# Turning point of WWII **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 8, 2003, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-point-of-wwii/186915 "2003-07-08T02:15:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-point-of-wwii/186915/41 "2003-07-09T04:18:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hometownboy \* > **Well, back in 1962, I had a 7th grade teacher who was just young enough to not be eligible to fight in WWII and was a HUGE WWII buff. Though you can follow chains of causality for a great length, he picked the assasination of Reinhard Heydrich in 1942 in Prague as the key point. According to him, Hitler delayed the onset of the attack on Russia to punish the Czechs and thus fell afoul of the dread Russian winter which was a significant factor in slowing the blitzkrieg to the point where the soviets could rally at Stalingrad, etc.** I think you are getting two different events mixed up. Heydrich’s assasination was in May, 1942. Operation _Barbarossa_ was launched on June 23, 1941. Heydrich’s assasination _did_ provoke horrific reprisals – entire towns were slaughtered. It was, however not connected with delaying the Russian invasion. You are probably thinking about Yugoslavia. The Yugoslav king had bowed to an “alliance” with Germany in early 1941. The terms were so humilitating that officers staged a coup and repudiated the treaty. Hitler was enraged, and delayed _Barbarossa_ to invade Yugoslavia. The Twelfth Army carried out the operation in April, 1941. Organized resistance was quiickly overcome, but the continuing partisan and sabotage efforts required large occupation forces and was a drain on the Germans throughout the war. In addition, the Twelfth Army and supporting _Luftwaffe_ units had to be re-deployed and the material build-up necessary for _Barbarossa_ was disrupted. **Ringo** , what you seem to be saying is that any German effort into Russia would have been doomed by the winter. Perhaps, but remember that the Winter of 1941-1942 was a historically bad winter. And also, the plan was to have the German (and allied) troops in Winter quarters in the Russian cities by then. I think what **Hometownboy** ’s teacher and others have suggested, is that if the original plans of starting in April had been followed, the German Army would have done exactly that. They came very close even starting two months late. ---
**Author:** ![Ringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/779978/32.png) [@Ringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ringo)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-point-of-wwii/186915/42 "2003-07-09T04:25:03Z")
Agh! Hamster dancing. What I’d like to see is someone demonstrating how a diversion of forces in either the case of 1) pursuing the SS Chief’s assasination squad (which I doubt) or 2) assisting Italy (which I kinda sorta doubt) truly delayed the debut of Barbarossa. My own, ever so humble, opinion is that the unplanned delay preventing German victory in the East argument is hollow, and that Germany never adequately planned or equipped for what it would really take. Same as with knocking out Britain. I see on preview that **Little Nemo** _has_ posted that Yugoslavian travails _did_ delay Barbarossa. Hmmm…, whadya think, pal? Can that be singled out as the reason Hitler failed in the East? ---
**Author:** ![Ringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/779978/32.png) [@Ringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ringo)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-point-of-wwii/186915/43 "2003-07-09T04:28:38Z")
And **PBW** ’s post wasn’t there yet when I previewed again. OK, might have to regroup tomorrow. Come back for more entertainment, folks; we’ll be here all week. ---
**Author:** ![Lennon\_Lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f04885/32.png) [@Lennon\_Lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lennon_Lives)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-point-of-wwii/186915/44 "2003-07-09T04:34:39Z")
## quote: Originally posted by Lennon Lives BTW, good book is “The 900 days of Stalingrad” ## LL It is a good book. Unfortunately it’s not about Stalingrad. It’s about the siege of Leningrad . [http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t)…=glance&s=books - Tamerlane * * * :smack: Duh! Do I feel stupid? Thanks for setting the record (and me) straight Tamerlane 🙂 LL ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-point-of-wwii/186915/45 "2003-07-09T06:30:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > **2. Midway. The Japanese were on the offensive in the Pacific until June 1942. The Americans were on the offensive afterwards, because of what happened at Midway. There are few clearer turning points in the history of warfare. Coral Sea clearly diverted the Japanese offensive, but they were still ON the offensive until the catastrophic defeat at Midway.** Whilst not being a great WWII scholar, might I tentatively suggest that perhaps a small “assist” might be credited to Col. Dolittle’s raid on Tokyo. My understanding is, that although the direct impact of the raid was at best slight, the morale effects, and perhaps the effects on some Japanese strategic and tactical decisions out-weighted this. After the raid the Japanese pulled some ships and planes back to the Home Islands to defend them – forces that would have been more effective on the offensive. The raid may also have had an effect on the Japanese decision to try and eliminate the US carriers (to prevent another such attack on the Home Islands), and may have spurred Japanese Admiral Yamamoto’s move on Midway in an effort to draw out and destroy the US Pacific Fleet carriers. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-point-of-wwii/186915/46 "2003-07-09T13:42:40Z")
It could be argued that the breaking of the Japanese code was the turning point in the Pacific theatre. This lead not only to the success at Midway but through out the rest of the war as the Japanese never figured out that the US had broken their code. So when we decoded that the “Midway is running out of fresh water” transmission, the tide started to turn. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-point-of-wwii/186915/47 "2003-07-09T15:40:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Hmmm…, whadya think, pal? Can that be singled out as the reason Hitler failed in the East? In my humble opinion, Hitler’s failure was due to Hitler. I can’t recall the source but someone once said that Hitler only made plans for events that would occur in the next ninety days or twenty years in the future. He had no mid-game. All of Hitler’s campaigns were based on achieving immediate victories. He never thought of a plan based on a series of comparitive advantages. To reuse the chess analogy I made above, Hitler tried to put his opponent in check on every move. The disadvantages of this mindset were numerous: the Germans were habitually unprepared for campaigns that went longer than they had planned on; the constant changing of goals diluted the force that could be brought against any specific goal; the Germans did far too little of the necessary R&D on developing new weapon systems; and the focus of complete victory caused other lesser but valuable possiblities to be ignored. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-point-of-wwii/186915/48 "2003-07-09T17:12:44Z")
Burghalter: “What do you prefer, Klink - an engagement with a beautiful Fräulein or a chess game with a general who can transfer you to the Russian front?” Klink: “White for you, general?” ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-point-of-wwii/186915/49 "2003-07-09T19:35:24Z")
The turning point was the sucess of the Allied codebrakers- which directly led to the sucess of Midway, and was a massive advantage for the Allies in Europe. The biggest blunder/turning point was Operation Barbarossa. Hitler started a second war he coudn’t win, even with the massive blunders of the Soviets in the first 4 months-- the Soviet winters and long supply lines doomed the efforts. Those who forget history. . . For Japan it was Pearl Harbor. Even Yamamoto knew that long-term they did not have a chance. Tellingly, it was Ultra decripts which led to his plane being hunted and shot down by P-38’s. Japanese military leadership started to believe their own press clippings and ignored too many rational voices explaing the patent disparity between the countries. The biggest allied blunders: Stalin shredding his Army’s leadership in the 30’s on his insane purges. Stalin ignoring numerous explict and detailed warnings of Operation Barbarossa and nearly getting his butt handed to him for it. UK’s sending unescorted battleships and heavy cruisers to the slaughter against japanese air power. Not to mention the inept defense by the allies of their territories in the opening stages of the war. War equipment debacles: early US submarine torpedos (Navy brass stikes once again). German Me110,210,410 varients- easy pickings for rival fighters. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-point-of-wwii/186915/50 "2003-07-09T21:27:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NoClueBoy \* > \*\*Good point, **Philster**. At Midway, the TBFs were getting slaughtered, the island base itself was still under real threat of invasion, Zeros were “on the deck” taking care of the TBFs, partly cloudy skies partially obscured high level visibilty, … > > then, imagine being on deck of one of the Japanese carriers, hearing the screeching noise of SBD divebrakes, and looking up just in time to see the bomb being released from the USN dive bomber. > > All the planning, counter planning, second guessing, taking a gamble, etc… culminates in a window a few minutes long. > > \*\* Close. True, the bloody sacrifice of the TBFs brought the Zeros down to the deck, but they had several minutes before the dive bombers attacked, time in which they could conceivably have climed to altitude and disrupted the dive bombers. The reason they didn’t is simple. _Yorktown’s_ torpedo bombers were the only group that went in escorted, Waldron and Lindsey ( _Hornet_ and _Enterprise_ ) attacked solo and were slaughtered. Jimmy Thatch, inventor of the famous “Thatch Weave”, was able to keep his Wildcats with Massey’s torpedo bombers and it was the furball that resulted that kept the Zeros at surface level so that the SBDs could attack unhindered. It didn’t help Massey much, _Yorktown’s_ TBFs were splashed just like _Hornet’s_ and _Enterprise’s_, but it did allow Leslie and McClusky to get into position to attack. Leslie led _Yorktown’s_ SBDs against _Kaga_ ( without a bomb, of all things! Faulty wiring had caused Leslie’s plane to jetison it’s bomb shortly after takeoff, Leslie straffed _Kaga_, but the rest of his men turned the Japanese carrier into a pyre.) and McClusky attacked _Akagi_ and _Soryu_ two minutes later( another thing that most history books get backwards ). Shortly thereafter, Japanese carrier strength off Midway was limited to only _Hiryu_. _Yorktown’s_ planes, flying off _Enterprise_, finished her off late that afternoon. None of this is meant in any way to lessen the tremendous sacrifice made by the torpedo pilots. 41 planes attacked the Japanese fleet and only 6 returned. However, Thatch’s vital contribution to the battle is too often forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![detop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bcef8e/32.png) [@detop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/detop)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-point-of-wwii/186915/51 "2003-07-09T23:59:46Z")
