# Turkish parliament authorizes military operations in Iraq **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 17, 2007, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-parliament-authorizes-military-operations-in-iraq/423085 "2007-10-17T20:54:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2007, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-parliament-authorizes-military-operations-in-iraq/423085/41 "2007-10-18T20:52:45Z")
:smack: 'luci! Totally got me there. -XT ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2007, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-parliament-authorizes-military-operations-in-iraq/423085/42 "2007-10-18T21:29:18Z")
[QUOTE=Lobohan] I hope that was hyperbole, because that might be the most degenerate statement I’ve heard on this board. [/QUOTE] Wow, you really should read a few more threads. While it’s an extreme position, there’s nothing particularly unusual about the statement that ‘war is always wrong’ - pacifism is a fairly well-documented point of view, and even if you make exceptions for self-defence, pre-emption of attacks and whatever, it’s still not that unreasonable to say that actual full-on invasion of another nations soverign territory is unnecessarily aggressive. For pretty much any invasion in history you can find groups who have moral objections, and in the modern world you’re unlikely to get blanket approval to carry out any invasion. So what it comes down to is usually “well, we feel that we have a right to invade, and no-one who disagrees is going to do anything to stop us, or else”. War is pretty much the breakdown of civilized relationships between nations, and as a result the rulebook is not only very thin, it’s not enforced. [QUOTE=sitnam] There is moral high ground though. Invading Japan in 1945 /= invading Cuba in 1898 [/QUOTE] Well, I’m pretty sure that the moral high ground didn’t help the Cubans much, since you can’t fortify it. Similarly, after Trinity the US didn’t really need it [QUOTE=Voltaire] God is always on the side of the big battalions [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2007, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-parliament-authorizes-military-operations-in-iraq/423085/43 "2007-10-18T22:00:55Z")
Interesting. Ignorance fought. I did not know that the NFZ restrictions were imposed by the successful side in the fight. Although, it’s not unusual. We defeated Japan and Germany, and prohibited some things there as well. When you roll over, you can expect certain restrictions placed on you… good or bad. However, we are looking at derailing this thread into a pointless discussion about the past, as opposed to discussing the potential for Turkish action in Iraq. I am curious if the Iraqi gov’t will ask the US military to help defend civilian areas, once the Turks kill some by accident? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2007, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-parliament-authorizes-military-operations-in-iraq/423085/44 "2007-10-19T18:20:23Z")
Whats special about the timing now? The PKK has been raiding eastern Turkey for decades, why didn’t they throw their hat in the ring with Bush’s coalition to begin with? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2007, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-parliament-authorizes-military-operations-in-iraq/423085/45 "2007-10-19T18:37:33Z")
[QUOTE=Sitnam] Whats special about the timing now? The PKK has been raiding eastern Turkey for decades, why didn’t they throw their hat in the ring with Bush’s coalition to begin with? [/QUOTE] Because the Kurds are not the Sunnies or the Shiites and Turkey’s got no truck with the latter two. Thus it would have been senseless for them to join the The Coalition Of The Unwilling. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2007, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-parliament-authorizes-military-operations-in-iraq/423085/46 "2007-10-20T02:50:07Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] Because the Kurds are not the Sunnies or the Shiites and Turkey’s got no truck with the latter two. Thus it would have been senseless for them to join the The Coalition Of The Unwilling. [/QUOTE] You misspelled “Willing”. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2007, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-parliament-authorizes-military-operations-in-iraq/423085/47 "2007-10-20T03:39:00Z")
> [@](#): > > 'luci! Totally got me there. That’s a problem with the Bush administration. You’ve got to dial the satire up to eleven in order to rise above the reality. ---
