# Turning Back Airplanes/Canceling Flights - Prudent, or Crying Wolf? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 2, 2004, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-back-airplanes-canceling-flights-prudent-or-crying-wolf/222263 "2004-01-02T11:59:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-back-airplanes-canceling-flights-prudent-or-crying-wolf/222263/21 "2004-01-02T20:28:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Broomstick \* > Still, I can’t figure out how much the US is strong-arming other governments on this issue. Certainly, on a certain level, we have a right to deny access to our airspace (as does every other sovereign country) but I can’t help but think this is being done is a very rude manner. I read the US is demanding armed guards on flights to the USA and at leat a couple of countries have refused and now the US government and those countries which have refused are looking for other ways acceptable to both sides. It seems to me the US government has been especially insensitive in telling other countries “_THIS_ is what you shall do”. It would have been better to work things out with them beforehand. Regarding the specific instances we are discussing I do not believe we have sufficient information to jusdge whether the US acted reasonably or not. If they had some serious information that we don’t know about then it might be justified but again, it all points at clumsy handling. You would think passengers are screened sufficiently. Regarding the pilots I would think the USA can easily demand any pilot flying to the USA pass a security screening too. Unless and until we get more information supporting these actions they look like clumsy actions which only cause trouble for no gain. One thing is for sure: the climate of insecurity is getting worse, not better. The aim of terrorists is not to kill people but to make people live in fear. Those who believed the USA invading Iraq and confronting the rest of the world would scare their enemies shitless and would make America feel safe again. . . it seems they were wrong. America does not feel safer now than a year ago. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-back-airplanes-canceling-flights-prudent-or-crying-wolf/222263/22 "2004-01-02T20:48:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > The aim of terrorists is not to kill people but to make people live in fear. Althoug I don’t agree completely, you make a point with that. It can be seen as one of their aims to destabilize by all means the normality in the targetted nations. Creating a sense of fear and insecurity is certainly part of that. It must be said the the US is good at playing right into their game at any front they can possibly do. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-back-airplanes-canceling-flights-prudent-or-crying-wolf/222263/23 "2004-01-02T22:24:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > \*\* > Permit me to smile. > \*\* Have a blast. Uh, maybe there’s a better way to phrase that… ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-back-airplanes-canceling-flights-prudent-or-crying-wolf/222263/24 "2004-01-02T22:30:21Z")
I don’t think so. Nevertheless… Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-back-airplanes-canceling-flights-prudent-or-crying-wolf/222263/25 "2004-01-02T22:40:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Attrayant \* > \*\*I think the TSA (or Homeland Über Sekurity) is just trying to stay visible by pretending that it’s doing something. “Look how effective we are, we’ve cancelled three flights last month!” \*\* > > \*Originally posted by chappachula \* > **After a few more cries of wolf, the people who make decisions will probably decide to lighten up a bit, and demand more specific information before taking any actions, because of public outcry at the inconvenience. Then there will be another successful hijacking, or other terror attack, and the public outcry will be exactly the opposite.** It’s unfortunate, but the last couple of years has made me cynical enough to believe that all of this is just political gamesmanship for public benefit. Rather than viewing these cancelled flights as crying wolf, though, I wonder if they aren’t designed to undercut the possibility of the recently-declared orange alert being perceived as crying wolf. In other words: “We’ve raised the alert level to orange a couple of times, and nothing has happened. Time to raise it again for the holidays. Hey, look, everybody’s making fun of us. Let’s actually _do_ something this time to emphasize how serious we are! Then they won’t laugh the next time we go to orange.” Like I said, it’s unfortunate that I should be so cynical as to believe there’s a possibility that something like this is going on. I’m not saying it _is_; I’m just saying it’s _possible._ > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by chappachula \* > I wouldn’t want to be the senior decision makers–they are damned if they do, and damned if they dont._\* This, however, I agree with completely. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-back-airplanes-canceling-flights-prudent-or-crying-wolf/222263/26 "2004-01-02T23:06:20Z")
Originally posted by sailor The aim of terrorists is not to kill people but to make people live in fear. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > Althoug I don’t agree completely, you make a point with that. It can be seen as one of their aims to destabilize by all means the normality in the targetted nations. Creating a sense of fear and insecurity is certainly part of that. > > It must be said the the US is good at playing right into their game at any front they can possibly do. I am afraid you do not understand the reality and definition of “terrorism”. Killing people is only the means to the end which is terror. to this end they will use whatever means they find effective. That is what terrorism is no matter what means you use. Killing people is murder and it is only additionally terrorism if it instills fear in the population. the objective of the terrorists is terror, not killing a few Americans. In that sense the terrorists and the government both benefit from the fear of the population. the terrorists are getting what they want and the government is getting popular support. The worse things get the more people will rally around the present government. Both President Bush and Bin laden are getting what they want when things get worse. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-back-airplanes-canceling-flights-prudent-or-crying-wolf/222263/27 "2004-01-02T23:10:18Z")