Another supporter for Kursk as the turning point on the Russian front. My reasoning is this, Moscow 1941 showed that the Germans could be beat (in winter, at the end of their logisitical tether). Stalingrad confirmed it. But Kursk… not only the Germans were beaten in summer (when they usually were at their best), at the place of their own choosing, BUT they were stopped dead cold and the Russians were able to counterattack successfully and didn’t stop 'til Berlin. And **Ringo** , starting _Barbarossa_ early wouldn’t have make a difference. They still would have had to wait until the mud dried (usually in May). **elf6c** , the Me 110 family were not mistakes. Their initial **use** was. They more than redeemed themselves as bomber killers. And for all the Midway fans out there, the biggest loss at Midway for the Japanese was not the carriers. It was the pilots. And most of the torpedo bombers lost were not TBFs, they were TBDs 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-point-of-wwii/186915/52 "2003-07-10T00:10:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by detop \* > \*\*…And most of the torpedo bombers lost were not TBFs, they were TBDs 😃 \*\* :smack: I hate making that kind of mistake. You’re right, of course, the only Avengers in the battle launched from Midway Island itself. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-point-of-wwii/186915/53 "2003-07-10T00:12:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hometownboy \* > He also liked the point at which the Luftwaffe switched from primarily bombing radar stations and airfields in favor of bombing civilian populations as a key mistake in the Battle of Britain. He opined that if the Germans had been able to complete the knockout of radar stations, they could have attacked before fighters could be deployed and might have eventually gained air superiority necessary for the invasion of Britain. This is not the first I’ve heard of this theory. I once read a book - long ago, and I’ve forgotten the details. It was written, IIRC, by a WWII British Ace (Jimmy Johnson?) who went on to become a General in the RAF, and the author clearly believed that the RAF Fighter Command was within days of being destroyed as an effective force when the Luftwaffe switched its targets from airfields and radar stations to London. I’ll do a few searches to see if I can verify author name and title of the book, but it’s long enough ago that I might not remember enough details to come up with anything. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-point-of-wwii/186915/54 "2003-07-10T00:14:05Z")
Wasn’t Ensign Gay in a TBF? The guy who saw everything while floating under his seat cover… Later in the war, TBFs were very effective, btw. ---
**Author:** ![detop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bcef8e/32.png) [@detop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/detop)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-point-of-wwii/186915/55 "2003-07-10T00:24:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NoClueBoy \* > \*\*Wasn’t Ensign Gay in a TBF? The guy who saw everything while floating under his seat cover… > > Later in the war, TBFs were very effective, btw. \*\* No, Torpedo Squadron 8 was flying [TBDs Devastator]([http://www.centurytel.net/midway/Carrier\_Squadrons/Torpedo\_Eight/in\_color.html#T-16](http://www.centurytel.net/midway/Carrier_Squadrons/Torpedo_Eight/in_color.html#T-16) (BuNo 1506) 4 June 1942) as seen on this page (scroll down for pictures). The [TBF/TBM Avenger](http://www.warbirdalley.com/tbf.htm) received its baptism of fire at Midway (all TBFs at Midway were land-based). And yes, it was a very effective plane. Some of them are still flying, I believe, as water-bombers. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-point-of-wwii/186915/56 "2003-07-10T00:24:59Z")
Torpedo 8 flew [Douglas Devastators](http://www.boeing.com/history/mdc/tbd.htm)(TBDs), as did the pilots off _Yorktown_ and _Enterprise_. The Avenger(TBF) squadron on Midway was the first operational unit with the new planes, IIRC. Shortly thereafter, the Avenger would replace the obsolete Devastators throughout the fleet. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-point-of-wwii/186915/57 "2003-07-10T00:26:19Z")
Damn you detop! Beat me by a hair! 😉 😛 ---
**Author:** ![detop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bcef8e/32.png) [@detop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/detop)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-point-of-wwii/186915/58 "2003-07-10T00:27:47Z")
😃 ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-point-of-wwii/186915/59 "2003-07-10T00:42:26Z")
The internet is a wonderful thing. James Edgar “Johnnie” (not Jimmy…oops) Johnson, top allied ace in WWII, and later Air Vice Marshal. [[bio](http://users.senet.com.au/~wingman/johnson.html)] It seems he missed the Battle of Britain with a broken collarbone, of all things. But I’d have to guess his views on WWII aviation are as authoritative as anyones. The book: [Full Circle: The Story of Air Fighting](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0304358606/qid=1057797753/sr=1-6/ref=sr_1_6/104-2925268-3641505?v=glance&s=books) - from the description, I’m almost certain it’s the book I’m remembering. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-point-of-wwii/186915/60 "2003-07-10T00:49:59Z")
Man, I’m learning (and relearning) some cool stuff on this thread. Thanks, Dopes! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-point-of-wwii/186915.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turning-point-of-wwii/186915.md?page=4)