# Turns out older stuff was better made. Like 20 times better. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 12, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turns-out-older-stuff-was-better-made-like-20-times-better/658178 "2013-05-12T22:23:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turns-out-older-stuff-was-better-made-like-20-times-better/658178/81 "2013-05-15T02:06:19Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > It’s available. I have no idea what point **smee goan** was attempting to make or the reason for the spoiler box. He’s pointing out yet another example of garbage that was made a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turns-out-older-stuff-was-better-made-like-20-times-better/658178/82 "2013-05-15T02:19:07Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > Telephones used to last decades. :rolleyes: Ever tried to beat someone to death with a smart phone? I rest my case. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turns-out-older-stuff-was-better-made-like-20-times-better/658178/83 "2013-05-15T02:24:42Z")
> [@misterW](#): > > Rust is a non issue in the north east? That I have never heard. Ford Rangers are notorious for having the frames rot out behind the rear wheels. > > How long are you keeping a vehicle before proclaiming that rust is a non issue? I live in Canada, which is, well, snowy, and they salt the roads and all that, and it’s been twenty years since I or anyone in my family ha a car with rust problems. Cars are visibly, **obviously** not nearly as rusty as they used to be. when I was a kid a car with rust problems was a commonplace sight; now it’s rare enough that I find it a surprising thing to see. I typically drive a car until it dies. My last car (a 2008) I sold at about 100,000 miles; the only before (1994) I had to 160,000, the one before that (1991) 180,000 (I think, I’m converting from KM to miles in my head.) Current one (2012) is up to 50,000. I didn’t have a rust problem with any of them. ---
**Author:** ![misterW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@misterW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misterW)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turns-out-older-stuff-was-better-made-like-20-times-better/658178/84 "2013-05-15T02:55:09Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I live in Canada, which is, well, snowy, and they salt the roads and all that, and it’s been twenty years since I or anyone in my family ha a car with rust problems. Cars are visibly, **obviously** not nearly as rusty as they used to be. when I was a kid a car with rust problems was a commonplace sight; now it’s rare enough that I find it a surprising thing to see. > > I typically drive a car until it dies. My last car (a 2008) I sold at about 100,000 miles; the only before (1994) I had to 160,000, the one before that (1991) 180,000 (I think, I’m converting from KM to miles in my head.) Current one (2012) is up to 50,000. I didn’t have a rust problem with any of them. I think we need to define modern. Because I defy you to find a early to mid 1990’s pickup in upstate NY without rust issues. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turns-out-older-stuff-was-better-made-like-20-times-better/658178/85 "2013-05-15T03:23:01Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > How would you (and the quoted posters) respond to post #54, then? Specifically, the idea that a lot of computerized parts make it more of a headache for an owner, especially when he absolutely needs professionals to fix it (as opposed to the old days of car do-it-yourself repairs)? Today on the way home I was car watching for this thread. Saw a few cars from the 70’s, a bunch from the 80’s and I lost count of cars from the 90’s. I started driving in the 1960’s. how many 40 year old cars did I seeing everyday service then? Zero. How many 20 and 30 year old cars did I see in daily service? Again zero. Ten to fifteen year old were around, but not lots and many of those 15 year old burned oil like there was no tomorrow. (Now admittedly WWII did out a kink in the numbers but not to that extent) I few weeks back I went to a presentation put on by the state of California. They put up the factory service schedule for a Cadillac. Trust me when I tell you that if GM gave you a brand new Caddy with that service schedule and told you could keep the car for free if you just brought it in for every service, you would tell them no thanks. Some of the items listed were to inspect every 2 weeks! Oil changes every 2,000 miles. Pull the head and remove carbon at 40-50K miles. Tell me again how cars were better then. I keep forgetting. My 1989 Volvo 240 seated 5 had a 2.3L motor with 112 HP and got maybe 16MPG. My 2005 Volvo V70 has a 2.4L engine with 168 HP and gets about 28MPG on my daily driving. A 2013 Hyundai Sonata has a 2.4L engine with 198 HP and I can get 38-40MPG on my commute. Tell me again how cars in the old days were better. When somebody tells me they don’t build them like they used to my comment is Thank Og for that. ---
**Author:** ![misterW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@misterW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misterW)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turns-out-older-stuff-was-better-made-like-20-times-better/658178/86 "2013-05-15T03:34:31Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Today on the way home I was car watching for this thread. > Saw a few cars from the 70’s, a bunch from the 80’s and I lost count of cars from the 90’s. > I started driving in the 1960’s. how many 40 year old cars did I seeing everyday service then? Zero. > How many 20 and 30 year old cars did I see in daily service? Again zero. > Ten to fifteen year old were around, but not lots and many of those 15 year old burned oil like there was no tomorrow. > (Now admittedly WWII did out a kink in the numbers but not to that extent) > I few weeks back I went to a presentation put on by the state of California. They put up the factory service schedule for a Cadillac. > Trust me when I tell you that if GM gave you a brand new Caddy with that service schedule and told you could keep the car for free if you just brought it in for every service, you would tell them no thanks. > Some of the items listed were to inspect every 2 weeks! Oil changes every 2,000 miles. Pull the head and remove carbon at 40-50K miles. > Tell me again how cars were better then. I keep forgetting. > My 1989 Volvo 240 seated 5 had a 2.3L motor with 112 HP and got maybe 16MPG. > My 2005 Volvo V70 has a 2.4L engine with 168 HP and gets about 28MPG on my daily driving. > A 2013 Hyundai Sonata has a 2.4L engine with 198 HP and I can get 38-40MPG on my commute. > Tell me again how cars in the old days were better. > When somebody tells me they don’t build them like they used to my comment is Thank Og for that. I don’t think anyone is arguing that they haven’t improved in most ways. But the frame on my ford ranger would not have entirely rotted through had the steel been a bit more substantial. Also, the trend has been to engineer cars that make it more and more difficult for the at home mechanic to work on them. I understand neither of these issues is of terrible interest to most people. But there they are, nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turns-out-older-stuff-was-better-made-like-20-times-better/658178/87 "2013-05-15T04:46:52Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > It is really a question of “how much do I want to pay”? I can tell you that yes, by and large, the low end stuff for sale today is made with cheaper materials. Take faucets-a good American made faucet 40 years ago was of cast brass or bronze, with a heavy chrome plate. Sch a faucet will last \>50 years. The big box store low end facet today is made in China, and is of cast zinc, plated with chrome. Once the plating wears off, the zinc will corrode, and you throw it away and by a new one-the mfg.s say the service life is 8 years. Depends on the brand. My brother the plumber has very strong opinions about faucets and equipped his family members with _the good stuff_. Delta still makes solid metal faucets, and Kohler makes plastic crap. Here’s the thing though - the new designs are better. The 40 year old faucet used springs and washers and was very prone to dripping. Yeah, you can fix it if you know how. But a modern faucet will be much less prone to leaking due to the design. And you can buy quality toilets with astonishingly good service as [I wrote about my experience with a Gerber Powerflush unit with a Sloan Valve Flushmaster.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=676545) ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turns-out-older-stuff-was-better-made-like-20-times-better/658178/88 "2013-05-15T09:38:14Z")
> [@misterW](#): > > I don’t think anyone is arguing that they haven’t improved in most ways. > > But the frame on my ford ranger would not have entirely rotted through had the steel been a bit more substantial. > > Also, the trend has been to engineer cars that make it more and more difficult for the at home mechanic to work on them. > > I understand neither of these issues is of terrible interest to most people. But there they are, nonetheless. it isn’t how “substantial” the steel is, it’s the quality of the surface corrosion protection and the presence or lack of places for salt-bearing muck to get trapped. I used to work at a test lab and one of the things we offered was salt fog testing. you would be shocked at just how fast steel can rust in those conditions. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turns-out-older-stuff-was-better-made-like-20-times-better/658178/89 "2013-05-20T02:10:55Z")
> [@misterW](#): > > I think we need to define modern. Because I defy you to find a early to mid 1990’s pickup in upstate NY without rust issues. You’re complaining about rust on 20-year-old vehicles? ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turns-out-older-stuff-was-better-made-like-20-times-better/658178/90 "2013-05-20T02:58:16Z")
