turkey to join the EU was 10 or so years ago, but since then the EU has been shown to be a big ponzi scheme\* and the Turkish economy has gone from strength to strength and the Turks have started towards the Gulf, C Asia and Far East, where the action is, not tired austerity ridden Europe. \*Yes I know thats not totally accurate, but the Great Recession and the Euro Debt crises has seriously eroded one of the EU’s attractions… the Economy. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-membership-of-the-eu-outline-the-positives/723402/13 "2015-06-26T04:25:44Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Turkey has been a democracy longer than a number European countries, not just the already mentioned Spain and Portugal, but all the former East Block countries and arguably Greece. Turkey suffers from [civil rights infractions](http://hyperallergic.com/217517/artist-who-got-turkish-president-fined-now-facing-four-years-in-jail/) not common among the other EU nations, and is, culturally-speaking, not entirely harmonious with the major players in the EU. As I said, it could be good or bad. There are obvious red flags to keep in mind. The EU is an outgrowth of post-WW2 idealism, and barely maintains usefulness as it is. Adding Turkey and its authoritarian-leaning president to the mix could be quite volatile. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-membership-of-the-eu-outline-the-positives/723402/14 "2015-06-27T19:34:21Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Don’t you have to join the Eurozone to join the EU now? If I were Turkey (and I can’t be, since I’m a person not a country), there’s no way I would join the Eurozone. Technically, and it’s not immediate as many members will adopt it but haven’t yet. But UK, Sweden, and Denmark at least are EU members who are unlikely to adopt the Euro anytime soon if at all (Norway and Iceland are not in the EU). Polling is around mid-5x% “NO” in Scandinavia, more strongly against in UK. Danish krone is pegged to the Euro though but allowed to opt-out. Andorra, Monaco, Vatican, and San Marino are non-EU members who are allowed to use it. They don’t make their own official coins except as collector’s items. Kosovo and Montenegro use it de facto. Getting rid of Erdoğan might help. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-membership-of-the-eu-outline-the-positives/723402/15 "2015-06-28T04:24:48Z")
In principle expanding the EU and collapsing barriers against travel and trade are always good things. At the present moment, it’s tough to see Turkish EU membership as a realistic possibility. On one side, letting Turkey in would bring an enormous Muslim population into the EU at a time when many European countries are already having with problems from radicalized Muslim individuals and a Muslim community that’s not integrating well. On the other side, the European Union’s financial situation continues to teeter on the brink of disaster and its political leadership seems unable to lead at all. Not exactly a situation that begs for a Turkish entrance. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-membership-of-the-eu-outline-the-positives/723402/16 "2015-06-28T08:51:26Z")
This was a distinct, much-talked-about possibility some five-ten years ago. These days, not so much. Mind you, the Turks themselves have clearly given up on the idea, and have, under Erdogan and Davutoglu, pivoted towards the Arab, Islamic, and “ex-Ottoman” world at large - with some success, I might add. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-membership-of-the-eu-outline-the-positives/723402/17 "2015-06-28T09:22:45Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Turkey suffers from [civil rights infractions](http://hyperallergic.com/217517/artist-who-got-turkish-president-fined-now-facing-four-years-in-jail/) not common among the other EU nations, you can read profitably about the current hungarian government and the other new ascension countries of the balkans before commenting next time. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-membership-of-the-eu-outline-the-positives/723402/18 "2015-06-28T12:57:47Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Mind you, the Turks themselves have clearly given up on the idea, and have, under Erdogan and Davutoglu, pivoted towards the Arab, Islamic, and “ex-Ottoman” world at large - with some success, I might add. Oh yes. There’s quite the thriving jihadist and refugee industry going on. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-membership-of-the-eu-outline-the-positives/723402/19 "2015-06-28T14:46:06Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Oh yes. There’s quite the thriving jihadist and refugee industry going on. He said that they have had some success pivoting toward the ex-Ottoman domains. He didn’t say whether it was improving things for Turkey! ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-membership-of-the-eu-outline-the-positives/723402/20 "2015-06-28T14:49:47Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Getting rid of Erdoğan might help. Look up the results of the June 7th election. This is basically done. Now he is just a noisemaker. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-membership-of-the-eu-outline-the-positives/723402.md?page=2)