**Author:** ![buns3000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c89c15/32.png) [@buns3000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buns3000)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2007, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-parliament-authorizes-military-operations-in-iraq/423085/48 "2007-10-21T02:05:01Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] LTension doesn not equal cause for war. We had no real cause for war except the UN resolutions…and even that was pretty shakey. As for a relief when war broke out…I’m hoping you are being sarcastic here. In case you aren’t, I’d say it was a nightmare when war broke out…one for which we still haven’t woken up from. -XT [/QUOTE] That’s two whooshes in one fairly short thread. I’d suggest consulting your doctor about your irony deficency. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2007, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-parliament-authorizes-military-operations-in-iraq/423085/49 "2007-10-21T04:53:07Z")
[QUOTE=Tristan] You misspelled “Willing”. [/QUOTE] \*\*Point of fact, I most certainly didn’t: \*\* [**The Coalition Of The Unwilling. - Google Search**](http://www.google.com.do/search?q=The+Coalition+Of+The+Unwilling.&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a) \*\*Seriously, what’s keeping you from reality? Beyond blind jingoism of course. No Kreskin here, but as wannabe Kreskin, you should treat your day as such – day-dreams, hallucinations, or this Administration’s favorite.: slight of hand to so many already so predisposed prior to it already. Just sayin’…your posts don’t seem to take _facts_, or reality for that matter, into consideration (witness the no-fly zone mantra), what the **facts** are. Good luck with that. As I said priorly, up to my coxy with this particular “debate.” Sadly, although won by sheer common sense prior to Day One, it didn’t take an Einstein to predict the outcome…believe it or not, it is actually other **family and friends** that call me that. Not that I get lathered-up about it of course…guess they are sick of mine being right all the time. Like now. Say now, should I speak about my innate modesty? Guesstimate the OP would only be a few pages or so…\*\* ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2007, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-parliament-authorizes-military-operations-in-iraq/423085/50 "2007-10-21T04:55:52Z")
[QUOTE=buns3000] That’s two whooshes in one fairly short thread. I’d suggest consulting your doctor about your irony deficency. [/QUOTE] No need…you will note that in my response to you I caveatted my statement on the off chance you were speaking tongue in cheek. So…that’s only one whoosh. -XT ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2007, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-parliament-authorizes-military-operations-in-iraq/423085/51 "2007-10-22T19:09:57Z")
[PKK cross-border raid kills 17 Turkish soldiers; eight more may have been captured; U.S. tries to discourage Turkey from retaliation.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/22/AR2007102200746.html?hpid=topnews) ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-parliament-authorizes-military-operations-in-iraq/423085/52 "2007-10-26T12:47:01Z")
Turkey ‘invades’ huh… so what was it over 10 years ago when Turkish troops moved into Northern Iraq at the invitation of the Peshmerga to hunt the PKK? [Link](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/10/26/wturkey126.xml) > [@](#): > > The Turkish troops inside Iraq > By Tim Butcher in Hurmadada, Kurdish Iraq > Last Updated: 12:22pm BST 26/10/2007 > > It was tricky to tell who was the more surprised - the Turkish soldiers deployed 12 miles inside Iraq or The Daily Telegraph after stumbling across this apparent “proof’’ that the invasion of northern Iraq had already begun. > > For a second, both parties tried to look composed. A Turkish soldier swung his machine-gun around to look as nonchalant as is possible while wearing a helmet peeking out of the turret of an armoured car deployed on a combat patrol in enemy territory. > > And I fidgeted self-consciously with my camera aware that grabbing a picture could upset an already a fragile situation. > > As the atmosphere grew more fraught the only people truly relaxed were some nearby peshmerga, Kurdish troops from northern Iraq, for whom the presence of a Turkish main battle tank was clearly boringly routine. > > “No questions, no photographs, please leave,” said the Turkish officer once he had radioed through to his commanders that he had been rumbled by some journalists. > > It soon became apparent this mobile Turkish patrol was not the advanced guard of a ground invasion but a remnant of a long-standing arrangement whereby Turkish troops have been deployed deep inside Kurdish Iraq. > > So as the phoney war along this mountainous frontier continues with Ankara threatening a massive assault of northern Iraq and world leaders urging restraint, the reality is Turkish troops are already well inside Iraq. > > And what’s more, they are here with the clear approval of the local peshmerga who build bases alongside the Turkish positions and fly their Kurdish flags next to Turkish ones. > > At four large bases built on hilltops with commanding views, the Turkish army has been