> [@misterW](#): > > This is referring to the engine, which is not the limiting factor where I live. If you live anyplace that salts the roads, the body will deteriorate far faster. Bullshit. I grew up in the Rust Belt, and there’s a very good reason why it’s called that. In the 1970s, cars began to corrode a few years after they rolled off the lot. Rustproofing businesses where everywhere. Cars that weren’t eaten away by the tin worm were in the minority. Today, in the Northeast, the sight of 1970s-style rust is very rare. Businesses like Ziebart are as forgotten as radio repairmen. Rust just isn’t the problem it once was. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turns-out-older-stuff-was-better-made-like-20-times-better/658178/91 "2013-05-20T03:22:55Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Ever tried to beat someone to death with a smart phone? Ever try to carry a Western Electric 500 in your pocket? Those old phones were built to last because they weren’t owned by the consumer. They were rented out by the phone company. The phones were durable because they knew the people renting them abused the hell out of them, like one would expect for any object they didn’t own. Also, technology didn’t change at a fast enough rate to render those old phones obsolete. Phones were also designed to be easily refurbished; just blow out the dust, pop on a new cover, and give it to a new subscriber. That’s what they did with old Model 302s; when the 500 was released in the 1950s, and nobody wanted the old 302, new covers that looked like a 500 was placed on the pre-war 302s that made their way back to the shops, and they went out again for 30+ more years of service. It wasn’t as if the technology changed much; I have a 302 that still works. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turns-out-older-stuff-was-better-made-like-20-times-better/658178/92 "2013-05-20T03:34:05Z")
> [@misterW](#): > > I think we need to define modern. Because I defy you to find a early to mid 1990’s pickup in upstate NY without rust issues. And when I was a kid growing up in Upstate New York, I could have said “I defy you to find a vehicle that’s more than five years old without rust issues.” in the 1970s and 1980s. Hell, three years. Even my grandmother’s only-driven-to-church-on-Sunday 1976 Plymouth Volare was starting to see some tin worm action when my parents sold it in the late 1990s … with 10,000 miles on the odometer. And that car, as little as it was driven, was a piece of shit. Sure, the slant six engine was bulletproof, but one time, as I was taking it out to just get it a little bit of road time, **the power brakes failed**. Seriously, just like in the movies, I pressed down, and … foot to the floor, and nothing. I stopped through using the emergency brakes and downshifting. Goddamn, if that wasn’t a lemon, I don’t know what was. Again, when was the last time you saw a commercial for Ziebart, Rusty Jones, or whatever? ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turns-out-older-stuff-was-better-made-like-20-times-better/658178/93 "2013-05-20T13:52:15Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > Again, when was the last time you saw a commercial for Ziebart, Rusty Jones, or whatever? Ziebart still exists. They sell starters and fix windshields and install bedliners now. > **[Your Preferred Automotive Protection Provider](https://www.ziebart.com/)** > > Since 1959, Ziebart has been your local expert for all-things automotive, appearance and protection. From rust protection to detailing, paint protection to window tinting, we clean and protect your vehicle to help you avoid costly repairs in the... ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turns-out-older-stuff-was-better-made-like-20-times-better/658178/94 "2013-05-20T13:58:19Z")
Redacted. ---
**Author:** ![split\_p\_j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turns-out-older-stuff-was-better-made-like-20-times-better/658178/95 "2013-05-20T15:43:06Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > confirmation bias/rose tinted glasses, or whatever else. Cars are still the pre-eminent example of this, IMO. You’ll still find oldsters who believe that cars back in the '50s and '60s were “better built” than the ones today. invariably if you try to ask why, the answers come down to either “a parking lot fender-bender didn’t cost $2000 to fix” or something like the “engine was made from good, heavy-duty cast iron.” Both of which are bullshit. Yes, in a parking lot ding situation, you might be looking at a couple hundred bucks to fix a bent bumper and repaint a fender, but if you were in a collision at road speed, you were very likely to be maimed or fucking dead. It doesn’t matter how many feet of sheetmetal you have in front of you if it just impotently tears away and lets the colliding vehicle drive your steering column up through your fucking chin. > > as for the second one, the reason engines were lumps of cast iron wasn’t because someone said “hey, if we make the block out of this, it’ll last forever.” It was because gray iron was the easiest, cheapest, and most acceptable way to cast engine blocks and cylinder heads. The ability to make thin-wall castings, or aluminum castings just wasn’t feasible back then. and more to the point, those gray iron engine blocks really didn’t last all that long. gray iron is relatively soft, and cylinder taper set in fairly quickly (at least compared to modern engines.) Old engines could last a “long” time if you rebuilt them every 75,000 miles. if you didn’t, the cylinder taper (and resulting blow-by) would send your oil consumption through the roof. meanwhile, the engine in my Neon has 163,000 miles on it and uses less than 1/4 of a quart of oil in 6,000 miles. And that’s even after Nickel-and-Daimler got their talons into it. > > the last thing that irritates me is the old duffers who think old cars were better because “you could work on the damn things yourself.” Well, the only reason that was a “good” thing is because _the fucking things always needed work!