Not the whole truth. Fear as a result of murder serves the agenda behind terrorism. Which is about money, power and political and economical goals. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-back-airplanes-canceling-flights-prudent-or-crying-wolf/222263/28 "2004-01-03T02:37:50Z")
From the _Sydney Morning Hearald_ we have [this.](http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/01/03/1072908941801.html) > [@](#): > > Suited-up jet fighter pilots are on high alert at bases across the United States in constant readiness to intercept - and shoot down if necessary - any hijacked commercial airliners, officials said today. Hmm… well, what _else_ are you going to do with a suicide-hijacker? I can just see it: Hijacker: “Allah Akbar! I am here to kill the Great Satan.” _Sound of boxcutter slicing and dicing_ “Praise Allah, I am now in control of this Boeing 777 and ready to use the tool of the infidel Jew-lovers against them! A martyr’s death for me! Ha-ha!” USAF: “OK, buddy, pull over to that cloud over there immediately or we shoot - I want to see your license and registration for that vehicle” Hijacker: "Curses! Foiled! I was going to smash this jet into a vital building or important landmark, but now that the puny F-16 is here I must surrender! Oh, the shame, the shame! Nope, I just don’t buy it - if the guy is planning to die the only way to stop him is to kill him, as far as I can see. I just don’t see these guys cooperating, do you? Now, here’s a scary bit: > [@](#): > > Eberhart said the pilots were training several times a week in readiness to shoot down a commercial airliner if needed. > > “You know, you’re up behind this airplane that has hundreds of innocent people - men, women, children, innocent - and now you’ve been told to shoot it down,” he said. “That is much different than somebody you think is a threat to you who you are about to shoot.” You have to wonder about this. I mean, what if someone makes a mistake? You _know_ they’re going to claim terrorists were aboard regardless. Yet - they could very well be put in that situation. And, bad as it would be to shoot down a US airplane, shooting down one flying under foreign flag would be … well, “messy” doesn’t quite describe it. A disaster. No matter what proof there might be, _someone_ is going to claim it was fabricated, there’s the diplomatic angle… yes, a grand SNAFU crossed with a FUBAR. Not that this is _really_ news - they’ve been beating this into the heads of pilots for over two years that they have the authority to shoot to kill. So far, hasn’t happened despite people busting restricted airspace fairly often. > [@](#): > > According to some media reports, NORAD has even rented commercial airliners to mount intercepts of simulated hijackings over American territory. Odd, this is the first mention I have heard of this… What media reports, and where? > [@](#): > > “The president made the decision, on my recommendation,” Vice-President Dick Cheney told NBC News five days after September 11. Ah. That confirms what I’ve long suspected - Bush is not really running things, he’s doing what he’s told. You know, I get two feelings about this 1. They’re using the media to tell the Bad Guys "We’re onto you, and we’re serious - we will kill you short of your goals if you attempt this - or - 1. This is all fuss and bluster and while we may not have our pants down around our ankles anymore maybe we left the back door unlocked or a window open and Something Nasty is going to crawl in that way. **Aldebaran** - you say you are reading French sites on this - can you point me to them? I’d like to read them for myself. Yes, contrary to rumor some of us Americans can read languages other than English. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-back-airplanes-canceling-flights-prudent-or-crying-wolf/222263/29 "2004-01-03T03:21:32Z")
I have an idea. Fit each airplane with a PIN device. Every so often or when the cabin door opens or similar events, the pilot has 30 seconds to enter the PIN or the plane goes into autopilot and cannot be controlled by the pilot. The PIN is not permanent for the plane but is a different one for each flight. A better version would be that the plane goes into autopilot and can be controlled from the fighter planes. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-back-airplanes-canceling-flights-prudent-or-crying-wolf/222263/30 "2004-01-03T05:06:23Z")
I’m confused. I thought that the capture of Saddam made America safer. Now I hear all these stories about cancelled flights and elevated alert levels. Maybe Howard Dean was right after all. ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-back-airplanes-canceling-flights-prudent-or-crying-wolf/222263/31 "2004-01-03T05:55:14Z")
So Broomstick, I guess you’re saying they shouldn’t shoot them down. I believe I missed your proposed alternate solution. ---
**Author:** ![Berkut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Berkut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Berkut)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-back-airplanes-canceling-flights-prudent-or-crying-wolf/222263/32 "2004-01-03T05:59:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > **the plane goes into autopilot and cannot be controlled by the pilot. The PIN is not permanent for the plane but is a different one for each flight.** What if it happened by mistake, with noone around to control it? How is the airplane going to avoid ice, thunderstorms, ash, etc.? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-back-airplanes-canceling-flights-prudent-or-crying-wolf/222263/33 "2004-01-03T06:24:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > \*\*The most amusing is that most of the “suspicious” names on Air France flights - which caused if I recall well 6 flights to be cancelled - were in fact travelling diplomats. > > The CIA/FBI can’t even keep record of the personnel of the diplomatic posts of the “so extremely dangerous and suspicious Arab nations”. > > How could they ever keep record of “names of possible terrorists”. > > What a good joke, once again. > Salaam. A \*\* Diplomats have long been used as a conduit for intelligence gathering and espionage. Type in “diplomat,kicked out” and see what you get. I have interviewed a number of people in the transportation industry since 9/11 (and continue to do so). The only joke here is a group of cyber typist who think they know more than the combined intelligence gathering capabilities of the United States Government and its allies. You get your information from a magazine or a TV anchor who is reading something off a tele-prompt that was typed in 30 minutes by someone equally clueless. It’s hard to say this without being rude but reality went on vacation when this thread started. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-back-airplanes-canceling-flights-prudent-or-crying-wolf/222263/34 "2004-01-03T06:33:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Frostillicus \* > \*\*I’m confused. I thought that the capture of Saddam made America safer. Now I hear all these stories about cancelled flights and elevated alert levels. Maybe Howard Dean was right after all. \*\* Well, let see, This is a **real** tough one to figure out. Let’s say there are 20 bad guys out there and you get rid of 1. Are you safer? Yes. Are you completely safe? No. Got it now? ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-back-airplanes-canceling-flights-prudent-or-crying-wolf/222263/35 "2004-01-03T06:42:51Z")
One thing that really upset me was the news about a BA flight that was escorted by jets, I can´t imagine the reaction of the passengers in that situation, that there´s a possibility that either, someone inside the plane blows it up, or the guys outside shoot it down. That´s some freaking emotional stress to be put through, both for the people inboard and the people awaiting their families/friends at the airport; all that better be founded on very good reasons but, so far, I haven´t seen anything remotely compilant with that. As for the consecuences of this, to begin with, expect a lot less tourism this year. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-back-airplanes-canceling-flights-prudent-or-crying-wolf/222263/36 "2004-01-03T06:48:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Magiver \* > **I have interviewed a number of people in the transportation industry since 9/11 (and continue to do so). The only joke here is a group of cyber typist who think they know more than the combined intelligence gathering capabilities of the United States Government and its allies.** Yet, many of those cyber-typist beat the US intelligence on the Iraqi WMD affair. Least you forgot, the US goverment said there where WMD, “a group of cyber typist” said there weren´t, facts have shown the later to be true. Just because the goverment says so, it isn´t so, necessarily. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-back-airplanes-canceling-flights-prudent-or-crying-wolf/222263/37 "2004-01-03T07:07:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ale \* > \*\*One thing that really upset me was the news about a BA flight that was escorted by jets, I can´t imagine the reaction of the passengers in that situation, that there´s a possibility that either, someone inside the plane blows it up, or the guys outside shoot it down. That´s some freaking emotional stress to be put through, both for the people inboard and the people awaiting their families/friends at the airport; all that better be founded on very good reasons but, so far, I haven´t seen anything remotely compilant with that. > > As for the consecuences of this, to begin with, expect a lot less tourism this year. \*\* You must get upset easily. The F-16s can, and most likely did, ‘escort’ the plane from a distance of several miles _behind_ the airliner. Flying right next to the airliner serves no purpose (except in the movies, so you can fit all the planes in one nice shot), but hanging back puts you in a firing position, should the need arise. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-back-airplanes-canceling-flights-prudent-or-crying-wolf/222263/38 "2004-01-03T07:12:39Z")
Yes, I know, the people on the plane may not notice; but when the people awaiting at the airport hear in the news how BA flight XXX is being escorted by fighters… well, try to put yourself in that position. ---
**Author:** ![jadagul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dbc845/32.png) [@jadagul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jadagul)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-back-airplanes-canceling-flights-prudent-or-crying-wolf/222263/39 "2004-01-03T08:02:54Z")
Someone asked why, on the cancelled flights, they didn’t just search the baggage and person of the individuals they suspected. Two possible reasons: First, a search wouldn’t reveal the person’s intentions. The really nasty thing about the 9/11 hijackings is that they were done with objects the hijackers were allowed to bring on the plane. You would have to detain the suspects until you could do security checks on them. Second, the fact that you’ve caught _some_ terrorists doesn’t mean you’ve caught them all. Using the example of the 9/11 hijackings again: suppose US officials had noticed that one of the people on the plane that crashed into the WTC was a threat. They pull him off the plane, let the other passengers take off. The remaining hijackers take over the plane and crash it. Alternately, they hold the plane until they do checks on everyone. They (with luck) find the other hijackers, and protect the WTC (from one plane, at least). The upshot: finding a terrorist on a plane is evidence that a terror cell has plans for the plane; you want to disrupt all the plans, not just take out one of the planners. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-back-airplanes-canceling-flights-prudent-or-crying-wolf/222263/40 "2004-01-03T08:21:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SmackFu \* > \*\*So Broomstick, I guess you’re saying they shouldn’t shoot them down. I believe I missed your proposed alternate solution. \*\* When come back bring reading comprehension. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-back-airplanes-canceling-flights-prudent-or-crying-wolf/222263.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-back-airplanes-canceling-flights-prudent-or-crying-wolf/222263.md?page=3)