deployed in northern Iraq for over ten years. Invited to come by local peshmerga commanders to help with the aftermath of various spasms of internecine fighting by Iraqi Kurds throughout the 1990s, the Turks never left. > > At the Bambarneh base, it was possible to count six main battle tanks, two self-propelled howitzers and numerous army trucks. > > At the Baroukh base a few miles up the road, sandbags had been painted with the strikingly vivid butterscotch camouflage favoured by Turkish commanders. > > And at Gerisor, the Turkish flag flew from Iraqi territory at a base built on a stunning hilltop reminiscent of the high ground chosen elsewhere in the Holy Land for crusaders redoubts. > > From these lofty positions the Turks hunt their enemies from the PKK — the Kurdish Workers Party — in an endless game of cat-and-mouse that clearly antagonises the local Kurdish population. > > “This is our land so why are these Turkish soldiers still here?” said Georgis el Khas, a 64-year-old teacher from the nearby village of Kani Mase. > > But what was striking was how the presence of the Turkish army in Kurdish Iraq might irk the local Kurds but it does not threaten to turn into armed resistance. > > The local peshmerga seemed to appreciate that their few rusty armoured troop carriers and Kalashnikov-toting foot soldiers would be no match for the Nato-trained army of Turkey. > > “They have warplanes and tanks and we only have our rifles,” Yeldah Sheba Yeldah, the 69-year-old mukhtar or chief of Kani Mase, grumbled. > > Forlornly he pointed at his own AK47 hanging on the wall of his sitting room. > > A Kurdish flag was tucked into its barrel. Back down the road, at Hurmadada the mobile Turkish patrol moved on after just a few hours. > > Locals said it scurried back to one of the local fixed bases leaving behind just some tank tracks scoured on the tarmac road. In most countries, the presence of a troops from a foreign power would be enough to spark alarm. > > But in punch-drunk Iraq, such norms do not apply and it was left to a local peshmerga sergeant to express how seriously Iraq viewed the deployment of a Turkish mobile patrol to Hurmadada. > > “They are not friendly, these Turks,” Sgt Deler Jamil said. “We had set up a checkpoint but they did not even stop.” > > Information appearing on [telegraph.co.uk](http://telegraph.co.uk) is the copyright of Telegraph Media Group Limited and must not be reproduced in any medium without licence. For the full copyright statement see Copyright ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2007, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-parliament-authorizes-military-operations-in-iraq/423085/53 "2007-10-27T17:42:01Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] “The British will never go to war over the Falklands, its the Scotch who are queer for sheep, after all. The British are quite sensible…” “Not to worry, have been talking to Ms Glaspie, US Ambassador, and she says no way they go to war over fucking Kuwait…” [/QUOTE] Actually I agree with the point you’re making but a couple of nitpicks,its the Welsh who have unnatural tendencies towards sheep and they get very offended if you try to take that away from them. Also Scots are actually British,as an Englishman who casually mentioned to his Scots father that he wasn’t British(I was only a kid alright !)I can assure you that they get a trifle annoyed if you say that. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2007, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-parliament-authorizes-military-operations-in-iraq/423085/54 "2007-10-27T17:55:42Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Story [here.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/17/AR2007101700967.html?hpid=topnews) The ostensible targets, of course, are the PKK, Turkish-Kurdish separatists who are using Iraqi Kurdistan as a refuge. [More current relevant GD thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=439709) [/QUOTE] Theres nothing ostensible about it ,no hidden agenda,no territorial ambitions . The PKK is a terrorist organisation who will quite happily kill an American or Brit or Albanian if it suits their purposes. They regulary murder Turks. Iraq has said that Turkey should not infringe Iraqs territorial integrity. In that case then Iraq should sort out their terrorist problem themselves otherwise it could be construed as the PKK having the tacit approval for their actions from the Iraqi government which could be seen as an act of war. Of course in the real world we know that that is not the case but that the Iraqi government, is through no fault of their own,physically incapable of restraining the PKKs actions. But you cant have your cake and eat it,if you cant walk the walk then let the Turks get on with it . While the Iraqi government is playing at politics people are dying. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turkish-parliament-authorizes-military-operations-in-iraq/423085.md?page=2)