_ with modern cars, all you need to do is keep an eye on the fluids and they’ll (figuratively) run forever. Well said. Just wanted to add that I’m 41, and from what I remember, the idea of non enthusiasts working on their own cars is kind of a myth. I do remember that every gas station had a garage attached, instead of a convenience store. ---
**Author:** ![split\_p\_j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turns-out-older-stuff-was-better-made-like-20-times-better/658178/96 "2013-05-20T16:04:33Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > And when I was a kid growing up in Upstate New York, I could have said “I defy you to find a vehicle that’s more than five years old without rust issues.” in the 1970s and 1980s. Hell, three years. Even my grandmother’s only-driven-to-church-on-Sunday 1976 Plymouth Volare was starting to see some tin worm action when my parents sold it in the late 1990s … with 10,000 miles on the odometer. And that car, as little as it was driven, was a piece of shit. Sure, the slant six engine was bulletproof, but one time, as I was taking it out to just get it a little bit of road time, **the power brakes failed**. Seriously, just like in the movies, I pressed down, and … foot to the floor, and nothing. I stopped through using the emergency brakes and downshifting. Goddamn, if that wasn’t a lemon, I don’t know what was. > > Again, when was the last time you saw a commercial for Ziebart, Rusty Jones, or whatever? I learned how to drive in a '79 Volare, my parents secondary car. Your story reminds me of what a POS it was, even thought it was only 8 years old at the time. Of course their primary car, a brand new '87 S-10 Blazer wasn’t much better! ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turns-out-older-stuff-was-better-made-like-20-times-better/658178/97 "2013-05-20T16:48:30Z")
I agree-with the advent of galvanized steel body metal, rust on cars ids pretty rare these days. Yet, when visiting old junkyards, I am struck by how many 1950’s cars have survived-out there in the open for decades. perhaps body metal was thicker then? ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turns-out-older-stuff-was-better-made-like-20-times-better/658178/98 "2013-05-20T18:01:53Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I agree-with the advent of galvanized steel body metal, rust on cars ids pretty rare these days. Yet, when visiting old junkyards, I am struck by how many 1950’s cars have survived-out there in the open for decades. perhaps body metal was thicker then? It was, but that’s not what’s in play here. Those cars aren’t decaying away all that fast because they’re not out being driven. See, the really insidious rust on a car is the stuff that starts from within. Driving around in winter (or even in wet weather) means road splash and slush/salt-laden dirt gets flung around by the tires and thrown into all of these little crevices and seams in the body. And if these areas of the body didn’t have proper drainage designed into them, that muck will just sit there and start eating away at the body from the inside out. Those 60 year old hulks in the scrapyard might be getting rained on occasionally, but that water isn’t getting up inside the sheetmetal. The paint is still protecting the outside. In fact, the poster child for a car that rusted almost instantly was the Vega. The funny part was, that was the first car GM made where the entire assembled body went through a multi-stage anti-corrosion dip treatment, but because of the aforementioned lack of drainage in the body assemblies, there were places the hot-dip primer couldn’t reach. Guess where the cars started rusting. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turns-out-older-stuff-was-better-made-like-20-times-better/658178/99 "2013-05-20T18:47:42Z")
> [@MLS](#): > > From [the CorningWare website:](http://www.corningware.com/index.asp?pageId=99) > > From their [Use and Care section:](http://www.corningware.com/index.asp?pageId=80) > I can use my pre-1990 Corning Ware on/in anything. Oops! I had no idea Corning Ware changed! ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turns-out-older-stuff-was-better-made-like-20-times-better/658178/100 "2013-05-20T19:11:34Z")
My [utility trailer](http://imageshack.us/a/img845/6714/p7091445.jpg)is three-quarters of a century old. It’s tailgate partially fell off this weekend due to hinge rust while I was towing rather quickly down a bumpy country road. They don’t make utility trailers the way they used to. That being said, although heavy simple items were often made better when compared to lightweight crap today, complex and high(er) tech items seem to be getting better and better – for example my Jeep towing the trailer has fewer problem (well, no problems at all other than one burned out tail light) when compared to older model vehicles that I have driven. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turns-out-older-stuff-was-better-made-like-20-times-better/658178.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/turns-out-older-stuff-was-better-made-like-20-times-better/658178.md?page=6)